drop put and re-apply? or hanging on and more debt?

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smallpotatosmall
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Re: drop put and re-apply? or hanging on and more debt?

Postby smallpotatosmall » Fri May 24, 2013 6:35 pm

smallpotatosmall wrote:
mr.hands wrote:
smallpotatosmall wrote:They accused me that a whole page of my brief included the work of a case and law review, I remember I quote the case, but never law review. So far as I know, my writing professor told me sometimes if you want to describe a case, it is better to quote one from other cases which cite this case. And I did that in my 1st semester's brief, no problem, although I have bunch of citation problems, always quotation mark on paraphrase of a case, or quote a paragraph but no citation, although I know this is allowed in the 1st semester, but not 2nd.
I even pulled all-nighters for the brief for I want to make sure I quote everything. I never paraphrased anything I wanted to quote, so there is no accusation regarding to I want to steal others' thoughts in sneaking ways, but word by word "copy" without citation. I said I was always confused about the citation rule, and I never intended to plagiarize others' work. But the dean told me "intent" is not an element for plagiarism, what has been done was done. They accused me of attaining unfair advantage, for I turned in work for credit with work from others.


Sure, but on this paper you didn't cite anything?

In other words: Did the entire page in question have zero citations? Or did you cite one case but just use the wrong case and omit the correct one?

(For future reference, you shouldn't be writing more than 2 sentences without citing to something. If you write a paragraph- or, worse, a page- without a citation, you're doing something wrong. Error on the side of over-citing)

EDIT: I'll echo anony.mouse's comment. I was wondering the same thing



No, I copied the part of a case, which means if there are citations in that case, I have those citations, if there isn't, they no. I have a lot of citations on that page. I think this is fine, since it works for the last semester, and whey I submitted it as the first draft, nobody pointed to me I was wrong.



Sorry about this. I am too devastated now. I mean, in the part of my brief, where the problem arises from, I have citations. But the citation is within the case I cite. That is to say, the case is talking about rules while citing cases, and I copied the rules and those cases reference altogether. I did this for the 1st semester brief, no problem, but now it is such a big deal.

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Bronte
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Re: drop put and re-apply? or hanging on and more debt?

Postby Bronte » Fri May 24, 2013 6:41 pm

A. Nony Mouse wrote:
smallpotatosmall wrote:No, I copied the part of a case, which means if there are citations in that case, I have those citations, if there isn't, they no. I have a lot of citations on that page. I think this is fine, since it works for the last semester, and whey I submitted it as the first draft, nobody pointed to me I was wrong.

I'm sorry, but I really don't understand what this means.


He copied an entire page wholesale from a case. So there are citations on that page because there were citations within the case. Like this:

Article III could neither serve its purpose in the system of checks and balances nor preserve the integrity of judicial decisionmaking if the other branches of the Federal Government could confer the Government's “judicial Power” on entities outside Article III. That is why we have long recognized that, in general, Congress may not “withdraw from judicial cognizance any matter which, from its nature, is the subject of a suit at the common law, or in equity, or admiralty.” Murray's Lessee v. Hoboken Land & Improvement Co., 59 U.S. 272, 18 How. 272, 284, 15 L.Ed. 372 (1856). When a suit is made of “the stuff of the traditional actions at common law tried by the courts at Westminster in 1789,” Northern Pipeline, 458 U.S., at 90, 102 S.Ct. 2858 (Rehnquist, J., concurring in judgment), and is brought within the bounds of federal jurisdiction, the responsibility for deciding that suit rests with Article III judges in Article III courts. The Constitution assigns that job—resolution of “the mundane as well as the glamorous, matters of common law and statute as well as constitutional law, issues of fact as well as issues of law”—to the Judiciary. Id., at 86–87, n. 39, 102 S.Ct. 2858 (plurality opinion).

smallpotatosmall
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Re: drop put and re-apply? or hanging on and more debt?

Postby smallpotatosmall » Fri May 24, 2013 6:44 pm

Bronte is right on this.

mr.hands
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Re: drop put and re-apply? or hanging on and more debt?

Postby mr.hands » Fri May 24, 2013 6:45 pm

Ooh ok. Gotcha. That makes sense

Is that an accurate representation OP? If so, that's more difficult to defend.

Out of curiosity, around where is this school ranked? (20-30, 30-40; TTTT, etc). That may have some bearing on what the school is willing to do in response

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Joe Quincy
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Re: drop put and re-apply? or hanging on and more debt?

