BarBri Thread: People taking Barbri for July 2013 exam

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wildhaggis
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Re: BarBri Thread: People taking Barbri for July 2013 exam

Postby wildhaggis » Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:01 am

Thinking about buying one of those NCBE tests, but unsure of which one to get.

$50 seems steep - anyone have a preference or does it not matter?

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Matteliszt
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Re: BarBri Thread: People taking Barbri for July 2013 exam

Postby Matteliszt » Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:04 am

wildhaggis wrote:Thinking about buying one of those NCBE tests, but unsure of which one to get.

$50 seems steep - anyone have a preference or does it not matter?



They're all the same. If you don't want to spend the money check the Strategic and Tactics book out from your law library and do those. They're the same questions.

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Mroberts3
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Re: BarBri Thread: People taking Barbri for July 2013 exam

Postby Mroberts3 » Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:59 am

kaiser wrote:^^^

I almost don't even wanna do the simulated full day, or any of the other big MPQ2 tests, since its only gonna frustrate me. Plus, I feel like the NCBE tests helped confirm that my effort is better spent on essays, insetad of spending 3 hour chunks with MBE anymore.

Oh, and could you imagine getting a 181 on the real thing? You could literally write "fuck you" on the essays, and pass.


I really want to do this.

I wish you could know your MBE score before taking the essays...I would end my essays with "I AM THE LAW" if I could get a 180+ MBE.

kaiser
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Re: BarBri Thread: People taking Barbri for July 2013 exam

Postby kaiser » Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:02 pm

So, assuming a mid 150's MBE score, how do you need to do on the NY essays to pass? They scale the essays, and I'm not sure how the scoring works there either. And they keep telling us that, if you get approx. 135 scaled on MBE, you need a 5 scaled essay average to pass. So how do you think that essay average decreases as MBE score goes up? I wonder how much leeway you get, since I"m gonna need it for certain subjects.

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jawsthegreat
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Re: BarBri Thread: People taking Barbri for July 2013 exam

Postby jawsthegreat » Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:16 pm

kaiser wrote:So, assuming a mid 150's MBE score, how do you need to do on the NY essays to pass? They scale the essays, and I'm not sure how the scoring works there either. And they keep telling us that, if you get approx. 135 scaled on MBE, you need a 5 scaled essay average to pass. So how do you think that essay average decreases as MBE score goes up? I wonder how much leeway you get, since I"m gonna need it for certain subjects.


Are these scaled 5s out of 10? I've been wondering pretty much the same thing.

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mavsman88
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Re: BarBri Thread: People taking Barbri for July 2013 exam

Postby mavsman88 » Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:17 pm

I'm sure this has been posted a 100 times, but how many questions do I need to get right on the MBE for GA (50% essays 50% MBE) to not have to worry about my score on the essays to pass?

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Matteliszt
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Re: BarBri Thread: People taking Barbri for July 2013 exam

Postby Matteliszt » Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:27 pm

kaiser wrote:So, assuming a mid 150's MBE score, how do you need to do on the NY essays to pass? They scale the essays, and I'm not sure how the scoring works there either. And they keep telling us that, if you get approx. 135 scaled on MBE, you need a 5 scaled essay average to pass. So how do you think that essay average decreases as MBE score goes up? I wonder how much leeway you get, since I"m gonna need it for certain subjects.



http://www.seperac.com/calc-bar-f13.php

Can get a written average of 45, with a 39 MPT and 23/50 on the NYMC and still score a 665 with a straight 150. In other words, you can fail every essay (protip: you won't). Realistically you'll probably score something like 6/5/5/4/4 on a bad essay draw if you're reasonably prepared(Assuming you miss a few issues on the 4s). You already know it's going to be Crim Law/Pro/NYPractice/Family/Corps/Contracts/Torts/Wills/Potentially another subject. I did the exam from Feb 2013, You probably could have passed 3 of the 5 essays on straight MBE knowledge alone(Torts/Contracts/Evidence), and you still have the MPT. So even if you just made something up for the other 2 essays which you knew NOTHING(and I mean NOTHING), about you could probably pull a 2-3 and pass, because you'd be looking at something like 55/55/55/25/25, and a 150, which means you have to really delivery on the MPT.

get it to x
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Re: BarBri Thread: People taking Barbri for July 2013 exam

Postby get it to x » Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:38 pm

Yeah I hit just below 70% on the MPQ2 Set 1. So frustrated at this since it seems like these are significantly easier. Would love to just have one or two solid confidence boosters on the MBE before this ends. I'm better on the essays but I'm still worried about the MBE since my scores are all over the map.

