drop put and re-apply? or hanging on and more debt?

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smallpotatosmall
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drop put and re-apply? or hanging on and more debt?

Postby smallpotatosmall » Fri May 24, 2013 2:46 pm

Yesterday I was accused of plagiarism for my LW course, because I have a bulk block quote without citation. I was disciplined and on probation. Today I received my 2nd semester's grades, and it's Bs and one C, which put me just above 3.0 a little bit. I'm in a T30 school, with this GPA, no big law. With my sanction, probably no government, no judiciary work. Basically, I felt I'm done.

How could I go on with these numbers and dismal future, and going on means more debt, probably $90,000 after 3 years. But I really like the idea of being a lawyer, and I am a senior student now, I don't have more time to waste. My 1st semester still had As and honors, but now, I don't even dare to think about this semester.

Could I re-do LSAT and re-apply? I asked the dean of my school, who told me the sanction is gonna follow me for life if I ever want to stay in the legal profession. I wanna kill myself now. I cannot sleep, cannot eat now. Please advise me, tlser. Or should I just drop out for good?

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smaug_
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Re: drop put and re-apply? or hanging on and more debt?

Postby smaug_ » Fri May 24, 2013 2:49 pm

smallpotatosmall wrote:Yesterday I was accused of plagiarism for my LW course, because I have a bulk block quote without citation. I was disciplined and on probation. Today I received my 2nd semester's grades, and it's Bs and one C, which put me just above 3.0 a little bit. I'm in a T30 school, with this GPA, no big law. With my sanction, probably no government, no judiciary work. Basically, I felt I'm done.

How could I go on with these numbers and dismal future, and going on means more debt, probably $90,000 after 3 years. But I really like the idea of being a lawyer, and I am a senior student now, I don't have more time to waste. My 1st semester still had As and honors, but now, I don't even dare to think about this semester.

Could I re-do LSAT and re-apply? I asked the dean of my school, who told me the sanction is gonna follow me for life if I ever want to stay in the legal profession. I wanna kill myself now. I cannot sleep, cannot eat now. Please advise me, tlser. Or should I just drop out for good?


If you're real, tell us the school. If not, I get the distinct feeling you're just a boring flame. Be more like this flame:
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(it looks cool)

smallpotatosmall
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Re: drop put and re-apply? or hanging on and more debt?

Postby smallpotatosmall » Fri May 24, 2013 2:54 pm

hibiki wrote:
smallpotatosmall wrote:Yesterday I was accused of plagiarism for my LW course, because I have a bulk block quote without citation. I was disciplined and on probation. Today I received my 2nd semester's grades, and it's Bs and one C, which put me just above 3.0 a little bit. I'm in a T30 school, with this GPA, no big law. With my sanction, probably no government, no judiciary work. Basically, I felt I'm done.

How could I go on with these numbers and dismal future, and going on means more debt, probably $90,000 after 3 years. But I really like the idea of being a lawyer, and I am a senior student now, I don't have more time to waste. My 1st semester still had As and honors, but now, I don't even dare to think about this semester.

Could I re-do LSAT and re-apply? I asked the dean of my school, who told me the sanction is gonna follow me for life if I ever want to stay in the legal profession. I wanna kill myself now. I cannot sleep, cannot eat now. Please advise me, tlser. Or should I just drop out for good?


If you're real, tell us the school. If not, I get the distinct feeling you're just a boring flame. Be more like this flame:

(it looks cool)



what do you mean? Pls don't make fun of me. I cannot tell you my school, of course, since this is so humiliating. I really don't know what to do now. I read lots of threads yesterday about plagiarism, and just found out most of them came from ugl or high school. How could I argue with this? I didn't cite, and there are two big paragraphs without citation, I didn't even paraphrase, anyone google it or check the sentence with westlaw would know that is from one case.

This does seem like I should just quit.

NYstate
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Re: drop put and re-apply? or hanging on and more debt?

Postby NYstate » Fri May 24, 2013 2:59 pm

Find an expert in legal ethics and get them to advocate for you with the school. You were obviously quoting if you had it in a block quote.

Call the local or state bar association to get recommendations for good lawyers who specialize in this stuff. Even if you decide to drop out, at least fight this plagiarism charge.

smallpotatosmall
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Re: drop put and re-apply? or hanging on and more debt?

