General advice from a 2nd-semester 1L

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: General advice from a 2nd-semester 1L

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:56 pm

texanwahoo wrote:
Richie Tenenbaum wrote:ETA: Also, you should know that a good chunk of people get 1L SAs in Texas. And there isn't much of difference between what you learn during your average judicial internship.


Wow, and you guys are calling *me* a bullshitter? This is a complete crock. Houston BigLaw firms hired a total of about 50 1L SAs last year. That's out of a total of around 2,000 1Ls from Texas law schools alone, never mind all the T14 kids originally from Houston or Texas seeking internships there (not to mention 1Ls not from Texas who want to work in O&G). I wouldn't call that a "big chunk," personally, but to each his own.


? Which part is a complete crock? Even assuming that number you're throwing out is true (source? you relying on NALP?), you need to keep in mind that most all 1L SAs go to T14 and UT people. I knew around 20 people in my class who got 1L biglaw SAs in either Dallas, Houston, or Austin. And I don't know most of the people in my class (~380). My guess would be the overall number is closer to 40. Either way, I would consider that a good chunk and that's the hiring out of UT alone. Also, I would be very surprised if TX firms liked UT more than someone from Harvard or Columbia who has ties. (Thus, someone at a T14 who wants to come back to TX should try to get a 1L SA--these jobs do exist.)



texanwahoo wrote:
Richie Tenenbaum wrote:(And 1L SAs at bigfirms typically result in an offer to return as a 2L, which makes OCI a lot less stressful.)


You're ignoring several facts: 1) It doesn't matter what you do 1L summer as long as it's legally related; 2) anyone qualified enough to get a 1L SA gig will likely have a number of suitors courting them at OCI regardless; and 3) some of us don't let interviews stress us out, even in the face of bullshit questions like "the Brick."


Lol. Let's look at your original argument:

texanwahoo wrote:Yes, we all know how fucking awesome it will look on your resume if you managed to secure one of the exceedingly rare 1L summer clerk jobs in BigLaw, but we also know that 1Ls are de facto copy boys and mail distributors at such firms. Yes, we know the $3K weekly paychecks are alluring, but in the long run, that judicial internship -- please, please tell me you know I mean *federal* internship -- or DA's intern gig will provide vastly more *applicable* training for the remainder of your law school years.


You seem to be saying that a judicial internship or DA internship will teach you more than a 1L SA. I responded back by saying not really and there is another benefit to being a 1L SA: a good chance of having insurance if you strike out with all the OCI firms. I did a judicial internship 1L summer and really enjoyed it, but I would have traded that for having this insurance, regardless of the 3K/wk salary. And I say this as someone who got multiple offers from OCI. It's better to have some insurance when it comes to your legal career, and OCI can be random at times. (I know a few people with good grades who either almost struck out or actually did strike out--and, no, the answer of "well if you're a good interviewer this won't happen" is not good insurance against this randomness. Good interviewers can have bad results as well.)

So telling everyone to value judicial internships or DA internships more than 1L SAs is just dumb for someone who wants biglaw after graduation. Sure, do the DA internship if you actually want to do criminal law after law school, but if you want to do biglaw than a 1L SA is typically better than both. (Maybe there's an argument that splitting between a 1L SA and a judicial internship is more helpful than 2 1L SAs, since it gives you a chance to try and connect with a judge if you're interested in clerkships.)

Meep13
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Re: General advice from a 2nd-semester 1L

Postby Meep13 » Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:45 pm

OMG, YOU'RE BFFs WITH TWO OF YOUR SCHOOL'S DEANS?!?! Wow, nobody cares.

OP, you are a dick. Take your unsolicited advice elsewhere.

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OutCold
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Re: General advice from a 2nd-semester 1L

Postby OutCold » Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:04 pm

Over ten years of real world experience and you still haven't learned how to talk to people. It's no wonder you are returning to school.

Good advice. Pop pills for conditions you don't have, network with career academics, seek useless low paying summer positions instead of useless high paying summer positions, and avoid the meat and potatoes work of the legal profession in order to pursue some niche areas that might expand from 1% of overall legal work to 1.1% of overall legal work (based on speculation no less).