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bgdddymtty
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Re: BarBri Thread: People taking Barbri for July 2013 exam

Postby bgdddymtty » Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:39 pm

mavsman88 wrote:I'm sure this has been posted a 100 times, but how many questions do I need to get right on the MBE for GA (50% essays 50% MBE) to not have to worry about my score on the essays to pass?
It's hard to say since GA doesn't seem to publicize how it scales the essay scores. Assuming they use the equipercentile method that TX uses--e.g., whatever the scaled score of the 1073rd-best MBE, that's also the scaled score of the 1073rd-best essay section--a 150 (roughly 70-73% correct) is enough to pretty well put you in the clear. You need 270 total points to pass, and a 120 essay is likely to be below the 10th percentile.

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Re: BarBri Thread: People taking Barbri for July 2013 exam

Postby kaiser » Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:49 pm

Matteliszt wrote:
kaiser wrote:So, assuming a mid 150's MBE score, how do you need to do on the NY essays to pass? They scale the essays, and I'm not sure how the scoring works there either. And they keep telling us that, if you get approx. 135 scaled on MBE, you need a 5 scaled essay average to pass. So how do you think that essay average decreases as MBE score goes up? I wonder how much leeway you get, since I"m gonna need it for certain subjects.



http://www.seperac.com/calc-bar-f13.php

Can get a written average of 45, with a 39 MPT and 23/50 on the NYMC and still score a 665 with a straight 150. In other words, you can fail every essay (protip: you won't). Realistically you'll probably score something like 6/5/5/4/4 on a bad essay draw if you're reasonably prepared(Assuming you miss a few issues on the 4s). You already know it's going to be Crim Law/Pro/NYPractice/Family/Corps/Contracts/Torts/Wills/Potentially another subject. I did the exam from Feb 2013, You probably could have passed 3 of the 5 essays on straight MBE knowledge alone(Torts/Contracts/Evidence), and you still have the MPT. So even if you just made something up for the other 2 essays which you knew NOTHING(and I mean NOTHING), about you could probably pull a 2-3 and pass, because you'd be looking at something like 55/55/55/25/25, and a 150, which means you have to really delivery on the MPT.



I've literally done like 2 MPT's all summer. So many are diff that I feel like you can't prep for it all that much. Though I guess one can improve on their planning/organization on it. Gotta pump a few out these next few days just so I'm ready. I've really slacked in that area.

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Re: BarBri Thread: People taking Barbri for July 2013 exam

Postby hds2388 » Thu Jul 25, 2013 12:56 pm

Just did the NCBE released MBE question (practice test 3).

Got a 74/100, which I'm happy about. I had been getting this exact percentage (or perhaps 5% better on all of the MPQ2 test sections).

I felt like the questions were relatively the same difficulty of the MPQ2 sets, although I agree with prior posters that they were clearer/better written. They test the same level of specifics and what not. I also felt like the questions were a little shorter; I finished with maybe 15 minutes to spare (and really wasn't pushing myself at the end). On the simulated MBE, I finished with probably only 5 minutes to spare on each half.

Also, for reference, I got a 148 on the Simulated MBE, which means I have zero improvement. Though, I did prepare relatively well for the simulated test).

I took the test to make sure I was good to go on the MBE, and could more specifically focus on the essays, which I am not as strong at (typically score in the 4-7 range on them, but I distrust my barbri graders). All things considered, I am glad I put up the cash because now I feel a little more confident that I can really stress learning better essay technique/do one extra MPT/focus on wills/corps, which are weak areas.