Postby smallpotatosmall » Fri May 24, 2013 3:06 pm

NYstate wrote:Find an expert in legal ethics and get them to advocate for you with the school. You were obviously quoting if you had it in a block quote.

Call the local or state bar association to get recommendations for good lawyers who specialize in this stuff. Even if you decide to drop out, at least fight this plagiarism charge.


Thanks very much! What if one of the paragraph is not in the block quote format, just one paragraph? Do you recommend me consult legal ethics professors in our school? But the dean told me it is not appropriate, since the school is against me.

I don't want to quit, it's just I cannot see a future. The job-hunting is already hard, not this sanction just add another difficulty onto it. And it seems even if I want to drop out and re-apply, this sanction would follow me, and it would places me bad.

NYstate
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Re: drop put and re-apply? or hanging on and more debt?

Postby NYstate » Fri May 24, 2013 3:21 pm

smallpotatosmall wrote:
NYstate wrote:Find an expert in legal ethics and get them to advocate for you with the school. You were obviously quoting if you had it in a block quote.

Call the local or state bar association to get recommendations for good lawyers who specialize in this stuff. Even if you decide to drop out, at least fight this plagiarism charge.


Thanks very much! What if one of the paragraph is not in the block quote format, just one paragraph? Do you recommend me consult legal ethics professors in our school? But the dean told me it is not appropriate, since the school is against me.

I don't want to quit, it's just I cannot see a future. The job-hunting is already hard, not this sanction just add another difficulty onto it. And it seems even if I want to drop out and re-apply, this sanction would follow me, and it would places me bad.


You can't drop out and reapply. Don't get advice from a professor.

Myself
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Postby Myself » Fri May 24, 2013 3:25 pm

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Last edited by Myself on Fri Nov 29, 2013 1:21 am, edited 2 times in total.

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JamMasterJ
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Re: drop put and re-apply? or hanging on and more debt?

Postby JamMasterJ » Fri May 24, 2013 3:27 pm

smallpotatosmall wrote:
NYstate wrote:Find an expert in legal ethics and get them to advocate for you with the school. You were obviously quoting if you had it in a block quote.

Call the local or state bar association to get recommendations for good lawyers who specialize in this stuff. Even if you decide to drop out, at least fight this plagiarism charge.


Thanks very much! What if one of the paragraph is not in the block quote format, just one paragraph? Do you recommend me consult legal ethics professors in our school? But the dean told me it is not appropriate, since the school is against me.

I don't want to quit, it's just I cannot see a future. The job-hunting is already hard, not this sanction just add another difficulty onto it. And it seems even if I want to drop out and re-apply, this sanction would follow me, and it would places me bad.

asking TLS for legal advice is a terrible idea. Most don't know the answer, and even those who might aren't really allowed to give it to you per bar restrictions. You really need to talk to a lawyer about the disciplinary sanction, then go from there as to what your options are - at this point, your school's probably a better source than internet ppl

smallpotatosmall
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Re: drop put and re-apply? or hanging on and more debt?

Postby smallpotatosmall » Fri May 24, 2013 4:50 pm

Thanks, guys. You are right, for the charge, I need to consult a lawyer, but what about other options?

Because I have to think about the worst situation and what options do I have, right? What about I cannot afford a lawyer and therefore I end up with a formal sanction? Or just disciplinary warning but it is gonna stay in my record anyway. Even if I go through the hearing and succeed the charge, the dean told me I won't have this letter go away, they would just put another letter saying I win a case at the hearing.

So now I am thinking about could I re-apply with this? I mean, this semester was too rough for me, I was struggling with financial reasons, and was severely affected by my bad financial situation. That's way I almost flunked almost every course. And right now I just lost confidence for next semester, for the problems still exist.

And one post said, re-apply is not even an option, would someone explain that to me why this is not even an option?

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: drop put and re-apply? or hanging on and more debt?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri May 24, 2013 5:04 pm

I think you can't reapply because if this kind of sanction is going to follow you forever and doom you in the legal profession (not saying that's the case, I don't know, but assuming it's the case for the sake of argument), it will also follow you to a new law school and doom you there, too. A new application won't clean the slate. (You'll have to send your current law school transcript/record to the new school, for instance.)

