Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

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Bronte
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby Bronte » Sat Jun 08, 2013 12:39 pm

run26.2 wrote:I don't agree with the unqualified assertion that as many people as possible should be kept out of the profession. But adopting your premise, the simple answer is that the LSAT is not a good gauge of whether you'll be a good lawyer. That's like saying no one under 6'3" can be a lawyer. It keeps people out, but not for the right reasons.


I don't see how the bar is a substantially better predictor of lawyering skills than the LSAT. Although the bar nominally tests "the law," it has almost nothing to do with lawyering in practice. First of all, a large portion of the exam tests law that is of predominantly academic interest (think con law, adverse possession, etc.). More importantly, the bar involves memorizing vast swaths of oversimplified law. While lay people probably think this is what lawyers do, anyone with any familiarity with the profession knows this has almost nothing to do with what lawyers do.

Like any standardized test, the LSAT and the bar end up being part intelligence test, part diligence test. It's just that the LSAT tests analytic intelligence and the bar tests more memorization intelligence. Analytic skills are more important to lawyering than memory skills, so if anything the LSAT is a better guage of whether you'll be a good lawyer than the bar.

run26.2
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby run26.2 » Sat Jun 08, 2013 12:49 pm

Bronte wrote:
run26.2 wrote:I don't agree with the unqualified assertion that as many people as possible should be kept out of the profession. But adopting your premise, the simple answer is that the LSAT is not a good gauge of whether you'll be a good lawyer. That's like saying no one under 6'3" can be a lawyer. It keeps people out, but not for the right reasons.


I don't see how the bar is a substantially better predictor of lawyering skills than the LSAT. Although the bar nominally tests "the law," it has almost nothing to do with lawyering in practice. First of all, a large portion of the exam tests law that is of predominantly academic interest (think con law, adverse possession, etc.). More importantly, the bar involves memorizing vast swaths of oversimplified law. While lay people probably think this is what lawyers do, anyone with any familiarity with the profession knows this has almost nothing to do with what lawyers do.

Like any standardized test, the LSAT and the bar end up being part intelligence test, part diligence test. It's just that the LSAT tests analytic intelligence and the bar tests more memorization intelligence. Analytic skills are more important to lawyering than memory skills, so if anything the LSAT is a better guage of whether you'll be a good lawyer than the bar.

While some of the bar does end up being about memorization, it is not exactly in the way you say. WRT the essays, at least in CA (but I know in other states as well), you can make the law up and analyze that and still get a passing grade.

Nevertheless, I think memorization IS important in being a lawyer. The lawyers that can recite the law without looking it up tend to be the ones that are consulted frequently. And BTW - you use Con Law (Iqbal/Twombly) more that you might expect, at least in litigation. Evidence is one you use pretty frequently in litigation. Contracts as well. So it is not like the material tested on the bar has no bearing on your future practice.

I am not arguing the bar is perfect, but it tests skills that are more similar to what you would do as a lawyer (apply legal reasoning to facts to make arguments in a written work product within a limited time) than the LSAT.

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forza
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby forza » Sat Jun 08, 2013 12:51 pm

LJL at defending the bar exam's value in any way.

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TaipeiMort
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby TaipeiMort » Sat Jun 08, 2013 1:09 pm

Edit. Kind of rude reply.
Last edited by TaipeiMort on Sat Jun 08, 2013 1:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Bronte
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby Bronte » Sat Jun 08, 2013 1:22 pm

run26.2 wrote:While some of the bar does end up being about memorization, it is not exactly in the way you say. WRT the essays, at least in CA (but I know in other states as well), you can make the law up and analyze that and still get a passing grade.

Nevertheless, I think memorization IS important in being a lawyer. The lawyers that can recite the law without looking it up tend to be the ones that are consulted frequently. And BTW - you use Con Law (Iqbal/Twombly) more that you might expect, at least in litigation. Evidence is one you use pretty frequently in litigation. Contracts as well. So it is not like the material tested on the bar has no bearing on your future practice.