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sundevil77
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Re: BarBri Thread: People taking Barbri for July 2013 exam

Postby sundevil77 » Thu Jul 25, 2013 1:12 pm

So Barbri has tested the same fact pattern in MPQ2 Set 6 Question 1 and MPQ2 Set 9 Question 17. I remember more than a few people being upset with the Set 6 question. The basic fact pattern is that a merchant puts in an order to another merchant. The seller merchant responds in a letter stating that the price has increased, and it gives a delivery date. The buyer merchant does not respond to this letter. Both times the correct answer has been that a contract was formed when the seller merchant sent the letter; both times I got the question wrong. Here's my beef: I know that as between two merchants failure to object to a new term within 10 days constitutes acceptance of the term, but I thought that only worked for non-material terms? Price is certainly material. I went back and looked at my notes, and Epstein definitely said the new term could not be material. Barbri has disagreed with that twice now. I'm now thoroughly confused as to what I should do if that fact pattern comes up on the exam.

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Re: BarBri Thread: People taking Barbri for July 2013 exam

Postby kaiser » Thu Jul 25, 2013 1:16 pm

hds2388 wrote:Just did the NCBE released MBE question (practice test 3).

Got a 74/100, which I'm happy about. I had been getting this exact percentage (or perhaps 5% better on all of the MPQ2 test sections).

I felt like the questions were relatively the same difficulty of the MPQ2 sets, although I agree with prior posters that they were clearer/better written. They test the same level of specifics and what not. I also felt like the questions were a little shorter; I finished with maybe 15 minutes to spare (and really wasn't pushing myself at the end). On the simulated MBE, I finished with probably only 5 minutes to spare on each half.

Also, for reference, I got a 148 on the Simulated MBE, which means I have zero improvement. Though, I did prepare relatively well for the simulated test).

I took the test to make sure I was good to go on the MBE, and could more specifically focus on the essays, which I am not as strong at (typically score in the 4-7 range on them, but I distrust my barbri graders). All things considered, I am glad I put up the cash because now I feel a little more confident that I can really stress learning better essay technique/do one extra MPT/focus on wills/corps, which are weak areas.


4-7 is a HUGE spread, and with an MBE score as high as you are going to get, you could probably get a 4 on each one and be fine, and keep in mind that they are scaled.

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stratocophic
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Re: BarBri Thread: People taking Barbri for July 2013 exam

Postby stratocophic » Thu Jul 25, 2013 1:17 pm

bgdddymtty wrote:
mavsman88 wrote:I'm sure this has been posted a 100 times, but how many questions do I need to get right on the MBE for GA (50% essays 50% MBE) to not have to worry about my score on the essays to pass?
It's hard to say since GA doesn't seem to publicize how it scales the essay scores. Assuming they use the equipercentile method that TX uses--e.g., whatever the scaled score of the 1073rd-best MBE, that's also the scaled score of the 1073rd-best essay section--a 150 (roughly 70-73% correct) is enough to pretty well put you in the clear. You need 270 total points to pass, and a 120 essay is likely to be below the 10th percentile.
yeah, pissing me off that they don't specify anything about essay grading other than the percentages assigned to each question

Look at it this way tho - if you manage a 156 on the MBE, you can pass with an essay score so low that if it was your MBE score they wouldn't bother grading the other half of the test. Have to think anything within 10 points of that is setting you up pretty well, especially when you can get up to 88 points from the MPTs w/o knowing any state law at all (so 150 + say 70 = 220, leaving only 50 out of 112 points needed from the actual subject matter essays - that's two killer essays and two blank pieces of paper or four essays that are only half competent)

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Re: BarBri Thread: People taking Barbri for July 2013 exam

Postby kaiser » Thu Jul 25, 2013 1:18 pm

sundevil77 wrote:So Barbri has tested the same fact pattern in MPQ2 Set 6 Question 1 and MPQ2 Set 9 Question 17. I remember more than a few people being upset with the Set 6 question. The basic fact pattern is that a merchant puts in an order to another merchant. The seller merchant responds in a letter stating that the price has increased, and it gives a delivery date. The buyer merchant does not respond to this letter. Both times the correct answer has been that a contract was formed when the seller merchant sent the letter; both times I got the question wrong. Here's my beef: I know that as between two merchants failure to object to a new term within 10 days constitutes acceptance of the term, but I thought that only worked for non-material terms? Price is certainly material. I went back and looked at my notes, and Epstein definitely said the new term could not be material. Barbri has disagreed with that twice now. I'm now thoroughly confused as to what I should do if that fact pattern comes up on the exam.


