Barbri AMP, WTF

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DwightSchruteFarms
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Barbri AMP, WTF

Postby DwightSchruteFarms » Sun May 19, 2013 8:00 pm

Been going through the beast that is known as Barbri AMP (Or Amp, whatever). Anyone found this to be useful? Its insanely long and I feel that I am memorizing catch phrases for answers rather than understanding the concept. Also, AMP questions seem nothing like the practice MBE questions I've seen. Is there any reason to go through every section?

FWIW, Im taking the July CA Bar

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Joe Quincy
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Re: Barbri AMP, WTF

Postby Joe Quincy » Sun May 19, 2013 8:16 pm

http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=205371

A few people (including me) have said they are skipping it or using it only for review.

AMCD
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Re: Barbri AMP, WTF

Postby AMCD » Sun May 19, 2013 10:23 pm

AMP is not supposed to represent MBE questions. It's a primer for the 6 subjects, refreshing the concepts. Then you are supposed to listen to the lectures. Then you are supposed to read the outlines. All before the course starts. I have been doing this since March and posted on another thread about this. It takes FOREVER to get through those three tasks. Still got two evidence lectures to listen to by Tuesday night to be "on track" as they suggest. Now I have kids so am trying to building in a little overlap in case something happens and I can't do one of the above for some reason. Once you have done the modules, it goes to review mode which is what you do instead of the first time process that they have assigned for homework. Instead of the "Early Start" lectures for the MBE subjects, I listened to the actual course lectures on the same subjects. Mostly they are the same lecturers. I just listen to them when driving, or doing housework -- that's about the frame of mind you have to be in to cope with the pace. It's miserable as real property, contracts and evidence are about 10 hours each!

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shepdawg
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Re: Barbri AMP, WTF

Postby shepdawg » Sun May 19, 2013 10:41 pm

I decided to stop doing AMPs after Epstein said that shit won't be on the bar exam.

AMCD
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Re: Barbri AMP, WTF

Postby AMCD » Sun May 19, 2013 11:41 pm

I don't recall him saying that. What won't be on the exam? The contracts AMPs cover the gist of all of contract law.

Geist13
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Re: Barbri AMP, WTF

Postby Geist13 » Sun May 19, 2013 11:59 pm

people are prepping for the bar prep course? this is serious?

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nevdash
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Re: Barbri AMP, WTF

Postby nevdash » Mon May 20, 2013 12:15 am

Geist13 wrote:people are prepping for the bar prep course? this is serious?

Gunners gonna gun, brah.

AntiHuman
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Re: Barbri AMP, WTF

Postby AntiHuman » Mon May 20, 2013 12:18 am

Interested in this as well. Did AMP for 3 subjects and thought it wasn't helpful. Lectures and Conviser Mini Review?

wildhaggis
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Re: Barbri AMP, WTF

Postby wildhaggis » Mon May 20, 2013 1:21 am

What's the TLS consensus on AMP?

BCLS
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Re: Barbri AMP, WTF

Postby BCLS » Mon May 20, 2013 10:31 am

i found it somewhat helpful after I reviewed the convisor outline first.

achambers528
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Re: Barbri AMP, WTF

Postby achambers528 » Mon May 20, 2013 7:33 pm

I'm an attorney with BARBRI and just wanted to clarify the point of BARBRI AMP - it might be a bit confusing.

BARBRI AMP is cutting-edge software, based off of Nobel Prize winning research. It's the only software of its kind, which is why the point of it may be unclear. As opposed to our Study Smart software, the questions are purposfully formatted differently than practice MBE questions - it doesn't test your knowledge, the software actually teaches you the black letter law for MBE topics. As the course progresses, you will want to test what you know about the MBE subjects by using our MPQ/Study Smart questions.

BARBRI AMP is time-consuming, but we have seen really great results. For example, students who completed all BARBRI AMP subjects for the summer 2012 course or the winter 2012 course scored an average of 9 points higher on our simulated MBE than those who did not. 9 points on the MBE is very significant. Learning the information in the lecture handout book should be your first priority, but BARBRI AMP will help you do so.

I hope this helps!

sequenza
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Re: Barbri AMP, WTF

Postby sequenza » Mon May 20, 2013 7:48 pm

I have been painfully working through the AMP questions and I have to say that I think it helps. If it means 9 points on my score I am going to do all the exercises!

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Joe Quincy
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Re: Barbri AMP, WTF

Postby Joe Quincy » Mon May 20, 2013 8:33 pm

achambers528 wrote:I'm an attorney with BARBRI and just wanted to clarify the point of BARBRI AMP - it might be a bit confusing.