Myself
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Postby Myself » Fri May 24, 2013 5:24 pm

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Last edited by Myself on Fri Nov 29, 2013 1:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Bronte
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Re: drop put and re-apply? or hanging on and more debt?

Postby Bronte » Fri May 24, 2013 5:31 pm

It's going to be all right. It seems like the worst thing ever now, but you can recover from it. You should probably adjust to the possibility that you might have to leave the legal profession. That's not the end of the world. It's not that great anyway.

smallpotatosmall
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Re: drop put and re-apply? or hanging on and more debt?

Postby smallpotatosmall » Fri May 24, 2013 5:32 pm

ajax adonis wrote:
smallpotatosmall wrote:Thanks, guys. You are right, for the charge, I need to consult a lawyer, but what about other options?

Because I have to think about the worst situation and what options do I have, right? What about I cannot afford a lawyer and therefore I end up with a formal sanction? Or just disciplinary warning but it is gonna stay in my record anyway. Even if I go through the hearing and succeed the charge, the dean told me I won't have this letter go away, they would just put another letter saying I win a case at the hearing.

So now I am thinking about could I re-apply with this? I mean, this semester was too rough for me, I was struggling with financial reasons, and was severely affected by my bad financial situation. That's way I almost flunked almost every course. And right now I just lost confidence for next semester, for the problems still exist.

And one post said, re-apply is not even an option, would someone explain that to me why this is not even an option?


Why not take a leave and take some time to think your options through?



Defer a year? With this GPA? Do you guys think I am done with law school or with grad school as a whole? If the sanction would be true? The dean told me I could still pass the bar as long as I provide an explanation and this thing never happen again.

smallpotatosmall
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Re: drop put and re-apply? or hanging on and more debt?

Postby smallpotatosmall » Fri May 24, 2013 5:36 pm

Bronte wrote:It's going to be all right. It seems like the worst thing ever now, but you can recover from it. You should probably adjust to the possibility that you might have to leave the legal profession. That's not the end of the world. It's not that great anyway.



I cannot believe this is it. I walked so far, with my parents' expectation. I return them failure and humiliation. I am so depressed.

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Jsa725
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Re: drop put and re-apply? or hanging on and more debt?

Postby Jsa725 » Fri May 24, 2013 5:38 pm

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Last edited by Jsa725 on Fri Oct 24, 2014 11:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Joe Quincy
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Re: drop put and re-apply? or hanging on and more debt?

Postby Joe Quincy » Fri May 24, 2013 5:39 pm

Before you worry about jobs, realize that most (if not all) state C&F's require disclosure of this violation no matter the outcome of the formal hearing. I'd start with your state's board of bar examiners.

I find it hard to believe they put you on probation for a "block quote" unless it was a little more sinister...like outright plagiarism. In which case, you dug your own hole.

Also, the point of a block quote is its offset. Without such indication or attribution its the most egregious form of plagiarism, direct copying of large amounts of text.
Last edited by Joe Quincy on Fri May 24, 2013 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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I.P. Daly
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Re: drop put and re-apply? or hanging on and more debt?

Postby I.P. Daly » Fri May 24, 2013 5:46 pm

Can you provide more information about the plagiarism issue? It seems odd that your school would come down so hard on you if it was an honest mistake. Unless, of course, your professor devoted a lot of time to that issue and you skipped out on those classes.

Also, surely your school has a formal appeals process.

Redfactor
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Re: drop put and re-apply? or hanging on and more debt?

Postby Redfactor » Fri May 24, 2013 5:48 pm

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Last edited by Redfactor on Mon Sep 09, 2013 6:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

mr.hands
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Re: drop put and re-apply? or hanging on and more debt?

Postby mr.hands » Fri May 24, 2013 5:53 pm

smallpotatosmall wrote:Yesterday I was accused of plagiarism for my LW course, because I have a bulk block quote without citation. I was disciplined and on probation. Today I received my 2nd semester's grades, and it's Bs and one C, which put me just above 3.0 a little bit. I'm in a T30 school, with this GPA, no big law. With my sanction, probably no government, no judiciary work. Basically, I felt I'm done.