I am not arguing the bar is perfect, but it tests skills that are more similar to what you would do as a lawyer (apply legal reasoning to facts to make arguments in a written work product within a limited time) than the LSAT.


Maybe because I'm sitting here doing real property multiple choice questions my hatred of the bar is clouding my judgment. And it sounds like you might be a practitioner, so maybe your views trump mine. But from what experience with the bar and with practice I do have, I disagree with basically every point you've made.

First, I'm not saying memorization isn't important to the practice of law, just that it is substantially less important than analytic intelligence. The proposition that lawyers who can recite the law from memory get consulted more frequently is obviously unverifiable but sounds wildly implausible. In any event, good lawyers become familiar with an area of law because they spend time working with it at a high level. They are then able to explain the law from memory. This is not the same as rote memorization of fifteen areas of the law at a highly simplistic level.

Second, of course con law and other bar-tested subject areas come up in practice. Note, however, that Twombly/Iqbal are civil procedure cases decided under Rule 8 of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, and in any event are not part of the multistate con law curriculum. The majority of the multistate con law curriculum concerns high level matters of the functioning of the federal government that most lawyers will never encounter in practice--the President's pardon power, the Supreme Court's original jurisdiction, etc.

But the most important point is that even to the extent the multistate subject areas are nominally relevant, you are not actually learning those subject areas. You are rote memorizing massive amounts of highly simplified blackletter rules. This is just not the work of lawyers in my experience.

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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby 09042014 » Sat Jun 08, 2013 2:19 pm

run26.2 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
run26.2 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:And you think the bar is better?

Regardless, why do we have to predict success as a lawyer, we can just let it play out.

I do think the bar is better, if only for the reason that a sizeable percentage of people actually fail the bar. How many people fail a law school class or fail out of school altogether?

The problem with just letting it play out is that people don't have enough money to go from one lawyer to the next. Companies might, but not individuals.


Well a sizable amount of people don't fail multiple times at decent schools. In most states, 95%+ of the takers eventually pass. It's not a high bar to meet. Might as well not have one at all.

And if you wanna keep tards out of the profession, the LSAT is the best way of doing it because they won't waste 3 years and hundreds of thousands of dollars getting a worthless degree.

160 LSAT minimum is a lot more humane.

Again, the LSAT is even further from what you would be doing as an actual lawyer than the bar. It makes no sense to use it to keep people out of the legal profession. Your position would be better served by either advocating for the bar exam to be given after, say, 1 year of law school or by making the bar more difficult.

As to the first proposal, this has the benefits of diminishing sunk costs, while giving individuals and schools the opportunity to prepare students for the test. The second and/or third years could possibly be optional. The ABA could evaluate whether to require these additional years, for instance to allow for specialization or to require clinical training.

Using the LSAT (in its current form) to keep people out of the profession makes little sense, though.


The bar isn't either. They both are just proxies. When are you going to have to do multiple choice or write shitty 400 words blurbs about the law from memory. Law school is probably better than the bar. So like I said, if we passed an ABA law school, that should be good enough.

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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby run26.2 » Sat Jun 08, 2013 2:26 pm

Bronte wrote:
run26.2 wrote:While some of the bar does end up being about memorization, it is not exactly in the way you say. WRT the essays, at least in CA (but I know in other states as well), you can make the law up and analyze that and still get a passing grade.

Nevertheless, I think memorization IS important in being a lawyer. The lawyers that can recite the law without looking it up tend to be the ones that are consulted frequently. And BTW - you use Con Law (Iqbal/Twombly) more that you might expect, at least in litigation. Evidence is one you use pretty frequently in litigation. Contracts as well. So it is not like the material tested on the bar has no bearing on your future practice.

I am not arguing the bar is perfect, but it tests skills that are more similar to what you would do as a lawyer (apply legal reasoning to facts to make arguments in a written work product within a limited time) than the LSAT.


Maybe because I'm sitting here doing real property multiple choice questions my hatred of the bar is clouding my judgment. And it sounds like you might be a practitioner, so maybe your views trump mine. But from what experience with the bar and with practice I do have, I disagree with basically every point you've made.