BARBRI AMP is cutting-edge software, based off of Nobel Prize winning research. It's the only software of its kind, which is why the point of it may be unclear. As opposed to our Study Smart software, the questions are purposfully formatted differently than practice MBE questions - it doesn't test your knowledge, the software actually teaches you the black letter law for MBE topics. As the course progresses, you will want to test what you know about the MBE subjects by using our MPQ/Study Smart questions.

BARBRI AMP is time-consuming, but we have seen really great results. For example, students who completed all BARBRI AMP subjects for the summer 2012 course or the winter 2012 course scored an average of 9 points higher on our simulated MBE than those who did not. 9 points on the MBE is very significant. Learning the information in the lecture handout book should be your first priority, but BARBRI AMP will help you do so.

I hope this helps!


Don't you have a correlation/causation problem here? Anyone willing to dedicate enough time for AMP likely put more total time into studying and that additional time could be the cause of the point gains whether they were using AMP or not. Without AMP, they would have put those 30-40 hours per subject into the material in other ways and who knows, they may have made 15 point gains. A real comparison would be how students who put in the same amount of hours pre-AMP scored compared to those post-AMP. Not how those dedicated enough to do the hours AMP requires compared to those not so inclined.

Not to mention, you're judging them based upon your own simulated MBE which may over-include information covered in AMP. How about comparing them to people's ACTUAL performance on the MBE?

I get that AMP is the new shiny thing that is supposed to separate barbri. But when I see nonsensical marketing hype like that surrounding AMP I assume you don't have real data showing its worth or you'd be using more authoritative figures.

I understand the logic behind it and it seems useful after reviewing the material some. But after 2 years I have forgotten so much (and/or didn't learn it the first time) that AMP is downright unproductive to do first as recommended. I can read the CMR once and remember a substantial amount of material and then use AMP to fill in where I didn't pick up from the CMR. But doing AMP first takes a ridiculous amount of time when you have to click "I don't know yet" for nearly every question, then read the explanation, then I usually have to read the additional material or I end up back with a wrong answer on the related but different question because that wasn't covered in the explanation, etc.

achambers528
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Re: Barbri AMP, WTF

Postby achambers528 » Mon May 20, 2013 9:22 pm

Joe Quincy wrote:
achambers528 wrote:I'm an attorney with BARBRI and just wanted to clarify the point of BARBRI AMP - it might be a bit confusing.

BARBRI AMP is cutting-edge software, based off of Nobel Prize winning research. It's the only software of its kind, which is why the point of it may be unclear. As opposed to our Study Smart software, the questions are purposfully formatted differently than practice MBE questions - it doesn't test your knowledge, the software actually teaches you the black letter law for MBE topics. As the course progresses, you will want to test what you know about the MBE subjects by using our MPQ/Study Smart questions.

BARBRI AMP is time-consuming, but we have seen really great results. For example, students who completed all BARBRI AMP subjects for the summer 2012 course or the winter 2012 course scored an average of 9 points higher on our simulated MBE than those who did not. 9 points on the MBE is very significant. Learning the information in the lecture handout book should be your first priority, but BARBRI AMP will help you do so.

I hope this helps!


Don't you have a correlation/causation problem here? Anyone willing to dedicate enough time for AMP likely put more total time into studying and that additional time could be the cause of the point gains whether they were using AMP or not. Without AMP, they would have put those 30-40 hours per subject into the material in other ways and who knows, they may have made 15 point gains. A real comparison would be how students who put in the same amount of hours pre-AMP scored compared to those post-AMP. Not how those dedicated enough to do the hours AMP requires compared to those not so inclined.

Not to mention, you're judging them based upon your own simulated MBE which may over-include information covered in AMP. How about comparing them to people's ACTUAL performance on the MBE?

I get that AMP is the new shiny thing that is supposed to separate barbri. But when I see nonsensical marketing hype like that surrounding AMP I assume you don't have real data showing its worth or you'd be using more authoritative figures.

I understand the logic behind it and it seems useful after reviewing the material some. But after 2 years I have forgotten so much (and/or didn't learn it the first time) that AMP is downright unproductive to do first as recommended. I can read the CMR once and remember a substantial amount of material and then use AMP to fill in where I didn't pick up from the CMR. But doing AMP first takes a ridiculous amount of time when you have to click "I don't know yet" for nearly every question, then read the explanation, then I usually have to read the additional material or I end up back with a wrong answer on the related but different question because that wasn't covered in the explanation, etc.