How could I go on with these numbers and dismal future, and going on means more debt, probably $90,000 after 3 years. But I really like the idea of being a lawyer, and I am a senior student now, I don't have more time to waste. My 1st semester still had As and honors, but now, I don't even dare to think about this semester.

Could I re-do LSAT and re-apply? I asked the dean of my school, who told me the sanction is gonna follow me for life if I ever want to stay in the legal profession. I wanna kill myself now. I cannot sleep, cannot eat now. Please advise me, tlser. Or should I just drop out for good?


Let me start by saying that i'm not qualified to offer legal advice. I'm just a lay person asking 1 question and offering 1 opinion. Start by trying to do some research, then get a lawyer if you need to. Redfactor is right: the cost of a lawyer is nothing compared to what you've spent so far in your legal education

Now that that's out of the way, we need more info about what was plagarized. I realize that you took something word-for-word and put it in a paragraph without quotes, but what was it drawn from? If it was a law review article, you're in trouble. If from a case that you cited somewhere else in your paper it's easier to work with. Need more info.

Dropping out and re-applying is probably not a great plan. That's a tough process because it would require you to first commit to dropping out and then rolling the dice at law schools. Not a safe bet. If you aren't comfortable with jumping ship altogether, you shouldn't be comfortable reapplying.

EDIT: also, what type of work have you secured for this summer?

smallpotatosmall
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Re: drop put and re-apply? or hanging on and more debt?

Postby smallpotatosmall » Fri May 24, 2013 6:14 pm

They accused me that a whole page of my brief included the work of a case and law review, I remember I quote the case, but never law review. So far as I know, my writing professor told me sometimes if you want to describe a case, it is better to quote one from other cases which cite this case. And I did that in my 1st semester's brief, no problem, although I have bunch of citation problems, always quotation mark on paraphrase of a case, or quote a paragraph but no citation, although I know this is allowed in the 1st semester, but not 2nd.
I even pulled all-nighters for the brief for I want to make sure I quote everything. I never paraphrased anything I wanted to quote, so there is no accusation regarding to I want to steal others' thoughts in sneaking ways, but word by word "copy" without citation. I said I was always confused about the citation rule, and I never intended to plagiarize others' work. But the dean told me "intent" is not an element for plagiarism, what has been done was done. They accused me of attaining unfair advantage, for I turned in work for credit with work from others.

smallpotatosmall
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Re: drop put and re-apply? or hanging on and more debt?

Postby smallpotatosmall » Fri May 24, 2013 6:19 pm

mr.hands wrote:
smallpotatosmall wrote:Yesterday I was accused of plagiarism for my LW course, because I have a bulk block quote without citation. I was disciplined and on probation. Today I received my 2nd semester's grades, and it's Bs and one C, which put me just above 3.0 a little bit. I'm in a T30 school, with this GPA, no big law. With my sanction, probably no government, no judiciary work. Basically, I felt I'm done.

How could I go on with these numbers and dismal future, and going on means more debt, probably $90,000 after 3 years. But I really like the idea of being a lawyer, and I am a senior student now, I don't have more time to waste. My 1st semester still had As and honors, but now, I don't even dare to think about this semester.

Could I re-do LSAT and re-apply? I asked the dean of my school, who told me the sanction is gonna follow me for life if I ever want to stay in the legal profession. I wanna kill myself now. I cannot sleep, cannot eat now. Please advise me, tlser. Or should I just drop out for good?


Let me start by saying that i'm not qualified to offer legal advice. I'm just a lay person asking 1 question and offering 1 opinion. Start by trying to do some research, then get a lawyer if you need to. Redfactor is right: the cost of a lawyer is nothing compared to what you've spent so far in your legal education

Now that that's out of the way, we need more info about what was plagarized. I realize that you took something word-for-word and put it in a paragraph without quotes, but what was it drawn from? If it was a law review article, you're in trouble. If from a case that you cited somewhere else in your paper it's easier to work with. Need more info.

Dropping out and re-applying is probably not a great plan. That's a tough process because it would require you to first commit to dropping out and then rolling the dice at law schools. Not a safe bet. If you aren't comfortable with jumping ship altogether, you shouldn't be comfortable reapplying.

