Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

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Tanicius
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby Tanicius » Sun Jul 20, 2014 11:28 am

spleenworship wrote:
Tanicius wrote:Random question about the MEE. My Themis practice essays are giving me a word cap of 5,000 characters per essay. Is that in line with everyone else? The model answers are longer than 5,000 characters -- I've counted them up. So I want to make sure I'm not getting prepared to write briefer answers than I'm actually allowed to do on the real thing.

Are you seriously exceeding the 5000 characters in the 20 minutes or so you're supposed to write the essay?


As myriad of my own TLS posts show, writing succinctly is a lot harder for me than writing fast. The reason I hate the character limits is because sometimes it's legitimately not possible to IRAC all the issues you see in the space you're given.

The MEE essays seem to be performed a very different way from the CA and NY essays. In those states, you have enough space that you're apparently supposed to start furiously typing almost as soon as you start reading. But in the MEE states, if these character limits are real, then our essays require a lot more planning and prioritizing, with less time spent typing.

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spleenworship
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby spleenworship » Sun Jul 20, 2014 11:30 am

Tanicius wrote:
spleenworship wrote:
Tanicius wrote:Random question about the MEE. My Themis practice essays are giving me a word cap of 5,000 characters per essay. Is that in line with everyone else? The model answers are longer than 5,000 characters -- I've counted them up. So I want to make sure I'm not getting prepared to write briefer answers than I'm actually allowed to do on the real thing.

Are you seriously exceeding the 5000 characters in the 20 minutes or so you're supposed to write the essay?


As myriad of my own TLS posts show, writing succinctly is a lot harder for me than writing fast. The reason I hate the character limits is because sometimes it's legitimately not possible to IRAC all the issues you see in the space you're given.

The MEE essays seem to be performed a very different way from the CA and NY essays. In those states, you have enough space that you're apparently supposed to start furiously typing almost as soon as you start reading. But in the MEE states, if these character limits are real, then our essays require a lot more planning and prioritizing, with less time spent typing.


Ok. Makes sense.

I have the opposite problem - too sparse.

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JenDarby
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby JenDarby » Sun Jul 20, 2014 11:33 am

Tanicius wrote:
spleenworship wrote:
Tanicius wrote:Random question about the MEE. My Themis practice essays are giving me a word cap of 5,000 characters per essay. Is that in line with everyone else? The model answers are longer than 5,000 characters -- I've counted them up. So I want to make sure I'm not getting prepared to write briefer answers than I'm actually allowed to do on the real thing.

Are you seriously exceeding the 5000 characters in the 20 minutes or so you're supposed to write the essay?


As myriad of my own TLS posts show, writing succinctly is a lot harder for me than writing fast. The reason I hate the character limits is because sometimes it's legitimately not possible to IRAC all the issues you see in the space you're given.

The MEE essays seem to be performed a very different way from the CA and NY essays. In those states, you have enough space that you're apparently supposed to start furiously typing almost as soon as you start reading. But in the MEE states, if these character limits are real, then our essays require a lot more planning and prioritizing, with less time spent typing.

I feel like with NY there is no need to furiously type at any point. I couldn't fathom hitting 5k words or feeling anything less than leisurely lol. All the practice essays I have done are so short and straightforward - you either know the couple rules or you don't.

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Tanicius
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby Tanicius » Sun Jul 20, 2014 11:34 am

I feel like NY there is no need to furiously type at any point. I couldn't fathom hitting 5k words or feeling anything less than leisurely lol. All the practice essays I have done are so short and straightforward - you either know the couple rules or you don't.


Not words, people. CHARACTERS. 5,000 characters our ceiling for each essay. That's usually less than 1,000 words.

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JenDarby
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby JenDarby » Sun Jul 20, 2014 11:36 am

Tanicius wrote:
I feel like NY there is no need to furiously type at any point. I couldn't fathom hitting 5k words or feeling anything less than leisurely lol. All the practice essays I have done are so short and straightforward - you either know the couple rules or you don't.


Not words, people. CHARACTERS. 5,000 characters our ceiling for each essay. That's usually less than 1,000 words.

:lol: oh thank god. I was thinking back to law school finals where hitting 5k words wasn't unreasonable. I might word count a couple of my essays, I don't think they're very long, but 5k characters is possible.

09042014
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby 09042014 » Sun Jul 20, 2014 11:37 am

Tanicius wrote:
I feel like NY there is no need to furiously type at any point. I couldn't fathom hitting 5k words or feeling anything less than leisurely lol. All the practice essays I have done are so short and straightforward - you either know the couple rules or you don't.