Unfortunately, we can't look at actual MBE scores. Many states don't release those numbers, and if they do, they only release them to the examinees. The point of the BARBRI simulated MBE is to help you figure out where to improve - it would not do any good (for you or us) if we modified it simply to make BARBRI AMP seem more relevant. If students don't pass the bar because we fail to give them accurate assessments, our company would suffer as well. We want you to succeed. If more information would help - students who did at least half of the BARBRI AMP assignments scored 5 points above the mean on the simulated MBE. Students who completed ½ or less of the assignments scored two points below the mean.

Additionally, our entire program sets us apart from any other bar prep company, not just our BARBRI AMP software. That's why 80-90% of all bar examinees use BARBRI each year. We assign BARBRI AMP first, because, again, it teaches you the law. Yes, you will likely get many questions incorrect at the beginning, but that's fine - you are still learning.

You are free to study however you like, but we have a system in place that works and we want you to succeed. We truly believe that BARBRI AMP will help you, but we're not going to force you to do anything! :) We're always here to help if you have any concerns or questions!

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Joe Quincy
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Re: Barbri AMP, WTF

Postby Joe Quincy » Mon May 20, 2013 9:26 pm

achambers528 wrote:
The point of the BARBRI simulated MBE is to help you figure out where to improve - it would not do any good (for you or us) if we modified it simply to make BARBRI AMP seem more relevant. If students don't pass the bar because we fail to give them accurate assessments, our company would suffer as well.


Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the simulated MBE is intentionally skewed towards AMP. Just that obviously what your content people think is important/likely to be tested will be reflected in both and that creates a prior exposure problem if you were really evaluating the effectiveness of AMP as a learning modality.

Maybe barbri should setup some controlled blind study and have 2/3Ls to complete it using prior real released MBEs. Then you could really advertise its effectiveness. Or have randomly selected current students within both groups (AMP and non-AMP but similar hours studied) take a released MBE and see what the results are.

At a minimum, why not post the studies that led to the noble award? Surely there had to be proper studies comparing it to other modalities.

AntiHuman
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Re: Barbri AMP, WTF

Postby AntiHuman » Mon May 20, 2013 11:23 pm

Given the amount of time I spend per AMP(anywhere from 1.5 hrs-4 hours), wouldn't it be better to just read the dense multistate outlines and then watching the lectures? I understand the dense outlines provide too much law and might be a bit time consuming, but swapping out the AMP for dense outlines seems a better use of time?

Reason I spend so much time per AMP is I tend to guess a lot and read all the additional information(which comes from the dense outlines?)

kaiser
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Re: Barbri AMP, WTF

Postby kaiser » Mon May 20, 2013 11:50 pm

Geist13 wrote:people are prepping for the bar prep course? this is serious?


+1

I find it a bit baffling that people are prepping for prep. BarBri's job is to scare you and make you think this is all more daunting than it really is.

DwightSchruteFarms
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Re: Barbri AMP, WTF

Postby DwightSchruteFarms » Mon May 20, 2013 11:56 pm

Prepping for Bar Prep is understandable for CA

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5ky
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Re: Barbri AMP, WTF

Postby 5ky » Tue May 21, 2013 12:08 am

achambers528 wrote:I'm an attorney with BARBRI and just wanted to clarify the point of BARBRI AMP - it might be a bit confusing.

BARBRI AMP is cutting-edge software, based off of Nobel Prize winning research. It's the only software of its kind, which is why the point of it may be unclear. As opposed to our Study Smart software, the questions are purposfully formatted differently than practice MBE questions - it doesn't test your knowledge, the software actually teaches you the black letter law for MBE topics. As the course progresses, you will want to test what you know about the MBE subjects by using our MPQ/Study Smart questions.

BARBRI AMP is time-consuming, but we have seen really great results. For example, students who completed all BARBRI AMP subjects for the summer 2012 course or the winter 2012 course scored an average of 9 points higher on our simulated MBE than those who did not. 9 points on the MBE is very significant. Learning the information in the lecture handout book should be your first priority, but BARBRI AMP will help you do so.

I hope this helps!


What's the average for the simulated pre-bar MBE for barbri?

beardown_tho
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Re: Barbri AMP, WTF

Postby beardown_tho » Thu May 23, 2013 8:46 pm

achambers528 wrote:I'm an attorney with BARBRI and just wanted to clarify the point of BARBRI AMP - it might be a bit confusing.