Look, how can you even begin to give advice at this stage? Have you already gotten yourself a fantastic fulltime position lined up? It looks to me like you haven't succeeded at anything yet aside from getting some drugs and chumming it up with some deans. When you go through OCI, get one of these niche jobs you are throwing around, and learn some humility, maybe people will be more apt to take your advice. But odds are it will be just as terrible as your OP.

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RELIC
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Re: General advice from a 2nd-semester 1L

Postby RELIC » Fri Apr 05, 2013 4:11 pm

texanwahoo wrote:
RELIC wrote:And most of this people on this board are 25-30 and have at least a couple years of work experience under their belt.


Ooooooooh, a "couple" of years! That must mean you know everything!

I never claimed to know everything. You did when you said you were in your thirties. But you obviously have the maturity level of a 12 year old.

You have no basis for giving any of the advice you gave out. Why are you telling people what practice area to go into when you haven't even completed one summer at a firm? Much less gotten an offer or actually practiced law.

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3|ink
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Re: General advice from a 2nd-semester 1L

Postby 3|ink » Fri Apr 05, 2013 7:27 pm

OutCold wrote:Over ten years of real world experience and you still haven't learned how to talk to people. It's no wonder you are returning to school.

:lol:

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Tom Joad
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Re: General advice from a 2nd-semester 1L

Postby Tom Joad » Fri Apr 05, 2013 10:44 pm

OP, would you consider yourself a true O&G?

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MauriceGains
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Re: General advice from a 2nd-semester 1L

Postby MauriceGains » Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:52 pm

I agree with #1. #2 probably wise. #3 I tend to disagree with, as I don't think a private SA job or a state level internship with a respected judge is bad, and #4 I think is probably halfway there, though I'd refer to environmental as "natural resources" to be more accurate.

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patrickd139
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Re: General advice from a 2nd-semester 1L

Postby patrickd139 » Sat Apr 06, 2013 12:25 am

Just wanted to pop in and apologize on behalf of Texans, generally. We're not all this fucked up. I promise.

Also:
3|ink wrote:I need some advice and you seem to be the right person to ask. How do I deal with my aspergers?
:lol:

texanwahoo
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Re: General advice from a 2nd-semester 1L

Postby texanwahoo » Sat Apr 06, 2013 12:43 am

Richie Tenenbaum wrote:Which part is a complete crock? Even assuming that number you're throwing out is true (source? you relying on NALP?), you need to keep in mind that most all 1L SAs go to T14 and UT people. I knew around 20 people in my class who got 1L biglaw SAs in either Dallas, Houston, or Austin. And I don't know most of the people in my class (~380). My guess would be the overall number is closer to 40. Either way, I would consider that a good chunk


My source is actual *research*, including NALP stats and others. And I wouldn't call slightly more than 10% a "good chunk"; that's just the LR kids! (And, again, you're ignoring the fact that Texas has eight other full-time law schools besides UT, and two of those are T1 if not T14.)

Richie Tenenbaum wrote:Also, I would be very surprised if TX firms liked UT more than someone from Harvard or Columbia who has ties. (Thus, someone at a T14 who wants to come back to TX should try to get a 1L SA--these jobs do exist.)


Ha! Such ignorance. There's one firm I won't name, except to note that it's one of the top boutique firms in Texas, that hires ONLY from UT and HLS. Forget the rest of the T14. Aside from that, not only do they only hire Chancellors from UT, they only hire the *top* Chancellors! (top three in the class, in other words) They don't even *do* OCI at any other schools. And I do mean literally ALL of their attorneys, both partners and associates, are from one of the two schools.

Richie Tenenbaum wrote:You seem to be saying that a judicial internship or DA internship will teach you more than a 1L SA.


Yep. Unless you luck into the 1-in-10 (if that) 1L SA jobs where you aren't just a glorified runner.

Richie Tenenbaum wrote:I responded back by saying not really and there is another benefit to being a 1L SA: a good chance of having insurance if you strike out with all the OCI firms. I did a judicial internship 1L summer and really enjoyed it, but I would have traded that for having this insurance, regardless of the 3K/wk salary. And I say this as someone who got multiple offers from OCI.