You mixed this up with the SOF confirmatory memo exception (where the memo can be used against the non-signing party so long as all the terms are there, and no objection within 10 days). For the UCC new term thing, its if the other merchant doesn't respond within a reasonable period of time.

Once you clarify that, it becomes clear why acceptance sort of has to be at the time the acceptance was sent out. How long is a "reasonable time"? At what magical moment would that lack of objection retroactively turn the thing into acceptance? Sure, if you thought it was 10 days, then you have a concrete thing you would be looking for in the answers, which wouldn't be there (a date 10 days after the memo was sent). But since its reasonable time, theres no practical way to wait for a magic moment. If he in fact didn't object, then the acceptance is good when it was sent.

And even if it did alter materially the terms (or even if the other party objected to the term), the new term simply drops out. The acceptance for the rest is still valid when sent. The whole "alteration of terms" sort of implies that, to a certain extent, it accepts the deal, but is changing something up on the margin. Thus, there is always going to be acceptance for the bulk of the deal (unless the other merchant goes totally the other way, and essentially counteroffers).
Last edited by kaiser on Thu Jul 25, 2013 1:24 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Re: BarBri Thread: People taking Barbri for July 2013 exam

Postby JollyGreenGiant » Thu Jul 25, 2013 1:20 pm

sundevil77 wrote:So Barbri has tested the same fact pattern in MPQ2 Set 6 Question 1 and MPQ2 Set 9 Question 17. I remember more than a few people being upset with the Set 6 question. The basic fact pattern is that a merchant puts in an order to another merchant. The seller merchant responds in a letter stating that the price has increased, and it gives a delivery date. The buyer merchant does not respond to this letter. Both times the correct answer has been that a contract was formed when the seller merchant sent the letter; both times I got the question wrong. Here's my beef: I know that as between two merchants failure to object to a new term within 10 days constitutes acceptance of the term, but I thought that only worked for non-material terms? Price is certainly material. I went back and looked at my notes, and Epstein definitely said the new term could not be material. Barbri has disagreed with that twice now. I'm now thoroughly confused as to what I should do if that fact pattern comes up on the exam.

I complained about this question a couple pages ago. The call of the question says "assuming the contract is formed, when is it formed" and I guess that's the only day that even has a plausible explanation.

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Re: BarBri Thread: People taking Barbri for July 2013 exam

Postby Stinson » Thu Jul 25, 2013 1:25 pm

Spending most of my time on essays at this point, still frustrated with the model answers of course. "In Massachusetts, all attempted disclaimers are absolutely invalid. BUT HERE'S TWO PARAGRAPHS ABOUT WARRANTIES AS THOUGH THAT WERE NOT THE RULE. AND HERE, LET ME GO AHEAD AND APPLY THESE IMAGINARY NON-RULES TO THE FACTS AS PART OF MY COMPLETELY REALISTIC TWO AND A HALF PAGE LONG ANSWER!"

And it's not that I'm not used to crap like that at this point. I don't really care that they are comically longer than you could realistically write and sometimes copy shit out of treatises and/or cases. It's more that the essay answers provide mixed messages about how you approach this stuff. Sometimes they argue both sides, sometimes not. Sometimes they say something doesn't apply and go ahead and hypothetically apply it, sometimes not. Sometimes they chase down the super-peripheral issues, sometimes not. (Though they miss few opportunities to make the answers longer.)

I realize most of those things are judgment calls and on the real thing there will be a variety of answer types and approaches that all get good scores. That's how I sleep at night. But, although I know I've said this before, I continue to be shocked by how little guidance there is on this stuff. This is half the freaking test. The MBE stuff is hardly perfect but at least very well fleshed out - tons of question sets of varying difficulties, mostly good quality explanations, concrete goals based on past averages. With the essays the lack of care is apparent in most every aspect of the program, from the (much commented upon elsewhere) silly scare grading, to the lazy, clearly-afterthought approach to state subjects in the lectures, to the complete opacity about what actually gets good scores on the essays. And so on.