First, I'm not saying memorization isn't important to the practice of law, just that it is substantially less important than analytic intelligence. The proposition that lawyers who can recite the law from memory get consulted more frequently is obviously unverifiable but sounds wildly implausible. In any event, good lawyers become familiar with an area of law because they spend time working with it at a high level. They are then able to explain the law from memory. This is not the same as rote memorization of fifteen areas of the law at a highly simplistic level.

Second, of course con law and other bar-tested subject areas come up in practice. Note, however, that Twombly/Iqbal are civil procedure cases decided under Rule 8 of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, and in any event are not part of the multistate con law curriculum. The majority of the multistate con law curriculum concerns high level matters of the functioning of the federal government that most lawyers will never encounter in practice--the President's pardon power, the Supreme Court's original jurisdiction, etc.

But the most important point is that even to the extent the multistate subject areas are nominally relevant, you are not actually learning those subject areas. You are rote memorizing massive amounts of highly simplified blackletter rules. This is just not the work of lawyers in my experience.

This discussion symbolizes the problems with making these arguments here. There's not enough space or time to flesh them out. My point all along has simply been that the bar, while not perfect, is an ok way to keep people out of the profession. Make it harder or test specialties if you like to adjust the number of entrants. But it is not wholly unrelated to practice. And in my view, it is more applicable than the LSAT. I'm do not agree that a standardized test that focuses on reasoning and reasoning in the abstract is better than a test which tests those things, deals with some subject matter that is relevant to your eventual practice, and involves a work product that bears similarity to some work product you will likely do.

Wrt the memorization piece, agreed that it would be hard to verify. But I have seen in many occaions where discussions arise on related topics, but ones that were not slated for discussion. The individuals who can discuss the law on those points regularly are the ones that partners and clients return to for advice.

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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby Agoraphobia » Mon Jul 22, 2013 3:06 pm

Tag lol

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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby clashjones87 » Tue Jul 23, 2013 5:53 am

I appreciate the more aggressive tone this thread has taken on, but I'd appreciate even more some further discussion about how a 135 raw MBE guarantees my passing the UBE.

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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby BeenDidThat » Tue Jul 23, 2013 6:23 am

clashjones87 wrote:I appreciate the more aggressive tone this thread has taken on, but I'd appreciate even more some further discussion about how a 135 raw MBE guarantees my passing the UBE.


180

Also, let's throw in a little bit of a discussion of what how my raw score could even be lower than 135 and still autopass me.

Thanks in advance.

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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby 09042014 » Tue Jul 23, 2013 12:37 pm

clashjones87 wrote:I appreciate the more aggressive tone this thread has taken on, but I'd appreciate even more some further discussion about how a 135 raw MBE guarantees my passing the UBE.


135 raw on what? Barbri? That's almost definitely 150 plus on the real thing.

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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby clashjones87 » Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:26 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
clashjones87 wrote:I appreciate the more aggressive tone this thread has taken on, but I'd appreciate even more some further discussion about how a 135 raw MBE guarantees my passing the UBE.


135 raw on what? Barbri? That's almost definitely 150 plus on the real thing.


135 raw on the actual test.

09042014
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby 09042014 » Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:43 pm

clashjones87 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
clashjones87 wrote:I appreciate the more aggressive tone this thread has taken on, but I'd appreciate even more some further discussion about how a 135 raw MBE guarantees my passing the UBE.


135 raw on what? Barbri? That's almost definitely 150 plus on the real thing.


135 raw on the actual test.


If you at least do well enough to pass the MPT, you pretty much can't fail the essays hard enough to fail the whole thing.

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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby electricfeel » Tue Jul 23, 2013 2:54 pm

howell wrote:
stratocophic wrote:Looks right to me, GA's average MBE score for accredited non-John Marshall lawl students is about 150, and passing is a 270 combined MBE section and essay/MPT section.

