BarBri Thread: People taking Barbri for July 2013 exam

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JollyGreenGiant
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Re: BarBri Thread: People taking Barbri for July 2013 exam

Postby JollyGreenGiant » Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:07 pm

KeepitKind wrote:Can someone kindly explain the diff between the mechanics of a k modification v. an accord + satisfaction? Tyia


My memory is that an accord + satisfaction will have "if, then" in the prompt whereas a modification will not. (e.g. If you get these tickets to the concert, then I will consider the obligation settled) If there's an accord and it is not performed, you can sue for the original obligation. A modification discharges the original obligation and you can only sue under the modified obligation.

Remember modification requires consideration if it is not covered by the UCC. If it falls under the UCC then it only requires "good faith."

rnf1292
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Re: BarBri Thread: People taking Barbri for July 2013 exam

Postby rnf1292 » Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:10 pm

I am not NY but feel like this would be the same all around: is a partner liable for fraud committed by another partner? I wrote down yes if it is within the scope of the business- but how is fraud considered within the scope of business?

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usuaggie
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Re: BarBri Thread: People taking Barbri for July 2013 exam

Postby usuaggie » Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:16 pm

Matteliszt wrote:
usuaggie wrote:
bgdddymtty wrote:
usuaggie wrote:Is anybody else wondering how people do poorly on the bar? Is there just a section of people who don't study? I don't mean pass or fail, I mean people who get 45% on the mbe
I found this report (LinkRemoved) very interesting on that front. It's limited to one February bar exam at one lower-T3 school, but the results are still stark. Fifty students had GPA's above B- (2.66), and 48 of them (96%) passed. Of the 33 who had GPA's lower than that, only 17 (52%) passed. It seems that some folks just don't have the intellectual firepower for this.



I guess I just don't see myself as being so much smarter than people with worse grades that I'd pass and they wouldn't. I had a 3.15 at 50 percentile but I feel like I'm on pace to pass. I wish Utah had some crappy schools to supply more students. I have easily studied more this summer than all law school combined though. By fives times, probably.



I think a fair amount of people let one minor mess up on an essay or the MBE bring their entire performance downhill.



I think I do a good job forgetting the last question and moving on. But if I get a commercial paper MEE I'm leaving.

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Matteliszt
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Re: BarBri Thread: People taking Barbri for July 2013 exam

Postby Matteliszt » Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:20 pm

usuaggie wrote:
I think I do a good job forgetting the last question and moving on. But if I get a commercial paper MEE I'm leaving.




I think with your MBE you could have an aneurism for most of the local day and be okay to pass bro

BeenDidThat
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Re: BarBri Thread: People taking Barbri for July 2013 exam

Postby BeenDidThat » Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:25 pm

rnf1292 wrote:I am not NY but feel like this would be the same all around: is a partner liable for fraud committed by another partner? I wrote down yes if it is within the scope of the business- but how is fraud considered within the scope of business?


What kind of partnership, what kind of liability, and what kind of fraud?

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bgdddymtty
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Re: BarBri Thread: People taking Barbri for July 2013 exam

Postby bgdddymtty » Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:29 pm

KeepitKind wrote:Can someone kindly explain the diff between the mechanics of a k modification v. an accord + satisfaction? Tyia
Contract modification: there is only one contract. Both sides give consideration to change its terms. If the promisor reneges on the new obligation, the promisee must sue for breach of that contract.

Accord and satisfaction: the promisor has not yet met his obligation on the original contract. The promisee agrees to suspend the promisor's obligation on the original contract in exchange for a promise to perform in some different way, thus creating a second contract. If the promisor fulfills this second obligation, both contracts are considered satisfied. If he does not, the promisee may choose to sue either on the new contract or on the old one.