Ugh.

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sundevil77
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Re: BarBri Thread: People taking Barbri for July 2013 exam

Postby sundevil77 » Thu Jul 25, 2013 1:30 pm

JollyGreenGiant wrote:
sundevil77 wrote:So Barbri has tested the same fact pattern in MPQ2 Set 6 Question 1 and MPQ2 Set 9 Question 17. I remember more than a few people being upset with the Set 6 question. The basic fact pattern is that a merchant puts in an order to another merchant. The seller merchant responds in a letter stating that the price has increased, and it gives a delivery date. The buyer merchant does not respond to this letter. Both times the correct answer has been that a contract was formed when the seller merchant sent the letter; both times I got the question wrong. Here's my beef: I know that as between two merchants failure to object to a new term within 10 days constitutes acceptance of the term, but I thought that only worked for non-material terms? Price is certainly material. I went back and looked at my notes, and Epstein definitely said the new term could not be material. Barbri has disagreed with that twice now. I'm now thoroughly confused as to what I should do if that fact pattern comes up on the exam.

I complained about this question a couple pages ago. The call of the question says "assuming the contract is formed, when is it formed" and I guess that's the only day that even has a plausible explanation.


So that's what I thought on the Set 6 question. I needed to "assume" the contract was formed. But the question in Set 9 doesn't even say that, but still the same result.

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sundevil77
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Re: BarBri Thread: People taking Barbri for July 2013 exam

Postby sundevil77 » Thu Jul 25, 2013 1:32 pm

kaiser wrote:
sundevil77 wrote:So Barbri has tested the same fact pattern in MPQ2 Set 6 Question 1 and MPQ2 Set 9 Question 17. I remember more than a few people being upset with the Set 6 question. The basic fact pattern is that a merchant puts in an order to another merchant. The seller merchant responds in a letter stating that the price has increased, and it gives a delivery date. The buyer merchant does not respond to this letter. Both times the correct answer has been that a contract was formed when the seller merchant sent the letter; both times I got the question wrong. Here's my beef: I know that as between two merchants failure to object to a new term within 10 days constitutes acceptance of the term, but I thought that only worked for non-material terms? Price is certainly material. I went back and looked at my notes, and Epstein definitely said the new term could not be material. Barbri has disagreed with that twice now. I'm now thoroughly confused as to what I should do if that fact pattern comes up on the exam.


You mixed this up with the SOF confirmatory memo exception (where the memo can be used against the non-signing party so long as all the terms are there, and no objection within 10 days). For the UCC new term thing, its if the other merchant doesn't respond within a reasonable period of time.

Once you clarify that, it becomes clear why acceptance sort of has to be at the time the acceptance was sent out. How long is a "reasonable time"? At what magical moment would that lack of objection retroactively turn the thing into acceptance? Sure, if you thought it was 10 days, then you have a concrete thing you would be looking for in the answers, which wouldn't be there (a date 10 days after the memo was sent). But since its reasonable time, theres no practical way to wait for a magic moment. If he in fact didn't object, then the acceptance is good when it was sent.

And even if it did alter materially the terms (or even if the other party objected to the term), the new term simply drops out. The acceptance for the rest is still valid when sent. The whole "alteration of terms" sort of implies that, to a certain extent, it accepts the deal, but is changing something up on the margin. Thus, there is always going to be acceptance for the bulk of the deal (unless the other merchant goes totally the other way, and essentially counteroffers).


Okay that second part makes perfect sense. Even if the terms were materially altered, if the term isn't conditional, then a contract has been formed. The altered term simply drops out. Thanks.