Not words, people. CHARACTERS. 5,000 characters our ceiling for each essay. That's usually less than 1,000 words.


Look up the rules for your state. They vary state to state I believe. SInce the MEE is graded by your state.

I hit the word limit on one of my questions and I'm actually a very "to teh point" writer.

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LeDique
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby LeDique » Sun Jul 20, 2014 12:12 pm

CO's word limit on MEE is 5000 *words* and MPT is 12000 words. I have no concern about hitting either.

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Tanicius
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby Tanicius » Sun Jul 20, 2014 12:19 pm

Like, this is a prime example of what I'm talking about. This is the QUESTION, for a half-hour-long, 5000-character capped essay:

Jane sued her former employer Widget Corporation (“Widget”) in the proper court alleging that Sam, Widget’s President, had sexually harassed her for many years. At trial, the following evidence was admitted over objection:

(A) Jane testified that when she recently confronted Sam about his sexual harassment of her, he told her that his personal lawyer told him that “it was not sexual harassment as long as the other person liked it.”

(B) Jane testified that she had overheard two female Widget accountants complaining to each other about Sam harassing Jane and that one of them had said “Someone should sue that jerk, he treats women like dirt.”

(C) Paula, Sam’s wife, testified that Sam sent her a private email in which Sam confessed to sexually harassing Jane. In addition, Paula testified that one day, when she and Sam were driving together with their baby daughter to church, Sam told her that he had sexually harassed Jane.

(D) Jane introduced into evidence Hospital’s record of Jane’s last yearly physical examination in which Bill, Jane’s physician, wrote that Jane suffered from “post traumatic stress disorder as a result of sexual molestation by Sam.”

(E) Sam introduced into evidence the pre-trial deposition testimony of his former secretary, Nancy, in which Nancy testified that Jane had stated the following to her: “I love to flirt with Sam, and I also love it when he flirts back – he is such a sweet guy.” At the time of the trial, Nancy was in jail in another state awaiting trial on tax evasion charges.

(F) On Jane’s cross-examination of Martha, a psychiatrist hired by Widget to testify at the trial, Jane introduced into evidence a written report of a peer review committee of the hospital that employed Martha. The report contained the peer review committee’s conclusion, after investigating the death of one of Martha’s patients, that Martha was “incompetent” and “unprofessional.”

In each instance, were the Trial Judge’s rulings to admit correct?


Like, what? Most of those questions involve two to three sub issues that need to be IRAC'd. The model answer is 10,845 characters. We can barely scratch the surface of that question in 5,000 characters.

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LeDique
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby LeDique » Sun Jul 20, 2014 12:26 pm

Well, you still haven't answered: what's the limit on your actual bar exam?

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Tanicius
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby Tanicius » Sun Jul 20, 2014 12:34 pm

LeDique wrote:Well, you still haven't answered: what's the limit on your actual bar exam?


Can't find anything on Minnesota's website. All it says about the MEE is which topics get tested, how many essays we'll get, and when in the order of testing materials we get them. For more information it directs us to the MEE's page on the NCBE website, which contains zero information about state specifics.

klacoste
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby klacoste » Sun Jul 20, 2014 12:47 pm

LeDique wrote:CO's word limit on MEE is 5000 *words* and MPT is 12000 words. I have no concern about hitting either.


Actually, from the Colorado exam instructions: "MEE answers are limited to 5000 characters. MPT answers are limited to 12000 characters."

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LeDique
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby LeDique » Sun Jul 20, 2014 12:56 pm

klacoste wrote:
LeDique wrote:CO's word limit on MEE is 5000 *words* and MPT is 12000 words. I have no concern about hitting either.


Actually, from the Colorado exam instructions: "MEE answers are limited to 5000 characters. MPT answers are limited to 12000 characters."


Man, this is what I get for relying on a facebook post.

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JenDarby
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby JenDarby » Sun Jul 20, 2014 1:00 pm

LeDique wrote:
klacoste wrote:
LeDique wrote:CO's word limit on MEE is 5000 *words* and MPT is 12000 words. I have no concern about hitting either.


Actually, from the Colorado exam instructions: "MEE answers are limited to 5000 characters. MPT answers are limited to 12000 characters."


Man, this is what I get for relying on a facebook post.

:lol: 12k words would be a pretty aggressive MPT.

dromi
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby dromi » Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:36 pm

FWIW Illinois essays have a character limit of 4600. I think MPT is three times that.