Postby Joe Quincy » Fri May 24, 2013 6:47 pm

smallpotatosmall wrote:I mean, in the part of my brief, where the problem arises from, I have citations. But the citation is within the case I cite. That is to say, the case is talking about rules while citing cases, and I copied the rules and those cases reference altogether. I did this for the 1st semester brief, no problem, but now it is such a big deal.


You don't need an appeal because this is such egregious plagiarism you'll never win. Even if you had offset and cited the source, you can't just reproduce an entire page of text. There is no way you thought doing so without a cite at all was acceptable under your honor code. This isn't a block quote. This is you attempting to earn a grade by blatantly turning in someone else's work.

You also said your 1L you had some citation mistakes like "quote a paragraph but no citation." If so, this isn't your first offense and it seems like you've probably been warned in the past.

I'm sorry but, apart from the plagiarism, your writing here suggests you aren't ready to be a lawyer anyhow and would have difficulty. Its just such a text heavy endeavor. And your grades reinforce my hunch about how it would impact you.

I vote for drop out and find something you're better suited to. Explaining this when applying for the bar would be difficult. Even if you made it through, you're probably looking at a minimum of one hearing (possible several) and requiring a lawyer who specializes in this. Even being admitted to the bar could cost you tens of thousands of dollars and could take several years. And after all that, its not clear you're employable as you express in OP.

smallpotatosmall
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Re: drop put and re-apply? or hanging on and more debt?

Postby smallpotatosmall » Fri May 24, 2013 6:53 pm

T 30-40.

When they gave me the hand-write sanction, I know I can hardly defend this, because that is a copy, word by word, they printed out the case and showed that to me. How could I deny? But I didn't realize this is plagiarism.

I was always struggling with writing, my writing professor always knows, and the bad citation, he also knows. I even consulted about the quotation issue, I thought I was right about this finally, but turned out otherwise.

The mistake may happen when I wrote the first draft, I thought I would change table of authorities, so I didn't make quotation mark all over the place, I just made marks on some part.

ClubberLang
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Re: drop put and re-apply? or hanging on and more debt?

Postby ClubberLang » Fri May 24, 2013 6:56 pm

Just assume another identity and retake. If this is not a flame, what the hell were you thinking?

Seriously though, probably time to cut your losses.

smallpotatosmall
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Re: drop put and re-apply? or hanging on and more debt?

Postby smallpotatosmall » Fri May 24, 2013 6:59 pm

Thanks for your opinion, Joe Quincy.

The briefs for the 1st semester had marks on the margin where my citation is omitted. I also had office hour with my professor to discuss with how to cite. I don't know whether this is warning.

My grades are not good, I admit, but that is for other reasons. But you probably are right about this, that writing is so important for lawyers, now I should either admit I am a cheater or admit I am a stupid student with low intelligence. Either way, it is not gonna give me more prospect for a position.

Myself
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Postby Myself » Fri May 24, 2013 7:00 pm

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Last edited by Myself on Fri Nov 29, 2013 1:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

mr.hands
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Re: drop put and re-apply? or hanging on and more debt?

Postby mr.hands » Fri May 24, 2013 7:02 pm

smallpotatosmall wrote:T 30-40.

When they gave me the hand-write sanction, I know I can hardly defend this, because that is a copy, word by word, they printed out the case and showed that to me. How could I deny? But I didn't realize this is plagiarism.

I was always struggling with writing, my writing professor always knows, and the bad citation, he also knows. I even consulted about the quotation issue, I thought I was right about this finally, but turned out otherwise.

The mistake may happen when I wrote the first draft, I thought I would change table of authorities, so I didn't make quotation mark all over the place, I just made marks on some part.


Assuming this isn't a flame...

Earlier, someone suggested that you must've had a warning in the past? Did you professor warn you of these citation problems on an earlier assignment?

Also, where are you from?

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Joe Quincy
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Re: drop put and re-apply? or hanging on and more debt?

Postby Joe Quincy » Fri May 24, 2013 7:04 pm

smallpotatosmall wrote: I didn't realize this is plagiarism.


Not that it matters, but I'm curious what you thought it was if not this? You copied a large section of another's work, without attribution, and turned it in word-for-word for your own benefit.

You made a really really stupid mistake. But this isn't the end of your life. Find some other profession where you'll be happy and move on. Quite frankly, if it wasn't this something else would have derailed you.

Your poor english skills don't mean your stupid per se. Just that this isn't a good fit for you and your law school should have realized this and not let you in to begin with. Find something else that makes you happy.

Myself
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Postby Myself » Fri May 24, 2013 7:04 pm

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Last edited by Myself on Fri Nov 29, 2013 1:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

mr.hands
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Re: drop put and re-apply? or hanging on and more debt?

