Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

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5ky
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby 5ky » Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:28 pm

Matteliszt wrote:No. From what I've seen on Seperac, essays that receive < 4 either radically miss issues or radically misapply the law. There's not a lot of difference between a 4.0 and a 4.5 that I can tell. 40s 45s 50s 55s all seem pretty much interchangeable to me which is kind of terrifying because 45s are failing an 55s are passing. The only real difference I can tell is that the 40s and 45s come to the wrong conclusions in some of the issues. The sample answers NYBOLE releases always use the pleading standard from the question (I e no issue of material triable fact for summary judgment) so I think you could probably get some points for that as well.


essays in NY are scaled from the 0-10 grade up to the 40/45/50 etc. So a 5 on an essay isn't necessarily a 50. A 50 is just whatever the average for that essay question was (i.e. could be a 4, etc.).

And a 45 essay isn't failing. It's slightly below the average, but you don't even need to be average to pass, and that's assuming you just have an average MBE score. According to his little calculator thing, if you have a 140 scaled mbe, around average, and 25/50 on NYMC, you just need weighted scores of 45, 45, 45, 45, one 50, and then a 45 on the MPT to pass.

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Matteliszt
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby Matteliszt » Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:40 pm

5ky wrote:
Matteliszt wrote:No. From what I've seen on Seperac, essays that receive < 4 either radically miss issues or radically misapply the law. There's not a lot of difference between a 4.0 and a 4.5 that I can tell. 40s 45s 50s 55s all seem pretty much interchangeable to me which is kind of terrifying because 45s are failing an 55s are passing. The only real difference I can tell is that the 40s and 45s come to the wrong conclusions in some of the issues. The sample answers NYBOLE releases always use the pleading standard from the question (I e no issue of material triable fact for summary judgment) so I think you could probably get some points for that as well.


essays in NY are scaled from the 0-10 grade up to the 40/45/50 etc. So a 5 on an essay isn't necessarily a 50. A 50 is just whatever the average for that essay question was (i.e. could be a 4, etc.).

And a 45 essay isn't failing. It's slightly below the average, but you don't even need to be average to pass, and that's assuming you just have an average MBE score. According to his little calculator thing, if you have a 140 scaled mbe, around average, and 25/50 on NYMC, you just need weighted scores of 45, 45, 45, 45, one 50, and then a 45 on the MPT to pass.


Right. I think the key is just getting an average MBE. Your essays will likely be average if you're remotely prepared. I was unclear on the 50 is passing thing, but I also went back and looked and he has some where the passing score is a 47 or a 45. I am starting to think the little calculator thing is useless because the score is going to be based on what is average. So you're either average(passing) below average(failing) or above average(passing) and you have to average a passing score. Is that accurate?

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5ky
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby 5ky » Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:47 pm

What is the required average to pass is entirely dependent on your MBE and NYMC, though.

So any time you see that "required passing score," that number changes every time you change the MBE score.

So if you get a 150 scaled MBE, which is like top 1/3d, your passing average is absurdly low, like barely over 40, and that assumes 25/50 on NYMC. And a 40 is already scaled, so that could really be like a 3.5/10 if the average on the essay was a 4.5

ALso, there are some pretty egregious errors on the NYBOLE's "superior" example essays. The questions I have looked at have been fairly basic, and one of the superior answers clearly didn't know the rule for 2/3 of the calls, and came to the wrong conclusion

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stratocophic
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby stratocophic » Fri Jul 26, 2013 10:58 pm

Omerta wrote:
kaiser wrote:^^

That true? Gonna be honest. I've done like 1 MPT all summer, since I figured it requires no actual prep/memorization, and since its often different, I figured it was inefficient preparation anyway. Assuming I do 1 or 2 in the next 2 days, its really that easy you think?


I'm not gonna lie, I think I did 3. The thing is that the MPTs seem to NEVER include irrelevant material, so you can look at the questions, turn to the fake case, then apply the facts to the standard in the fake case. I think it's fairly easy to make sure you hit everything by just checking that you used all the sources. The cherry on top is that you don't need to know anything about the substantive law for the question.

It's probably beneficial to skim through a few problems just to check out the general form for the materials.

edit: Since there are a few GA people in this thread, do you agree that the GA essays seem fairly easy? Sometimes they can be a bit nitpicky (I'm looking at you, Georgia civil procedure), but it sounds like nothing compared to states like NY. All these NY people are freaking me out. The Barbri answers for GA essays are generally 3/4-1 page long.
Man doesn't even matter as far as I can tell, I've done the math and I think you can completely screw up the state stuff so long as you do well on the MBE and MPT.

150/200 pts MBE
65/88 pts MPT
and then all you need is at most 55/112 points on the essays, which is less than 50%.