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Re: BarBri Thread: People taking Barbri for July 2013 exam

Postby jawsthegreat » Thu Jul 25, 2013 3:01 pm

Matteliszt wrote:
kaiser wrote:So, assuming a mid 150's MBE score, how do you need to do on the NY essays to pass? They scale the essays, and I'm not sure how the scoring works there either. And they keep telling us that, if you get approx. 135 scaled on MBE, you need a 5 scaled essay average to pass. So how do you think that essay average decreases as MBE score goes up? I wonder how much leeway you get, since I"m gonna need it for certain subjects.



http://www.seperac.com/calc-bar-f13.php

Can get a written average of 45, with a 39 MPT and 23/50 on the NYMC and still score a 665 with a straight 150. In other words, you can fail every essay (protip: you won't). Realistically you'll probably score something like 6/5/5/4/4 on a bad essay draw if you're reasonably prepared(Assuming you miss a few issues on the 4s). You already know it's going to be Crim Law/Pro/NYPractice/Family/Corps/Contracts/Torts/Wills/Potentially another subject. I did the exam from Feb 2013, You probably could have passed 3 of the 5 essays on straight MBE knowledge alone(Torts/Contracts/Evidence), and you still have the MPT. So even if you just made something up for the other 2 essays which you knew NOTHING(and I mean NOTHING), about you could probably pull a 2-3 and pass, because you'd be looking at something like 55/55/55/25/25, and a 150, which means you have to really delivery on the MPT.



So the essays are out of 100? Meaning a 45 is a 45/100, or in other words a 4.5?

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jawsthegreat
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Re: BarBri Thread: People taking Barbri for July 2013 exam

Postby jawsthegreat » Thu Jul 25, 2013 3:07 pm

Also, I haven't even looked at an MPT yet. Dunno if it's worth it at this point.

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Re: BarBri Thread: People taking Barbri for July 2013 exam

Postby taxman021 » Thu Jul 25, 2013 3:30 pm

jawsthegreat wrote:Also, I haven't even looked at an MPT yet. Dunno if it's worth it at this point.



same, does anybody have any tips on how much time i should spend reviewing/learning mpt's?

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Re: BarBri Thread: People taking Barbri for July 2013 exam

Postby bgdddymtty » Thu Jul 25, 2013 3:33 pm

jawsthegreat wrote:Also, I haven't even looked at an MPT yet. Dunno if it's worth it at this point.
I haven't either, but I just looked over the three example candidate answers Texas provided for last July's MPT and was like, yup, it's an LRW assignment. I'll probably look over one or two to get the feel of the library of information. It seems like if you get the hang of where they tend to hide the relevant precedents, the memo/letter/whatever should pretty much write itself.

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Re: BarBri Thread: People taking Barbri for July 2013 exam

Postby PitchO20 » Thu Jul 25, 2013 3:38 pm

Matteliszt wrote:
kaiser wrote:So, assuming a mid 150's MBE score, how do you need to do on the NY essays to pass? They scale the essays, and I'm not sure how the scoring works there either. And they keep telling us that, if you get approx. 135 scaled on MBE, you need a 5 scaled essay average to pass. So how do you think that essay average decreases as MBE score goes up? I wonder how much leeway you get, since I"m gonna need it for certain subjects.



http://www.seperac.com/calc-bar-f13.php

Can get a written average of 45, with a 39 MPT and 23/50 on the NYMC and still score a 665 with a straight 150. In other words, you can fail every essay (protip: you won't). Realistically you'll probably score something like 6/5/5/4/4 on a bad essay draw if you're reasonably prepared(Assuming you miss a few issues on the 4s). You already know it's going to be Crim Law/Pro/NYPractice/Family/Corps/Contracts/Torts/Wills/Potentially another subject. I did the exam from Feb 2013, You probably could have passed 3 of the 5 essays on straight MBE knowledge alone(Torts/Contracts/Evidence), and you still have the MPT. So even if you just made something up for the other 2 essays which you knew NOTHING(and I mean NOTHING), about you could probably pull a 2-3 and pass, because you'd be looking at something like 55/55/55/25/25, and a 150, which means you have to really delivery on the MPT.


I just did the Feb 2013 essays too, and if our essays are going to be similar, I'd sign that deal right now. They really only hit major topics and the interrogatories were very straight forward.

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Re: BarBri Thread: People taking Barbri for July 2013 exam

Postby c3pO4 » Thu Jul 25, 2013 3:40 pm

anybody else hit the wall and feel like a day of light outline review in bed while watching Bravo would be more strategic than grinding out MBE #2000-2100 and outlining essays #125-130? i'm not being lazy, i honestly think this is the best way to prepare given state of exhaustion. thoughts? should i just sack up and get grinding?




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