Postby mr.hands » Fri May 24, 2013 7:06 pm

ajax adonis wrote:
smallpotatosmall wrote:Thanks for your opinion, Joe Quincy.

The briefs for the 1st semester had marks on the margin where my citation is omitted. I also had office hour with my professor to discuss with how to cite. I don't know whether this is warning.

My grades are not good, I admit, but that is for other reasons. But you probably are right about this, that writing is so important for lawyers, now I should either admit I am a cheater or admit I am a stupid student with low intelligence. Either way, it is not gonna give me more prospect for a position.


Troll/flame.


Given that the language has gotten increasingly worse, I tend to agree.

EDIT: scooped. Didn't see your comment until now
Last edited by mr.hands on Fri May 24, 2013 7:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Joe Quincy
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Re: drop put and re-apply? or hanging on and more debt?

Postby Joe Quincy » Fri May 24, 2013 7:07 pm

mr.hands wrote:
ajax adonis wrote:Troll/flame.


Given that the language has gotten increasingly worse, I tend to agree.


Yeah

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jessuf
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Re: drop put and re-apply? or hanging on and more debt?

Postby jessuf » Fri May 24, 2013 7:10 pm

Image

:?:

NYstate
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Re: drop put and re-apply? or hanging on and more debt?

Postby NYstate » Fri May 24, 2013 7:10 pm

Just find a lawyer to help you with this. Talk to your local bar association helpline. They may give you a free consult or one at minimum cost.

I don't think this will take years to sort out. I know someone who was admitted after she embezzled money from a law school club to pay some law school costs. This doesn't have to be the end of the world.

You need expert advice.

This isn't an option between cheater or low intelligence. You need to calm down. You don't have to do anything this weekend. Just try to calm down and don't panic. On Tuesday make some calls. If your school gave you any kind of deadline tell them you need more time as you are seeking advice.

You can always drop out.

NanaP
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Re: drop put and re-apply? or hanging on and more debt?

Postby NanaP » Fri May 24, 2013 7:11 pm

Joe Quincy wrote:
smallpotatosmall wrote:I mean, in the part of my brief, where the problem arises from, I have citations. But the citation is within the case I cite. That is to say, the case is talking about rules while citing cases, and I copied the rules and those cases reference altogether. I did this for the 1st semester brief, no problem, but now it is such a big deal.


You don't need an appeal because this is such egregious plagiarism you'll never win. Even if you had offset and cited the source, you can't just reproduce an entire page of text. There is no way you thought doing so without a cite at all was acceptable under your honor code. This isn't a block quote. This is you attempting to earn a grade by blatantly turning in someone else's work.

You also said your 1L you had some citation mistakes like "quote a paragraph but no citation." If so, this isn't your first offense and it seems like you've probably been warned in the past.

I'm sorry but, apart from the plagiarism, your writing here suggests you aren't ready to be a lawyer anyhow and would have difficulty. Its just such a text heavy endeavor. And your grades reinforce my hunch about how it would impact you.

I vote for drop out and find something you're better suited to. Explaining this when applying for the bar would be difficult. Even if you made it through, you're probably looking at a minimum of one hearing (possible several) and requiring a lawyer who specializes in this. Even being admitted to the bar could cost you tens of thousands of dollars and could take several years. And after all that, its not clear you're employable as you express in OP.



Sheesh...No need to put him/her down...I'm sure the OP already feels terrible without you calling him.her stupid.....it is what it is...I think the OP should graduate since he/she is almost done, why waste 90K just to not finish? At worst the OP will have a degree, maybe try to get a non JD required position...they didn't kick you out of school, so take that as a positive.

mr.hands
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Re: drop put and re-apply? or hanging on and more debt?

Postby mr.hands » Fri May 24, 2013 7:15 pm

(Also, as if this weren't a flame, copying everything including case citations is worse than just taking the text of the opinion. It suggests that you came up with those ideas yourself and cited those authorities on your own, based on *your* research and bluebooking. Even if English isn't your first language, I can't imagine any academic culture/atmosphere/scenario in which that would be ok.)

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Joe Quincy
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Re: drop put and re-apply? or hanging on and more debt?

Postby Joe Quincy » Fri May 24, 2013 7:18 pm

NanaP wrote:Sheesh...No need to put him/her down...I'm sure the OP already feels terrible without you calling him.her stupid.....it is what it is...I think the OP should graduate since he/she is almost done, why waste 90K just to not finish? At worst the OP will have a degree, maybe try to get a non JD required position...they didn't kick you out of school, so take that as a positive.