Those aren't even unreasonable targets - that's only 73% of the points on the MPT, and check the average MBE for July 2012 in the link below. If you're any good at the MBE, you have even more slack.

https://www.gabaradmissions.org/georgia-bar-examination-statistics#0712

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electricfeel
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby electricfeel » Sat Jul 27, 2013 5:35 pm

stratocophic wrote:
Omerta wrote:
kaiser wrote:^^

That true? Gonna be honest. I've done like 1 MPT all summer, since I figured it requires no actual prep/memorization, and since its often different, I figured it was inefficient preparation anyway. Assuming I do 1 or 2 in the next 2 days, its really that easy you think?


I'm not gonna lie, I think I did 3. The thing is that the MPTs seem to NEVER include irrelevant material, so you can look at the questions, turn to the fake case, then apply the facts to the standard in the fake case. I think it's fairly easy to make sure you hit everything by just checking that you used all the sources. The cherry on top is that you don't need to know anything about the substantive law for the question.

It's probably beneficial to skim through a few problems just to check out the general form for the materials.

edit: Since there are a few GA people in this thread, do you agree that the GA essays seem fairly easy? Sometimes they can be a bit nitpicky (I'm looking at you, Georgia civil procedure), but it sounds like nothing compared to states like NY. All these NY people are freaking me out. The Barbri answers for GA essays are generally 3/4-1 page long.
Man doesn't even matter as far as I can tell, I've done the math and I think you can completely screw up the state stuff so long as you do well on the MBE and MPT.

150/200 pts MBE
65/88 pts MPT
and then all you need is at most 55/112 points on the essays, which is less than 50%.

Those aren't even unreasonable targets - that's only 73% of the points on the MPT, and check the average MBE for July 2012 in the link below. If you're any good at the MBE, you have even more slack.

https://www.gabaradmissions.org/georgia-bar-examination-statistics#0712


This seems to make sense. Emory's bar passage rate last year was 98% with two people failing. I have it confirmed by one of the Deans that those two people who failed were non-native English speakers who didn't go to undergrad in the US. Feeling pretty good.

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stratocophic
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby stratocophic » Sat Jul 27, 2013 7:32 pm

electricfeel wrote:
stratocophic wrote:
Omerta wrote:
kaiser wrote:^^

That true? Gonna be honest. I've done like 1 MPT all summer, since I figured it requires no actual prep/memorization, and since its often different, I figured it was inefficient preparation anyway. Assuming I do 1 or 2 in the next 2 days, its really that easy you think?


I'm not gonna lie, I think I did 3. The thing is that the MPTs seem to NEVER include irrelevant material, so you can look at the questions, turn to the fake case, then apply the facts to the standard in the fake case. I think it's fairly easy to make sure you hit everything by just checking that you used all the sources. The cherry on top is that you don't need to know anything about the substantive law for the question.

It's probably beneficial to skim through a few problems just to check out the general form for the materials.

edit: Since there are a few GA people in this thread, do you agree that the GA essays seem fairly easy? Sometimes they can be a bit nitpicky (I'm looking at you, Georgia civil procedure), but it sounds like nothing compared to states like NY. All these NY people are freaking me out. The Barbri answers for GA essays are generally 3/4-1 page long.
Man doesn't even matter as far as I can tell, I've done the math and I think you can completely screw up the state stuff so long as you do well on the MBE and MPT.

150/200 pts MBE
65/88 pts MPT
and then all you need is at most 55/112 points on the essays, which is less than 50%.

Those aren't even unreasonable targets - that's only 73% of the points on the MPT, and check the average MBE for July 2012 in the link below. If you're any good at the MBE, you have even more slack.

https://www.gabaradmissions.org/georgia-bar-examination-statistics#0712


This seems to make sense. Emory's bar passage rate last year was 98% with two people failing. I have it confirmed by one of the Deans that those two people who failed were non-native English speakers who didn't go to undergrad in the US. Feeling pretty good.
Just have to remember that CALI award/median isn't the goal. The goal is to be in approximately the 15th percentile of first time test takers, maybe 20th to be safe. If you don't hit every single issue in the essays, whatever. Being good at MC in general and the MBE topics is enough to carry you, so there's no need to worry if you can at least BS your way through the essays with good organization.

Easiest big jurisdiction I've seen in terms of requirements. IL is probably close since they only need 264/400 but even then their MPT counts for 1/3 of ours so they still have to know more state law to really be safe

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El Pollito
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby El Pollito » Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:52 am

If I get a scaled 165 on CA, how badly can I fuck up state essays?

09042014
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby 09042014 » Thu Jan 23, 2014 2:04 am

El Pollito wrote:If I get a scaled 165 on CA, how badly can I fuck up state essays?


Bottom 15% should get you a pass. Even lower if you can do barely passing for the performance tests.