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Michaela
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby Michaela » Sun Jul 20, 2014 7:56 pm

ixwad wrote:I have a question for the numbers-inclined among you.

So, I'm taking Indiana, which is 50% MBE, 20% MPT, and 30% Indiana essays, 264 required to pass. I've noticed that, relative to at least some other states that have a similar breakdown, Indiana's pass rate has frequently been significantly worse, and I was wondering what this might be attributed to. I can't find a lot of detailed information on Indiana's essay scoring system, but I saw something that indicated that it's scaled to the MBE scale (so I think it would be very similar to the info. posted in the OP about Illinois) -- if this is the case, what might explain the consistently worse pass rates in Indiana? Just that Indiana takers suck at the MBE compared to people in other states (Illinois, for example)? Something else?


Bumping for an answer to this. I'm also an Indiana test taker. It seems like the Illinois data from the very first page would apply to Indiana, since Indiana and Illinois are both 50% MBE, 30% Essay, and 20% MPT with a 264 required to pass, right? FWIW, I just checked the Illinois Bar website and it looks like starting in 2015 Illinois will be requiring a 272 to pass.

If anyone knows how Indiana essays and the MPT are scored, let me know. I'm averaging around a 129 raw right now (soooo 149? scaled), doing questions from Emanuel and my local bar prep company. I read somewhere that Indiana scales up 14 and scales MBE and written in the same manner. Sooooo what kind of shape am I in?

FYI Indiana Essays and MPT are graded on a 1-6 scale, so I'm wondering exactly how many 3's, 4's, etc. I need on each essay and then hopefully get a 4 or above on each MPT (there are 2)? This shit is super confusing and opaque and my brain cannot handle right now, any guidance is much appreciated.

09042014
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby 09042014 » Sun Jul 20, 2014 8:07 pm

Michaela wrote:
ixwad wrote:I have a question for the numbers-inclined among you.

So, I'm taking Indiana, which is 50% MBE, 20% MPT, and 30% Indiana essays, 264 required to pass. I've noticed that, relative to at least some other states that have a similar breakdown, Indiana's pass rate has frequently been significantly worse, and I was wondering what this might be attributed to. I can't find a lot of detailed information on Indiana's essay scoring system, but I saw something that indicated that it's scaled to the MBE scale (so I think it would be very similar to the info. posted in the OP about Illinois) -- if this is the case, what might explain the consistently worse pass rates in Indiana? Just that Indiana takers suck at the MBE compared to people in other states (Illinois, for example)? Something else?


Bumping for an answer to this. I'm also an Indiana test taker. It seems like the Illinois data from the very first page would apply to Indiana, since Indiana and Illinois are both 50% MBE, 30% Essay, and 20% MPT with a 264 required to pass, right? FWIW, I just checked the Illinois Bar website and it looks like starting in 2015 Illinois will be requiring a 272 to pass.

If anyone knows how Indiana essays and the MPT are scored, let me know. I'm averaging around a 129 raw right now (soooo 149? scaled), doing questions from Emanuel and my local bar prep company. I read somewhere that Indiana scales up 14 and scales MBE and written in the same manner. Sooooo what kind of shape am I in?

FYI Indiana Essays and MPT are graded on a 1-6 scale, so I'm wondering exactly how many 3's, 4's, etc. I need on each essay and then hopefully get a 4 or above on each MPT (there are 2)? This shit is super confusing and opaque and my brain cannot handle right now, any guidance is much appreciated.


It's cause you all are a bunch of dumb inbred motherfuckers.

Seriously though 150 MBE and you'll pass.

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dudnaito
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby dudnaito » Sun Jul 20, 2014 9:56 pm

Michaela wrote:
ixwad wrote:I have a question for the numbers-inclined among you.

So, I'm taking Indiana, which is 50% MBE, 20% MPT, and 30% Indiana essays, 264 required to pass. I've noticed that, relative to at least some other states that have a similar breakdown, Indiana's pass rate has frequently been significantly worse, and I was wondering what this might be attributed to. I can't find a lot of detailed information on Indiana's essay scoring system, but I saw something that indicated that it's scaled to the MBE scale (so I think it would be very similar to the info. posted in the OP about Illinois) -- if this is the case, what might explain the consistently worse pass rates in Indiana? Just that Indiana takers suck at the MBE compared to people in other states (Illinois, for example)? Something else?


Bumping for an answer to this. I'm also an Indiana test taker. It seems like the Illinois data from the very first page would apply to Indiana, since Indiana and Illinois are both 50% MBE, 30% Essay, and 20% MPT with a 264 required to pass, right? FWIW, I just checked the Illinois Bar website and it looks like starting in 2015 Illinois will be requiring a 272 to pass.