The most common places you see A&S are disputed debts (I say I don't owe you anything, but I'll pay you half of what you say I owe you and in exchange neither of us will sue the other) and debts the promisor cannot pay (you owe me $10,000 in 30 days, but I'll accept $5,000 if you'll pay by the end of the week). The big thing to watch out for is pre-existing duty. In the latter example, an accord to pay $5,000 in 30 days--i.e., less than the original debt under what are otherwise the same terms--is unenforceable because there is no consideration to the promisee. The promise must be fulfilled in some other way: earlier, in candy bars instead of cash, whatever.

get it to x
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Re: BarBri Thread: People taking Barbri for July 2013 exam

Postby get it to x » Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:31 pm

keg411 wrote:I am so bad at the MBE/multiple choice in general. Can't get close to 70% on any of these sets :(. Looks like that unlike the rest of you, I'm going to have to nail the essays or I'm so failing the bar.


I'm with you keg, I usually just meet the BarBri minimum or get blown out entirely so I'm much more concerned about the MBE than the essays where I've been consistently been at or above passing.

As for all the who are the people who don't pass? I think there is a general underestimation of the number of people who don't do much until the last three weeks because they believe it's a glorified law school exam and then realize they can't pull it off in the end. There are people that completely blew BarBri off, went to the beach, etc.

A lot of people also panic due to not seeing things before combined with the general anxiety of the exam. When my spouse took it last year, the guy next to her never came back after lunch of Day 1! Smart people fail, less than smart people pass. It's an arbitrary and irrational rite of passage . . . just like the LSAT and 1L.

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Re: BarBri Thread: People taking Barbri for July 2013 exam

Postby dudders » Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:50 pm

I can't believe I'm asking this – I inwardly mock the 0Ls talking about what to eat and the LSAT - but does anyone have any advice for test day snacks?

My state allows snacks, provided they won't disturb other test takers. The caveat however is that they can't be wrapped, and they just have to be commingled in my ziploc bag with everything else. I've been racking my brain for anything worth bringing that fits those specifications and so far I've got bupkis.

dudeman2014
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Re: BarBri Thread: People taking Barbri for July 2013 exam

Postby dudeman2014 » Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:54 pm

dudders wrote:I can't believe I'm asking this – I inwardly mock the 0Ls talking about what to eat and the LSAT - but does anyone have any advice for test day snacks?

My state allows snacks, provided they won't disturb other test takers. The caveat however is that they can't be wrapped, and they just have to be commingled in my ziploc bag with everything else. I've been racking my brain for anything worth bringing that fits those specifications and so far I've got bupkis.



Have you thought about granola bars? You can unwrap them ahead of time and put them in them the ziploc bag. They are sweet to give you a little bit of a sugar rush and they are somewhat filling too. Also they are quiet, especially if they are the chewy kind.

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KeepitKind
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Re: BarBri Thread: People taking Barbri for July 2013 exam

Postby KeepitKind » Thu Jul 25, 2013 11:57 pm

thank u JGG and BDM. I was staring at the def's in the outline but couldn't distinguish betw these changes to a k and knew some TLSers would be able to help me out.

dudders
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Re: BarBri Thread: People taking Barbri for July 2013 exam

Postby dudders » Fri Jul 26, 2013 12:05 am

dudeman2014 wrote:
dudders wrote:I can't believe I'm asking this – I inwardly mock the 0Ls talking about what to eat and the LSAT - but does anyone have any advice for test day snacks?

My state allows snacks, provided they won't disturb other test takers. The caveat however is that they can't be wrapped, and they just have to be commingled in my ziploc bag with everything else. I've been racking my brain for anything worth bringing that fits those specifications and so far I've got bupkis.



Have you thought about granola bars? You can unwrap them ahead of time and put them in them the ziploc bag. They are sweet to give you a little bit of a sugar rush and they are somewhat filling too. Also they are quiet, especially if they are the chewy kind.


I thought about that, but I thought the chewy ones would be sticky and the non-chewy ones would be crumbly. All these archaic rules are super annoying. The only ones I tend to eat are Larabars and they are wayyy too messy. (ClifBars are kind of like hockey pucks though, so maybe they would work.)