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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby El Pollito » Thu Jan 23, 2014 2:13 am

Desert Fox wrote:
El Pollito wrote:If I get a scaled 165 on CA, how badly can I fuck up state essays?


Bottom 15% should get you a pass. Even lower if you can do barely passing for the performance tests.

Seriously?

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Bikeflip
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby Bikeflip » Thu Jan 23, 2014 11:18 am

El Pollito wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
El Pollito wrote:If I get a scaled 165 on CA, how badly can I fuck up state essays?


Bottom 15% should get you a pass. Even lower if you can do barely passing for the performance tests.

Seriously?



Playing around with this calculator (dunno if it's legit. Didn't take CA), if you got a 150 raw on the CA bar, you'd need an average of a 56/100 on the essays and the PTs. Your 1391 score would be somewhere between the 45th and 50th percentile.

Moar (statistical) breakdowns, but the dude appears to focus more on doing well on the essays, as opposed to doing well on the MBE:

Jul 2011 breakdown

Feb 2012 breakdown

rad lulz
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby rad lulz » Thu Jan 23, 2014 2:08 pm

Isn't ca a state where MBE is like 1/3

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Bikeflip
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby Bikeflip » Thu Jan 23, 2014 2:47 pm

rad lulz wrote:Isn't ca a state where MBE is like 1/3



Good point. 35% from the looks of it.

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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby randoname » Mon Feb 17, 2014 2:45 pm

Anybody have any info on Wisconsin? I have a 152 MBE from a passing test in a neighboring jurisdiction. How shitty can I do on the MPT/essays and still pass? Also, any idea how WI grades its essays? Judging from the ABA it looks like WI just makes up its mind how it wants to grade the essays over again every year.
http://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/ ... eckdam.pdf

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Bikeflip
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby Bikeflip » Mon Feb 17, 2014 4:34 pm

randoname wrote:Anybody have any info on Wisconsin? I have a 152 MBE from a passing test in a neighboring jurisdiction. How shitty can I do on the MPT/essays and still pass? Also, any idea how WI grades its essays? Judging from the ABA it looks like WI just makes up its mind how it wants to grade the essays over again every year.
http://www.americanbar.org/content/dam/ ... eckdam.pdf



Probably won't be a ton of WI bar info stuff because of DAT DIPLOMA PRIVILEGE. Still here's the official page.

Page 3 says WI tests "MEE/WI" law and has 1 MPT. Page 4 says you need a total score of 258 to pass. Since you only need to find 106 points, I bet you can damn near sleep through half the test and pass. As to how each essay is graded, no idea but I wouldn't worry too much.

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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby superflush » Mon Feb 24, 2014 4:32 pm

Bikeflip wrote:Page 3 says WI tests "MEE/WI" law and has 1 MPT. Page 4 says you need a total score of 258 to pass. Since you only need to find 106 points, I bet you can damn near sleep through half the test and pass. As to how each essay is graded, no idea but I wouldn't worry too much.


That page says that it simply waives the part of the bar that is the MBE. So, I would read that to mean that there is still a cut score for the essays (a la Illinois when one gets an MBE waiver).

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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby randoname » Mon Feb 24, 2014 6:49 pm

superflush wrote:
Bikeflip wrote:Page 3 says WI tests "MEE/WI" law and has 1 MPT. Page 4 says you need a total score of 258 to pass. Since you only need to find 106 points, I bet you can damn near sleep through half the test and pass. As to how each essay is graded, no idea but I wouldn't worry too much.


That page says that it simply waives the part of the bar that is the MBE. So, I would read that to mean that there is still a cut score for the essays (a la Illinois when one gets an MBE waiver).



Nope, WI did away with that in 2007, (http://wislawjournal.com/2011/01/25/bar ... -the-rise/).

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superflush
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby superflush » Mon Feb 24, 2014 10:52 pm

randoname wrote:Nope, WI did away with that in 2007, (http://wislawjournal.com/2011/01/25/bar ... -the-rise/).


Right. When you sit for the entire exam. Calling it a waiver of the MBE portion doesn't sound like they will take the transferred MBE score into account. If I'm wrong, then it's an extremely easy opportunity. But it just doesn't add up from what that previous link stated.

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Bikeflip
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby Bikeflip » Tue Feb 25, 2014 5:00 am

superflush wrote:
randoname wrote:Nope, WI did away with that in 2007, (http://wislawjournal.com/2011/01/25/bar ... -the-rise/).


Right. When you sit for the entire exam. Calling it a waiver of the MBE portion doesn't sound like they will take the transferred MBE score into account. If I'm wrong, then it's an extremely easy opportunity. But it just doesn't add up from what that previous link stated.


Honestly, I think the waiver wording on the official PDF was just sloppy writing. I think the MBE score is accepted as is. Previous WI bar exams required that students obtain an essay score of 128 in order to pass the WI bar. That requirement does not appear in the official 2014 PDF.