Well, goodie for you, but in the long run having actual *real-world* skills will come in handier than the "insurance" a 1L SA gig provides.

Richie Tenenbaum wrote:So telling everyone to value judicial internships or DA internships more than 1L SAs is just dumb for someone who wants biglaw after graduation. Sure, do the DA internship if you actually want to do criminal law after law school, but if you want to do biglaw than a 1L SA is typically better than both.


For the record, I have zero interest in criminal law after graduation. I just happen to appreciate the value of learning the inner workings of the court system from the inside, plus the DA's office prosecutes civil crimes as well. Btw of the recent law grads I know in BigLaw, not one of them worked for a firm during their 1L summer. One of them got her job specifically because she interned for a Fifth Circuit judge her firm's hiring partner happened to love.

OutCold wrote:Have you already gotten yourself a fantastic fulltime position lined up?


BINGO! Gotta credit some daddy connections on this one, admittedly, but let's just say it's at a firm you'd all know.

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Emma.
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Re: General advice from a 2nd-semester 1L

Postby Emma. » Sat Apr 06, 2013 12:50 am

texanwahoo wrote:
3) BE PRACTICAL. Yes, we all know how fucking awesome it will look on your resume if you managed to secure one of the exceedingly rare 1L summer clerk jobs in BigLaw, but we also know that 1Ls are de facto copy boys and mail distributors at such firms. Yes, we know the $3K weekly paychecks are alluring, but in the long run, that judicial internship -- please, please tell me you know I mean *federal* internship -- or DA's intern gig will provide vastly more *applicable* training for the remainder of your law school years.



No.

1L SAs will do more or less the same work as 2L SAs, get to attend the same social events, and get paid the same. If what you want to do after graduation is biglaw, then a SA gig is FAR more valuable than the other positions you mentioned.

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patrickd139
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Re: General advice from a 2nd-semester 1L

Postby patrickd139 » Sat Apr 06, 2013 12:54 am

texanwahoo wrote:
OutCold wrote:Have you already gotten yourself a fantastic fulltime position lined up?


BINGO! Gotta credit some daddy connections on this one, admittedly, but let's just say it's at a firm you'd all know.

Nailed it. Spoiled silver-spoon asshole whose daddy happens to have enough connections to land him a 1L SA suddenly thinks he's the shit.
Desert Fox wrote:You are an idiot, I hope you strike out.

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: General advice from a 2nd-semester 1L

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:16 am

texanwahoo wrote:
Richie Tenenbaum wrote:Which part is a complete crock? Even assuming that number you're throwing out is true (source? you relying on NALP?), you need to keep in mind that most all 1L SAs go to T14 and UT people. I knew around 20 people in my class who got 1L biglaw SAs in either Dallas, Houston, or Austin. And I don't know most of the people in my class (~380). My guess would be the overall number is closer to 40. Either way, I would consider that a good chunk


My source is actual *research*, including NALP stats and others. And I wouldn't call slightly more than 10% a "good chunk"; that's just the LR kids! (And, again, you're ignoring the fact that Texas has eight other full-time law schools besides UT, and two of those are T1 if not T14.)


*sigh* 1L SAs are usually talked about as if they are magical unicorns, since they can be really rare in other parts of the country. Texas actually has a lot comparatively speaking. I didn't mean to indicate that half or most of students get one. I just meant to indicate that there is an actual significant number of SAs available in Texas. Also, I'm ignoring the other schools in Texas for this topic because they don't typically get their 1Ls hired for SAs. I'm sorry if my initial post gave the impression that everyone has at least somewhat of a chance at a 1L SA. If you go to UT or a T14 and have good grades, then, yes, you are in a decent position.

texanwahoo wrote:
Richie Tenenbaum wrote:Also, I would be very surprised if TX firms liked UT more than someone from Harvard or Columbia who has ties. (Thus, someone at a T14 who wants to come back to TX should try to get a 1L SA--these jobs do exist.)