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usuaggie
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Re: BarBri Thread: People taking Barbri for July 2013 exam

Postby usuaggie » Fri Jul 26, 2013 12:35 am

Matteliszt wrote:
usuaggie wrote:
I think I do a good job forgetting the last question and moving on. But if I get a commercial paper MEE I'm leaving.




I think with your MBE you could have an aneurism for most of the local day and be okay to pass bro


I'm in a UBE state so thankfully MBE is 50%. But I'm not do sure I'm going to do as well as I have been doing. Too good to believe.

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JollyGreenGiant
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Re: BarBri Thread: People taking Barbri for July 2013 exam

Postby JollyGreenGiant » Fri Jul 26, 2013 1:07 am

Ugh. I could use commercial paper help if possible:

If someone presents a forged signature/alteration to the Drawee, the drawee can recover from that party as they have breached their "presentment warranty." That party can then recover from who they got it from due to that party breaching their "transfer warranty" and that party can recover from the party before it, etc. until it reaches the forging party. Can anybody recover for another party's breach of presentment warranty other than Drawee? Also, my notes indicate that if Drawer's signature is forged, then Drawee Bank can't recover from anybody except forger. So can Drawer only recover on presentment warranty in cases of material alterations to the check?

Thanks.

blong4133
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Re: BarBri Thread: People taking Barbri for July 2013 exam

Postby blong4133 » Fri Jul 26, 2013 1:34 am

JollyGreenGiant wrote:Ugh. I could use commercial paper help if possible:

If someone presents a forged signature/alteration to the Drawee, the drawee can recover from that party as they have breached their "presentment warranty." That party can then recover from who they got it from due to that party breaching their "transfer warranty" and that party can recover from the party before it, etc. until it reaches the forging party. Can anybody recover for another party's breach of presentment warranty other than Drawee? Also, my notes indicate that if Drawer's signature is forged, then Drawee Bank can't recover from anybody except forger. So can Drawer only recover on presentment warranty in cases of material alterations to the check?

Thanks.


In regards to presentment warranty - Presentment warranty is only triggered when the check is presented to the bank from which the check is drawn (drawee bank). So let's say that A draws a check from his account at Bank 1. He transfers the check to B. C steals the check from B, and forges B's signature. C then transfers the note to D. D takes the check to his bank at Bank 2 to have it cashed. There is no presentment warranty between D and Bank 2, because the check is drawn from Bank 1. Bank 2 is the "depository bank," and presentment warranty is only triggered when presented to the drawee bank. So Bank 2 takes the check, and presents it to Bank 1 for payment. Here is where presentment warranty is implicated, because Bank 2 is "presenting" the check for payment at the drawee bank. So if there is a breach of the presentment warranty, it is going to happen between Bank 1 and Bank 2.

Bank 1 cannot go after any of the other indorsers because they did not present the check to it. But assuming that there was a breach of the presentment warranty and Bank 1 recovers from Bank 2. Bank 2 can then go after D for breach of his transfer warranty (because there was an unauthorized/unauthentic indorsement) D can then go after C for breach of the transfer warranty.

In regards to your question about the forged maker's signature - A forged maker's signature is not treated the same as a forged indorsement. It is considered a valid maker's signature from the forger's account. So in other words, if there is a forged maker's signature, the check is properly payable, but payable on the forger's account and not the person from whom the check was stolen. The rationale here is that when a maker signs the note, he is promising that he will pay it according to its terms when he signs. If his signature is forged, he's not making any promise; the forger is. So the forger's signature is treated as a valid signature ordering the check to be paid from his account. And because this is viewed as a valid signature, there is no presentment warranty issue (unless there's a forged indorsement/alteration etc. somewhere else down the line). But the reason your notes says that the drawee bank can only recover from the forger is probably because the forger usually won't have an account in that bank and isn't a customer. But when he forges the maker's name, he will be deemed to be a customer of that bank for the purposes of that check. So if he doesn't actually have an account at the bank from which the check is drawn, it can go after the forger to recover the money that it paid. (because it can't just deduct the money from the forgers account if he doesn't have one at that bank)

And your last question - Presentment warranty arises any time a check that is not payable for whatever reason (either forged indorsement, alteration, person isn't entitled to enforce it, etc.) is presented to it. Presentment warranty is only between the drawee bank and the the person or bank presenting the check to it for payment.