If anyone knows how Indiana essays and the MPT are scored, let me know. I'm averaging around a 129 raw right now (soooo 149? scaled), doing questions from Emanuel and my local bar prep company. I read somewhere that Indiana scales up 14 and scales MBE and written in the same manner. Sooooo what kind of shape am I in?

FYI Indiana Essays and MPT are graded on a 1-6 scale, so I'm wondering exactly how many 3's, 4's, etc. I need on each essay and then hopefully get a 4 or above on each MPT (there are 2)? This shit is super confusing and opaque and my brain cannot handle right now, any guidance is much appreciated.



Illlinois MPT is only worth 7% I believe. As to how the remaining 43% is distributed among the MEE and IEE... i dunno

bdubs
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby bdubs » Sun Jul 20, 2014 10:28 pm

dudnaito wrote:Illlinois MPT is only worth 7% I believe. As to how the remaining 43% is distributed among the MEE and IEE... i dunno


IL MPT is 7.14% of the score, each essay is 4.76%. The scaling kind of messes it up, but if you view each MBE question as a potential point then essays are the equivalent of about 18 MBE questions each.

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mlbennani
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby mlbennani » Mon Jul 21, 2014 9:25 am

Twice that. MPT is only 9,200 characters.
dromi wrote:FWIW Illinois essays have a character limit of 4600. I think MPT is three times that.

gabartaker
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby gabartaker » Thu Jul 24, 2014 3:44 pm

Any further guidance on Georgia? I know there was some discussion earlier, but this is all I know so far.

- 270 to pass (50/50 split)
- MBE worth 200 points
- Essays worth 200 points (2 MPTs, 4 GA Essays)
- MPTs worth roughly 42 points each (according to GA bar, MPTs are worth 1.5x essay questions, so 200/7*1.5 = 42)
- Essays worth roughly 28.5 points each (200/7 = 28.5)
- GA doesn't grade your essays if your MBE score is below 115
- Rumor: GA may use a holistic system where the grader is informed of your MBE score before grading your essays
- Passage rates from schools averaging an MBE of 150 or higher are around 95%: Source

Is there anything I'm missing that could help us make a conclusion about the auto-pass line in GA?

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LeDique
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby LeDique » Thu Jul 24, 2014 4:09 pm

Most of that info is extraneous, 150 you're looking at 10th percentile or so on essays, 155 and you're good

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banjooooo
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby banjooooo » Thu Jul 24, 2014 4:27 pm

On essays, does anyone know the etiquette for using acronyms? For example, after I write out "General District Court" or "State Corporation Commission" once, can I just use GDC or SCC for the rest of that essay? I'm handwriting and would really like to not waste so much time writing things like that out over & over.

gabartaker
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby gabartaker » Thu Jul 24, 2014 4:31 pm

LeDique wrote:Most of that info is extraneous, 150 you're looking at 10th percentile or so on essays, 155 and you're good


Thanks.

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JenDarby
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby JenDarby » Thu Jul 24, 2014 4:33 pm

banjooooo wrote:On essays, does anyone know the etiquette for using acronyms? For example, after I write out "General District Court" or "State Corporation Commission" once, can I just use GDC or SCC for the rest of that essay? I'm handwriting and would really like to not waste so much time writing things like that out over & over.

I can't imagine it's a problem, and I think I've read it's ok in Kaplan materials. Just throw ("GDC") in after the first time and should be fine regardless.

jd20132013
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Re: Strong MBE = AUTO bar pass

Postby jd20132013 » Thu Jul 24, 2014 5:42 pm

gabartaker wrote:Any further guidance on Georgia? I know there was some discussion earlier, but this is all I know so far.

- 270 to pass (50/50 split)
- MBE worth 200 points
- Essays worth 200 points (2 MPTs, 4 GA Essays)
- MPTs worth roughly 42 points each (according to GA bar, MPTs are worth 1.5x essay questions, so 200/7*1.5 = 42)
- Essays worth roughly 28.5 points each (200/7 = 28.5)
- GA doesn't grade your essays if your MBE score is below 115
- Rumor: GA may use a holistic system where the grader is informed of your MBE score before grading your essays
- Passage rates from schools averaging an MBE of 150 or higher are around 95%: Source

Is there anything I'm missing that could help us make a conclusion about the auto-pass line in GA?



christ I should have taken Georgia




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