They won't even grade your essays if you get less than a 115 on the MBE (guessing because the MBE is just scantron and if you're a moron they don't want to waste time reading your written drivel). If you hit just above the average on the MBE, you're basically home free because you can pass with a written score so bad that if it was your MBE score they wouldn't even bother grading it.

Yeah, in GA, you can just focus on the MBE and do fine. 2 of the essay questions are the practical ones that take zero knowledge and are totally ace-able if you graduated from law school. The 4 subject matter essays are mostly made up by MBE subjects (last summer's exam was ALL MBE subjects). 80-90% of the points are purely MBE subjects. That percentage was closer to 95-100% last summer.


Not entirely true. Last year's GA essay had family law and that is not an MBE subject.

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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby Omerta » Fri Jul 26, 2013 7:31 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
clashjones87 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
clashjones87 wrote:I appreciate the more aggressive tone this thread has taken on, but I'd appreciate even more some further discussion about how a 135 raw MBE guarantees my passing the UBE.


135 raw on what? Barbri? That's almost definitely 150 plus on the real thing.


135 raw on the actual test.


If you at least do well enough to pass the MPT, you pretty much can't fail the essays hard enough to fail the whole thing.


Is it even possible to fuck up the MPT? I can't imagine how you could get lower than 80% barring a panic attack.

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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby shadow. » Fri Jul 26, 2013 7:33 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
clashjones87 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
clashjones87 wrote:I appreciate the more aggressive tone this thread has taken on, but I'd appreciate even more some further discussion about how a 135 raw MBE guarantees my passing the UBE.


135 raw on what? Barbri? That's almost definitely 150 plus on the real thing.


135 raw on the actual test.


If you at least do well enough to pass the MPT, you pretty much can't fail the essays hard enough to fail the whole thing.


What about in NY? With a scaled MBE score of 150+, a decent MPT, and a decent NYMC, is it possible to fail the essays hard enough to fail the whole thing?

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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby kaiser » Fri Jul 26, 2013 7:33 pm

^^

That true? Gonna be honest. I've done like 1 MPT all summer, since I figured it requires no actual prep/memorization, and since its often different, I figured it was inefficient preparation anyway. Assuming I do 1 or 2 in the next 2 days, its really that easy you think?

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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby Stinson » Fri Jul 26, 2013 7:50 pm

My interest in this thread grows the more of Barbri's essay answers I read.

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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby Matteliszt » Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:09 pm

kaiser wrote:^^

That true? Gonna be honest. I've done like 1 MPT all summer, since I figured it requires no actual prep/memorization, and since its often different, I figured it was inefficient preparation anyway. Assuming I do 1 or 2 in the next 2 days, its really that easy you think?



According to Seperac, if you have a 150+ MBE, all the rest of your essays/MPT can be failing and you'll still pass.

http://seperac.com/bar/calc-bar-j12.php

Remember that the MBE is curved. a 140 is median, but a 150 is top 1/3.

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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby kaiser » Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:12 pm

Matteliszt wrote:
kaiser wrote:^^

That true? Gonna be honest. I've done like 1 MPT all summer, since I figured it requires no actual prep/memorization, and since its often different, I figured it was inefficient preparation anyway. Assuming I do 1 or 2 in the next 2 days, its really that easy you think?



According to Seperac, if you have a 150+ MBE, all the rest of your essays/MPT can be failing and you'll still pass.

http://seperac.com/bar/calc-bar-j12.php

Remember that the MBE is curved. a 140 is median, but a 150 is top 1/3.


You know how the essay scaling works? I assumed what BarBri was giving us, and the way I've been scoring these essays is with a raw score number, just counting up for issues I noted. So all these essays get scaled up on the real thing?

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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby Matteliszt » Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:18 pm

kaiser wrote:
Matteliszt wrote:
kaiser wrote:^^

That true? Gonna be honest. I've done like 1 MPT all summer, since I figured it requires no actual prep/memorization, and since its often different, I figured it was inefficient preparation anyway. Assuming I do 1 or 2 in the next 2 days, its really that easy you think?