BARBRI AMP is cutting-edge software, based off of Nobel Prize winning research. It's the only software of its kind, which is why the point of it may be unclear. As opposed to our Study Smart software, the questions are purposfully formatted differently than practice MBE questions - it doesn't test your knowledge, the software actually teaches you the black letter law for MBE topics. As the course progresses, you will want to test what you know about the MBE subjects by using our MPQ/Study Smart questions.

BARBRI AMP is time-consuming, but we have seen really great results. For example, students who completed all BARBRI AMP subjects for the summer 2012 course or the winter 2012 course scored an average of 9 points higher on our simulated MBE than those who did not. 9 points on the MBE is very significant. Learning the information in the lecture handout book should be your first priority, but BARBRI AMP will help you do so.

I hope this helps!


which Nobel Prize winning research?

blong4133
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Re: Barbri AMP, WTF

Postby blong4133 » Mon May 27, 2013 2:23 pm

I've been going through the AMP lessons myself and feel that they are useful for digging up all those rules I learned during my 1L and 2L years that I have since forgotten.

I've been going through them really for no other reason than the fact that I have nothing better to do with my time, so I figured I'd at least do something I feel to be productive.

But I think it's done a good job of helping me remember some old rules. Especially for torts since I haven't taken any torts related courses since first semester of 1L year. It's also helped in a couple of areas where I just don't feel like I really ever understood the rules or at least giving me a little boost for the few topics we never really covered in a given class (i.e. we ran out of time before we got to mortgages in my property class, and I had some issues with grasping all the concepts for 3rd party ben. stuff for contracts...all of which I feel better about now after going through the AMP lessons for those respective areas).

But like I said, I've been using it more as a refresher rather than something to learn. I get a question wrong, read the explanation and remember the rule. I kind of view it as something to help you remember the rules, then the diagnostic MBE and all the practice Q's you'll do will help you re-learn (or learn for that matter) how to apply it.

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Bronte
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Re: Barbri AMP, WTF

Postby Bronte » Mon May 27, 2013 3:19 pm

I am generally sympathetic to the idea that you don't have to go nuts on bar prep. But I've been doing the AMPs for a few days because I've had nothing else to do during the couple weeks before the course starts. I feel like they're working okay as a refresher and passable as a very light-weight teaching device. I do not find that they take 1.5 to 4 hours. They're taking me 20 minutes to 1.5 hours depending on whether I studied the topic in law school. (I assume we are talking about each module, of which there are usually three per day. If we're talking about a whole day's worth of AMPs then yes they take a few hours.)

Obviously you can easily get by not doing these (to say the least), but I don't think they're so bad.

Green Crayons
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Re: Barbri AMP, WTF

Postby Green Crayons » Mon May 27, 2013 4:48 pm

Bronte wrote:They're taking me 20 minutes to 1.5 hours depending on whether I studied the topic in law school. (I assume we are talking about each module, of which there are usually three per day.
This is the case for me as well. My initial AMPs were about a whole bunch of Real Property concepts I never or barely learned in 1L, and they took about 1.5 hours. Since then, I've grown accustomed to not being afraid of the "I don't know yet" button and just reading the "Learn More" tab to engage in a quick memorization session for those questions where I'm so lost that a "pick 2" option would be totally random.

I have no idea if it's helping these topics really stick, but I'm down to 20-30 minutes per AMP session. Which is fine.

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BaiAilian2013
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Re: Barbri AMP, WTF

Postby BaiAilian2013 » Tue May 28, 2013 6:44 pm

So like... what IS the homework for Barbri? Is it just what's listed on the interactive paced program page? So some AMPs, some reading from the mini-review, and then just spend an hour reviewing your class notes? I don't know how I still have a procedural question the way they spoon-feed everything to you, but I guess I thought there would be a lot of homework, so I feel like I'm missing something?

kaiser
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Re: Barbri AMP, WTF

Postby kaiser » Tue May 28, 2013 6:48 pm

I messed around a bit with the Torts AMP since that was part of the pre-class assignment for the first few classes. Refreshed me on some black letter rules I had forgotten, but this is nothing we won't hear in the lecture, when we will get the same black letter material. Sure, its nice to have the lecture sort of reinforcing what is fresh in your mind, but it just doesn't seem all that necessary. I'm also watching the Torts I Early Start Lecture, which marches through all the black letter stuff anyway. Again, this is nothing I couldn't have gotten by just watching the regular lecture and going through the notes afterward (and of course doing some practice Q's).




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