I hope this helps. It's complicated to explain. haha I hope it makes sense.
Last edited by blong4133 on Fri Jul 26, 2013 1:53 am, edited 2 times in total.

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JollyGreenGiant
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Re: BarBri Thread: People taking Barbri for July 2013 exam

Postby JollyGreenGiant » Fri Jul 26, 2013 1:45 am

Damn, you're the best. I really appreciate it.

kaiser
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Re: BarBri Thread: People taking Barbri for July 2013 exam

Postby kaiser » Fri Jul 26, 2013 1:46 am

Haven't even watched the commercial paper/secured transactions video. At this point, I kind of want to just take my chances since its so rare. Yet commercial paper does seem to come up from time to time. Frequency chart says main issues are elements of a negotiable instrument, and liability of drawee bank. That something I can just learn from using the CMR?

blong4133
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Re: BarBri Thread: People taking Barbri for July 2013 exam

Postby blong4133 » Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:08 am

kaiser wrote:Haven't even watched the commercial paper/secured transactions video. At this point, I kind of want to just take my chances since its so rare. Yet commercial paper does seem to come up from time to time. Frequency chart says main issues are elements of a negotiable instrument, and liability of drawee bank. That something I can just learn from using the CMR?


Yeah, that stuff isn't too complicated. It's when you get into the presentment warranties/transfer warranties/HDC issues where your head starts to spin.

Secured isn't too bad either as long as they don't ask questions about stuff that has to be perfected in certain ways. As long as you know when attachment/perfection occurs, and know about priority, I figure you can BS your way through it.

Figures that the two essay subjects that I know the best are the least likely to be on the stinking exam. I think in my state though, there's usually either a secured or comm. paper question...so maybe I may luck out at the dismay of others. haha.

kaiser
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Re: BarBri Thread: People taking Barbri for July 2013 exam

Postby kaiser » Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:11 am

blong4133 wrote:
kaiser wrote:Haven't even watched the commercial paper/secured transactions video. At this point, I kind of want to just take my chances since its so rare. Yet commercial paper does seem to come up from time to time. Frequency chart says main issues are elements of a negotiable instrument, and liability of drawee bank. That something I can just learn from using the CMR?


Yeah, that stuff isn't too complicated. It's when you get into the presentment warranties/transfer warranties/HDC issues where your head starts to spin.

Secured isn't too bad either as long as they don't ask questions about stuff that has to be perfected in certain ways. As long as you know when attachment/perfection occurs, and know about priority, I figure you can BS your way through it.

Figures that the two essay subjects that I know the best are the least likely to be on the stinking exam. I think in my state though, there's usually either a secured or comm. paper question...so maybe I may luck out at the dismay of others. haha.


You think its learnable just by reading the CMR on those main areas?

blong4133
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Re: BarBri Thread: People taking Barbri for July 2013 exam

Postby blong4133 » Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:34 am

kaiser wrote:
blong4133 wrote:
kaiser wrote:Haven't even watched the commercial paper/secured transactions video. At this point, I kind of want to just take my chances since its so rare. Yet commercial paper does seem to come up from time to time. Frequency chart says main issues are elements of a negotiable instrument, and liability of drawee bank. That something I can just learn from using the CMR?


Yeah, that stuff isn't too complicated. It's when you get into the presentment warranties/transfer warranties/HDC issues where your head starts to spin.

Secured isn't too bad either as long as they don't ask questions about stuff that has to be perfected in certain ways. As long as you know when attachment/perfection occurs, and know about priority, I figure you can BS your way through it.

Figures that the two essay subjects that I know the best are the least likely to be on the stinking exam. I think in my state though, there's usually either a secured or comm. paper question...so maybe I may luck out at the dismay of others. haha.