Assuming not a flame, he's in this position in the first place because people weren't honest with him. And the $90K was after 3 years, why incur another $30K to not have a job? There is also a fairly well known phenomena where having a JD on you resume HURTS greatly in hiring if you're not going for a legal position. Everywhere entry level assumes you will leave. If he finds another grad program, he may be able to transfer in some of his credits so his $60K isn't a total loss.

Nor did I EVER call OP stupid.

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Jsa725
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Re: drop put and re-apply? or hanging on and more debt?

Postby Jsa725 » Fri May 24, 2013 7:32 pm

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Last edited by Jsa725 on Fri Oct 24, 2014 11:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

smallpotatosmall
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Re: drop put and re-apply? or hanging on and more debt?

Postby smallpotatosmall » Fri May 24, 2013 7:35 pm

NYstate wrote:Just find a lawyer to help you with this. Talk to your local bar association helpline. They may give you a free consult or one at minimum cost.

I don't think this will take years to sort out. I know someone who was admitted after she embezzled money from a law school club to pay some law school costs. This doesn't have to be the end of the world.

You need expert advice.

This isn't an option between cheater or low intelligence. You need to calm down. You don't have to do anything this weekend. Just try to calm down and don't panic. On Tuesday make some calls. If your school gave you any kind of deadline tell them you need more time as you are seeking advice.

You can always drop out.



Thanks! I am really panicked now. I will see what I can do now. Even if I drop put in the end, I really do not want to walk away with shame.

smallpotatosmall
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Re: drop put and re-apply? or hanging on and more debt?

Postby smallpotatosmall » Fri May 24, 2013 7:36 pm

Jsa725 wrote:If, if, if, you stay, OP:

1) call anonymous state bar ethics hotline and ask what you should do
2) find a pro bono attorney
3) do what ethics hotline or pro bono attorney dude tells you to do

/thread


Thanks, thanks for the nice words, also, your suggestion.

NanaP
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Re: drop put and re-apply? or hanging on and more debt?

Postby NanaP » Fri May 24, 2013 7:37 pm

Joe Quincy wrote:
NanaP wrote:Sheesh...No need to put him/her down...I'm sure the OP already feels terrible without you calling him.her stupid.....it is what it is...I think the OP should graduate since he/she is almost done, why waste 90K just to not finish? At worst the OP will have a degree, maybe try to get a non JD required position...they didn't kick you out of school, so take that as a positive.


Assuming not a flame, he's in this position in the first place because people weren't honest with him. And the $90K was after 3 years, why incur another $30K to not have a job? There is also a fairly well known phenomena where having a JD on you resume HURTS greatly in hiring if you're not going for a legal position. Everywhere entry level assumes you will leave. If he finds another grad program, he may be able to transfer in some of his credits so his $60K isn't a total loss.

Nor did I EVER call OP stupid.


"I'm sorry but, apart from the plagiarism, your writing here suggests you aren't ready to be a lawyer anyhow and would have difficulty. Its just such a text heavy endeavor. And your grades reinforce my hunch about how it would impact you"

It was pretty much assumed from what you said...anyway, that's neither here nor there

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Jsa725
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Re: drop put and re-apply? or hanging on and more debt?

Postby Jsa725 » Fri May 24, 2013 7:39 pm

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Last edited by Jsa725 on Fri Oct 24, 2014 11:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Joe Quincy
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Re: drop put and re-apply? or hanging on and more debt?

Postby Joe Quincy » Fri May 24, 2013 7:47 pm

NanaP wrote:
Joe Quincy wrote:
NanaP wrote:Sheesh...No need to put him/her down...I'm sure the OP already feels terrible without you calling him.her stupid.....it is what it is...I think the OP should graduate since he/she is almost done, why waste 90K just to not finish? At worst the OP will have a degree, maybe try to get a non JD required position...they didn't kick you out of school, so take that as a positive.


Assuming not a flame, he's in this position in the first place because people weren't honest with him. And the $90K was after 3 years, why incur another $30K to not have a job? There is also a fairly well known phenomena where having a JD on you resume HURTS greatly in hiring if you're not going for a legal position. Everywhere entry level assumes you will leave. If he finds another grad program, he may be able to transfer in some of his credits so his $60K isn't a total loss.

Nor did I EVER call OP stupid.


"I'm sorry but, apart from the plagiarism, your writing here suggests you aren't ready to be a lawyer anyhow and would have difficulty. Its just such a text heavy endeavor. And your grades reinforce my hunch about how it would impact you"

It was pretty much assumed from what you said...anyway, that's neither here nor there


No where do I say anything about OP's intelligence. I said his lack of English skills would affect his career as it is affecting his grades. Lack of English skills ≠ intelligence.




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