Ha! Such ignorance. There's one firm I won't name, except to note that it's one of the top boutique firms in Texas, that hires ONLY from UT and HLS. Forget the rest of the T14. Aside from that, not only do they only hire Chancellors from UT, they only hire the *top* Chancellors! (top three in the class, in other words) They don't even *do* OCI at any other schools. And I do mean literally ALL of their attorneys, both partners and associates, are from one of the two schools.


Sorry for not qualifying everything. You are right, some firms do favor UT students. Also, you should check Gibbs & Bruns' website--while they only do OCI at UT and Harvard, they do have an associate from Columbia (I think she was a lateral hire). And they do have a few non-chancellors, but, yes, you are correct that they have a ton of grand/vice chancellors. I'm not sure how my original quote--which was a tangential point that is still generally true, the big three and most of the other big law firms in Texas do go deeper into most T14 classes--shows my ignorance about the Texas legal hiring market. I'm glad I can have a 1L teach me about it. But sorry for the tangent.

texanwahoo wrote:
Richie Tenenbaum wrote:You seem to be saying that a judicial internship or DA internship will teach you more than a 1L SA.


Yep. Unless you luck into the 1-in-10 (if that) 1L SA jobs where you aren't just a glorified runner.


Huh? Are you saying that only 1/10 big law SA jobs aren't glorified runners (which is an odd assertion) or are you saying that non-big law SA jobs mean you are a glorified runner? I don't give a shit about the latter claim--I never once was talking about 1L SAs at non-big law firms. I have been talking about big law 1L SAs this whole time. And I never said that everyone can and should get one. I just said 1) they exist and are possible to get in Texas (though, it seems I have to qualify that you can't go UH/SMU or Texas TTTs and expect to have much of a shot) and 2) you were dumb for claiming that judicial internships are more valuable. 1L SAs, like 2L SAs, do not learn a ton of stuff, but neither do judicial interns.[/quote]

texanwahoo wrote:
Richie Tenenbaum wrote:I responded back by saying not really and there is another benefit to being a 1L SA: a good chance of having insurance if you strike out with all the OCI firms. I did a judicial internship 1L summer and really enjoyed it, but I would have traded that for having this insurance, regardless of the 3K/wk salary. And I say this as someone who got multiple offers from OCI.


Well, goodie for you, but in the long run having actual *real-world* skills will come in handier than the "insurance" a 1L SA gig provides.


lol, dude. The typical 1L SA will teach you as much as the typical judicial internship (not much of anything). The back-up a 1L SA can provide is absolutely huge since if you strike out at OCI, you are in deepshit for trying to get biglaw after that.

texanwahoo wrote:
Richie Tenenbaum wrote:So telling everyone to value judicial internships or DA internships more than 1L SAs is just dumb for someone who wants biglaw after graduation. Sure, do the DA internship if you actually want to do criminal law after law school, but if you want to do biglaw than a 1L SA is typically better than both.


For the record, I have zero interest in criminal law after graduation. I just happen to appreciate the value of learning the inner workings of the court system from the inside, plus the DA's office prosecutes civil crimes as well. Btw of the recent law grads I know in BigLaw, not one of them worked for a firm during their 1L summer. One of them got her job specifically because she interned for a Fifth Circuit judge her firm's hiring partner happened to love.


Anecdotal evidence! Cool stuff! I really do hope you learn a ton at the DA's office. Maybe they teach you more than a typical judicial internship or a 1L biglaw SA, but I'm a big skeptical. Also, please note that I never said there was anything wrong with these internships. I thought it just was dumb to think they're more valuable than a 1L biglaw SA, which is something I still think.

texanwahoo wrote:
OutCold wrote:Have you already gotten yourself a fantastic fulltime position lined up?


BINGO! Gotta credit some daddy connections on this one, admittedly, but let's just say it's at a firm you'd all know.


How have you already gotten a full-time position lined up? I would think your daddy could get you a 2L SA lined up, but it would be a ton of power if your daddy could also guarantee you a full-time offer from that summer. But assuming this indeed has happened, why are you sucking up to the deans at your school when you already have a post law school job lined up as a 1L? Why even try to offer advice to people on networking, when your advice should be "be born with the right dad"?




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