According to Seperac, if you have a 150+ MBE, all the rest of your essays/MPT can be failing and you'll still pass.

http://seperac.com/bar/calc-bar-j12.php

Remember that the MBE is curved. a 140 is median, but a 150 is top 1/3.


You know how the essay scaling works? I assumed what BarBri was giving us, and the way I've been scoring these essays is with a raw score number, just counting up for issues I noted. So all these essays get scaled up on the real thing?



No. From what I've seen on Seperac, essays that receive < 4 either radically miss issues or radically misapply the law. There's not a lot of difference between a 4.0 and a 4.5 that I can tell. 40s 45s 50s 55s all seem pretty much interchangeable to me which is kind of terrifying because 45s are failing an 55s are passing. The only real difference I can tell is that the 40s and 45s come to the wrong conclusions in some of the issues. The sample answers NYBOLE releases always use the pleading standard from the question (I e no issue of material triable fact for summary judgment) so I think you could probably get some points for that as well.

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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby kaiser » Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:21 pm

Matteliszt wrote:
kaiser wrote:
Matteliszt wrote:
kaiser wrote:^^

That true? Gonna be honest. I've done like 1 MPT all summer, since I figured it requires no actual prep/memorization, and since its often different, I figured it was inefficient preparation anyway. Assuming I do 1 or 2 in the next 2 days, its really that easy you think?



According to Seperac, if you have a 150+ MBE, all the rest of your essays/MPT can be failing and you'll still pass.

http://seperac.com/bar/calc-bar-j12.php

Remember that the MBE is curved. a 140 is median, but a 150 is top 1/3.


You know how the essay scaling works? I assumed what BarBri was giving us, and the way I've been scoring these essays is with a raw score number, just counting up for issues I noted. So all these essays get scaled up on the real thing?



No. From what I've seen on Seperac, essays that receive < 4 either radically miss issues or radically misapply the law. There's not a lot of difference between a 4.0 and a 4.5 that I can tell. 40s 45s 50s 55s all seem pretty much interchangeable to me which is kind of terrifying because 45s are failing an 55s are passing. The only real difference I can tell is that the 40s and 45s come to the wrong conclusions in some of the issues. The sample answers NYBOLE releases always use the pleading standard from the question (I e no issue of material triable fact for summary judgment) so I think you could probably get some points for that as well.


Yeah, no doubt you should mention the standard for SJ and motions to dismiss. In fact, looking at the sub-issue frequency chart, it lists motions for summary judgment as the most common "sub-issue" on all NY essays from any subject.

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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby kaiser » Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:22 pm

Oh and where did you find BOLE sample answers that demonstrate a crappy one vs. a good one?

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Matteliszt
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby Matteliszt » Fri Jul 26, 2013 8:23 pm

kaiser wrote:Oh and where did you find BOLE sample answers that demonstrate a crappy one vs. a good one?



Subscription to Seperac


NYBOLE releases the high score essay for each subject essay, I can't tell how the curve works at all. It seems the same as a 66 or 60 to me.

Omerta
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby Omerta » Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:05 pm

kaiser wrote:^^

That true? Gonna be honest. I've done like 1 MPT all summer, since I figured it requires no actual prep/memorization, and since its often different, I figured it was inefficient preparation anyway. Assuming I do 1 or 2 in the next 2 days, its really that easy you think?


I'm not gonna lie, I think I did 3. The thing is that the MPTs seem to NEVER include irrelevant material, so you can look at the questions, turn to the fake case, then apply the facts to the standard in the fake case. I think it's fairly easy to make sure you hit everything by just checking that you used all the sources. The cherry on top is that you don't need to know anything about the substantive law for the question.

It's probably beneficial to skim through a few problems just to check out the general form for the materials.

edit: Since there are a few GA people in this thread, do you agree that the GA essays seem fairly easy? Sometimes they can be a bit nitpicky (I'm looking at you, Georgia civil procedure), but it sounds like nothing compared to states like NY. All these NY people are freaking me out. The Barbri answers for GA essays are generally 3/4-1 page long.




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