EDIT: also, what type of work have you secured for this summer?


the work for this summer is in-house intern for a technology company and RA for my professor.
I didn't even read law reviews assigned for my brief, no possibility I would copy that.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: drop put and re-apply? or hanging on and more debt?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri May 24, 2013 6:22 pm

OP, are you a non-native speaker/international student? (I used to teach college, and there are cultural differences about plagiarism that can make plagiarism in the US very confusing to students not educated in the US system. Unfortunately there is an expectation that by the time you reach law school you will understand the American expectations about plagiarism, and I think schools can be very strict about it.)

mr.hands
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Re: drop put and re-apply? or hanging on and more debt?

Postby mr.hands » Fri May 24, 2013 6:23 pm

smallpotatosmall wrote:They accused me that a whole page of my brief included the work of a case and law review, I remember I quote the case, but never law review. So far as I know, my writing professor told me sometimes if you want to describe a case, it is better to quote one from other cases which cite this case. And I did that in my 1st semester's brief, no problem, although I have bunch of citation problems, always quotation mark on paraphrase of a case, or quote a paragraph but no citation, although I know this is allowed in the 1st semester, but not 2nd.
I even pulled all-nighters for the brief for I want to make sure I quote everything. I never paraphrased anything I wanted to quote, so there is no accusation regarding to I want to steal others' thoughts in sneaking ways, but word by word "copy" without citation. I said I was always confused about the citation rule, and I never intended to plagiarize others' work. But the dean told me "intent" is not an element for plagiarism, what has been done was done. They accused me of attaining unfair advantage, for I turned in work for credit with work from others.


Sure, but on this paper you didn't cite anything?

In other words: Did the entire page in question have zero citations? Or did you cite one case but just use the wrong case and omit the correct one?

(For future reference, you shouldn't be writing more than 2 sentences without citing to something. If you write a paragraph- or, worse, a page- without a citation, you're doing something wrong. Error on the side of over-citing)

EDIT: I'll echo anony.mouse's comment. I was wondering the same thing

smallpotatosmall
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Re: drop put and re-apply? or hanging on and more debt?

Postby smallpotatosmall » Fri May 24, 2013 6:29 pm

mr.hands wrote:
smallpotatosmall wrote:They accused me that a whole page of my brief included the work of a case and law review, I remember I quote the case, but never law review. So far as I know, my writing professor told me sometimes if you want to describe a case, it is better to quote one from other cases which cite this case. And I did that in my 1st semester's brief, no problem, although I have bunch of citation problems, always quotation mark on paraphrase of a case, or quote a paragraph but no citation, although I know this is allowed in the 1st semester, but not 2nd.
I even pulled all-nighters for the brief for I want to make sure I quote everything. I never paraphrased anything I wanted to quote, so there is no accusation regarding to I want to steal others' thoughts in sneaking ways, but word by word "copy" without citation. I said I was always confused about the citation rule, and I never intended to plagiarize others' work. But the dean told me "intent" is not an element for plagiarism, what has been done was done. They accused me of attaining unfair advantage, for I turned in work for credit with work from others.


Sure, but on this paper you didn't cite anything?

In other words: Did the entire page in question have zero citations? Or did you cite one case but just use the wrong case and omit the correct one?

(For future reference, you shouldn't be writing more than 2 sentences without citing to something. If you write a paragraph- or, worse, a page- without a citation, you're doing something wrong. Error on the side of over-citing)

EDIT: I'll echo anony.mouse's comment. I was wondering the same thing



No, I copied the part of a case, which means if there are citations in that case, I have those citations, if there isn't, they no. I have a lot of citations on that page. I think this is fine, since it works for the last semester, and whey I submitted it as the first draft, nobody pointed to me I was wrong.

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A. Nony Mouse
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Re: drop put and re-apply? or hanging on and more debt?

Postby A. Nony Mouse » Fri May 24, 2013 6:30 pm

smallpotatosmall wrote:No, I copied the part of a case, which means if there are citations in that case, I have those citations, if there isn't, they no. I have a lot of citations on that page. I think this is fine, since it works for the last semester, and whey I submitted it as the first draft, nobody pointed to me I was wrong.

I'm sorry, but I really don't understand what this means.




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