You think its learnable just by reading the CMR on those main areas?


I would say it is. I haven't looked at the CMR for either of them.

If it's not working for you, I have an outline for secured that I made for class last year. It's about 14 pages total. So if you're interested, just shoot me a PM and I can send it to you. Attachment is simple, but perfection can get complicated if they want to ask questions about certain types of collateral. But from all the practice essays I've done, most of them usually pertain to equipment/inventory, which is usually pretty straight forward. (at least you can spot the issues...I come out to the wrong conclusion a good bit though.)

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knickfan
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Re: BarBri Thread: People taking Barbri for July 2013 exam

Postby knickfan » Fri Jul 26, 2013 2:34 am

Can someone explain hearsay to me in plain english? I feel somewhat comfortable with the hearsay exceptions but I can't tell hearsay from non hearsay. I flag everything as hearsay.

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traehekat
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Re: BarBri Thread: People taking Barbri for July 2013 exam

Postby traehekat » Fri Jul 26, 2013 3:23 am

knickfan wrote:Can someone explain hearsay to me in plain english? I feel somewhat comfortable with the hearsay exceptions but I can't tell hearsay from non hearsay. I flag everything as hearsay.


Easiest way for me to keep it straight is to just look at the content of the statement and ask whether it matters if it is true or not in the context of the rest of the problem. If it looks like it is being offered for its truth, its hearsay. If it looks like it's being offered for some other reason, it's not hearsay.

"Dan killed your wife." to show that Dan actually killed your wife? Hearsay, because it's value depends on whether it is true or not.
"Dan killed your wife." to show adequate provocation for second murder? Not hearsay, because it's value doesn't depend on whether it is true or not, it's value is the effect on the listener and whether it would reasonably provoke him.

clashjones87
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Re: BarBri Thread: People taking Barbri for July 2013 exam

Postby clashjones87 » Fri Jul 26, 2013 5:26 am

To those discussing Commercial Paper--

My Barbri lecturer's handout lists HDC as the most frequently tested issue, followed by forgeries and negotiability.

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Glock
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Re: BarBri Thread: People taking Barbri for July 2013 exam

Postby Glock » Fri Jul 26, 2013 5:38 am

Okay--- NCBE practice MBE takers. I'm going to buy one. Which one should I buy?

BCLS
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Re: BarBri Thread: People taking Barbri for July 2013 exam

Postby BCLS » Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:03 am

clashjones87 wrote:To those discussing Commercial Paper--

My Barbri lecturer's handout lists HDC as the most frequently tested issue, followed by forgeries and negotiability.

The thing is that forgeries and negotiability are almost always inextricably intertwined with HDC. Makes it tough unless you know all the rules.

BeenDidThat
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Re: BarBri Thread: People taking Barbri for July 2013 exam

Postby BeenDidThat » Fri Jul 26, 2013 9:57 am

traehekat wrote:
knickfan wrote:Can someone explain hearsay to me in plain english? I feel somewhat comfortable with the hearsay exceptions but I can't tell hearsay from non hearsay. I flag everything as hearsay.


Easiest way for me to keep it straight is to just look at the content of the statement and ask whether it matters if it is true or not in the context of the rest of the problem. If it looks like it is being offered for its truth, its hearsay. If it looks like it's being offered for some other reason, it's not hearsay.

"Dan killed your wife." to show that Dan actually killed your wife? Hearsay, because it's value depends on whether it is true or not.
"Dan killed your wife." to show adequate provocation for second murder? Not hearsay, because it's value doesn't depend on whether it is true or not, it's value is the effect on the listener and whether it would reasonably provoke him.


And to tack on (though the above is very good), I had this problem before, so the way I attack it is to ask: is the person offering it trying to get the jury/judge to believe what the out-of-court declarant said, or is the person offering it trying to get the jury/judge to believe that the out-of-court declarant said it? If the 2nd, non-hearsay.




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