You mentioned Illinois. Here's their official wording about score transfers: https://www.ilbaradmissions.org/appinfo.action?id=1

MBE Score Transfer
The Illinois Board of Admission to the Bar will accept a scaled score of 140 or more that was earned by an applicant on a MBE administered in another jurisdiction within the 13 months immediately preceding the current Illinois bar exam. The applicant must have passed the entire bar exam in the jurisdiction in which the MBE score was earned.
Applicants opting to transfer a MBE score must take and pass the written portion of the Illinois bar exam in order to pass the exam. This means that the point of value of the transferred MBE score cannot be used to offset an inadequate performance on the written portion of the bar exam.
Any Illinois bar examination applicant, including any MBE transfer applicant, who fails the Illinois bar examination, will be required to take the exam in its entirety upon re-examination.


So I get what you're saying about a cut off. But it'd be super shitty for Wisconsin to have such a cut off and not say anything about it explicitly. As written, it's ambiguous at best.

Further, from Wisconsin Law/Barbri: https://media.law.wisc.edu/m/yzyzb/wi.pdf

Grading and Results
A combined scaled score of 258 is required to pass. The scaled score may be achieved through any combination of scores on either portion of the exam (e.g., 120 scaled essay score + 138 scaled MBE score = 258). Results are generally released five (5) weeks after the exam is given


And from the 2014 NCBEX guide: http://www.ncbex.org/assets/media_files ... pGuide.pdf

pages 26-27 wrote:Do you accept MBE scores transferred from other jurisdictions?

Wisconsin A scaled score of 135 or more if taken within 37 months of present exam and part of a successful exam


Plus the chart on page 30 states that the MBE & Essays are combined in Wisconsin, just like the official PDF stated.

This supplemental guideline does not state anything about a passing essay score for Wisconsin, but it does for other states.

For example:

Page 43 wrote:Kentucky The examination includes both the MBE and a written component that consists of equally weighted performance on the MEE and locally developed essay questions. There is a separate minimum passing standard on each component. To pass the examination, an applicant must achieve a score of 132 or greater on the MBE and an average score of 75 or greater on the written component.



So yeah, I think randoname only needs a 108 to pass, but they should contact the bar if they're unsure.

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superflush
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby superflush » Tue Feb 25, 2014 7:08 am

Bikeflip wrote:Honestly, I think the waiver wording on the official PDF was just sloppy writing. I think the MBE score is accepted as is. Previous WI bar exams required that students obtain an essay score of 128 in order to pass the WI bar. That requirement does not appear in the official 2014 PDF.
....

And from the 2014 NCBEX guide: http://www.ncbex.org/assets/media_files ... pGuide.pdf

pages 26-27 wrote:Do you accept MBE scores transferred from other jurisdictions?

Wisconsin A scaled score of 135 or more if taken within 37 months of present exam and part of a successful exam

...
So yeah, I think randoname only needs a 108 to pass, but they should contact the bar if they're unsure.


Right I get that there is no separate minimum (I believe this is the case in something like 45 state), and I've definitely seen that CompGuide.pdf, but it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense if they factored it into the scaled score. If this was the case, then they might as well do what Minnesota does and let people waive the entire bar with a high enough MBE. If what you are saying is correct, then it is a huge opportunity for people to get admitted in Wisconsin with only a very small amount of prep. If anybody knows for sure about this, it looks like there are at least a few people who'd like to know.

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Bikeflip
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby Bikeflip » Tue Feb 25, 2014 1:44 pm

Yeah I can see the "easy way in" side of things, but the UBE has an easier way in, assuming you're going from one UBE state to another, say Arizona to Washington.

Still, if Wisc has a cut off like Illinois, they need to make it much clearer.

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superflush
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby superflush » Tue Feb 25, 2014 8:12 pm

Bikeflip wrote:Yeah I can see the "easy way in" side of things, but the UBE has an easier way in, assuming you're going from one UBE state to another, say Arizona to Washington.


The one thing that is to not be admired of the UBE is that no UBE state (that I am aware of) allows you do bring in an MBE score and only sit for the MEE/MPT day and wind up with a UBE score.

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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby spleenworship » Thu May 08, 2014 10:44 pm

Thank you DF for this thread.

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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby alphagamma » Fri May 16, 2014 1:52 am

spleenworship wrote:Thank you DF for this thread.

Agreed.

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Danger Zone
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby Danger Zone » Fri May 16, 2014 1:55 am

spleenworship wrote:Thank you DF for this thread.

Solid bump, sir.

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Tanicius
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby Tanicius » Tue Jun 03, 2014 3:19 am

Minnesota requires a combined score of 260. 50% MBE, 20% MPT, 30% MEE. Just how easy does the math make my test, DF?




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