Would dropping the third year of law school be a good idea?

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Would dropping the third year be a good idea?

Yes
38
67%
No
11
19%
I like clicking things
8
14%
 
Total votes: 57

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smaug_
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Would dropping the third year of law school be a good idea?

Postby smaug_ » Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:34 pm

Last edited by smaug_ on Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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justonemoregame
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Re: Would dropping the third year of law school be a good idea?

Postby justonemoregame » Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:38 pm

Didn't get the part about it making it easier for people to go into PI and small firms. Maybe for people on scholarship, but two years at NU and NYU at sticker is >$150,000. Don't PI pple just do PSLF anyway? I guess it's good for taxpayers.

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smaug_
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Re: Would dropping the third year of law school be a good idea?

Postby smaug_ » Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:40 pm

justonemoregame wrote:Didn't get the part about it making it easier for people to go into PI and small firms. Maybe for people on scholarship, but two years at NU and NYU at sticker is >$150,000. Don't PI pple just do PSLF anyway? I guess it's good for taxpayers.


I'm not sure about that either. Maybe it would allow them to do an extended internship instead of a third year or something. Not getting paid isn't great, but it is better than sinking further into debt.

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spicyyoda17
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Re: Would dropping the third year of law school be a good idea?

Postby spicyyoda17 » Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:41 pm

You should add a poll to this.

Although I'm guessing most people would opt for dropping the third year. Would make law school much cheaper.

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ph14
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Re: Would dropping the third year of law school be a good idea?

Postby ph14 » Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:43 pm

Yes. And allow the option for 2L to be satisfied by a year-long internship.

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smaug_
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Re: Would dropping the third year of law school be a good idea?

Postby smaug_ » Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:44 pm

spicyyoda17 wrote:You should add a poll to this.

Although I'm guessing most people would opt for dropping the third year. Would make law school much cheaper.


Added.

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justonemoregame
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Re: Would dropping the third year of law school be a good idea?

Postby justonemoregame » Fri Jan 18, 2013 3:49 pm

"Such prospects are discouraging many young people from pursuing law degrees, and pushing away lower-income students the most".


Is the latter part true? Sounds like something they just made up.

Gorki
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Re: Would dropping the third year of law school be a good idea?

Postby Gorki » Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:32 pm

justonemoregame wrote:"Such prospects are discouraging many young people from pursuing law degrees, and pushing away lower-incomelogical and financially concerned students the most".


Is the latter part true? Sounds like something they just made up.

fixed.

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rinkrat19
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Re: Would dropping the third year of law school be a good idea?

Postby rinkrat19 » Fri Jan 18, 2013 4:39 pm

ph14 wrote:Yes. And allow the option for 2L to be satisfied by a year-long internship.

During this 3rd-year internship, are you making enough to make loan payments?

timbs4339
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Re: Would dropping the third year of law school be a good idea?

Postby timbs4339 » Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:15 pm

3L is useless, but there's still a signaling problem here. The rule would need to be after four semesters, not after a number of credits, so a student who goes to a law school hoping to wind up in biglaw and gets medianpwnd can just take the bar after two years and go right into the hunt for small law jobs. If it's tied to credits, schools are going to be able to get around it somehow, and students will attend "3 year schools" because they assume those schools will lead to better job prospects.

keg411
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Re: Would dropping the third year of law school be a good idea?

Postby keg411 » Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:34 pm

timbs4339 wrote:3L is useless, but there's still a signaling problem here. The rule would need to be after four semesters, not after a number of credits, so a student who goes to a law school hoping to wind up in biglaw and gets medianpwnd can just take the bar after two years and go right into the hunt for small law jobs. If it's tied to credits, schools are going to be able to get around it somehow, and students will attend "3 year schools" because they assume those schools will lead to better job prospects.


I like this rule. I also wouldn't mind some type of internship/externship requirement during 3L, whether or not you decide to take the bar early.

timbs4339
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Re: Would dropping the third year of law school be a good idea?

Postby timbs4339 » Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:38 pm

keg411 wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:3L is useless, but there's still a signaling problem here. The rule would need to be after four semesters, not after a number of credits, so a student who goes to a law school hoping to wind up in biglaw and gets medianpwnd can just take the bar after two years and go right into the hunt for small law jobs. If it's tied to credits, schools are going to be able to get around it somehow, and students will attend "3 year schools" because they assume those schools will lead to better job prospects.


I like this rule. I also wouldn't mind some type of internship/externship requirement during 3L, whether or not you decide to take the bar early.


There would have to be a rule stating a school could only charge x% tuition- like $10%, so students can take out loans to fund their living expenses during that time. There aren't going to be enough internships/externships in NY to absorb even 1/4 of the students in the metro area. Else you just get the NYU system where students pay full freight to travel to Brazil, except these students aren't even getting a tan for their trouble.

keg411
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Re: Would dropping the third year of law school be a good idea?

Postby keg411 » Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:43 pm

timbs4339 wrote:
keg411 wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:3L is useless, but there's still a signaling problem here. The rule would need to be after four semesters, not after a number of credits, so a student who goes to a law school hoping to wind up in biglaw and gets medianpwnd can just take the bar after two years and go right into the hunt for small law jobs. If it's tied to credits, schools are going to be able to get around it somehow, and students will attend "3 year schools" because they assume those schools will lead to better job prospects.


I like this rule. I also wouldn't mind some type of internship/externship requirement during 3L, whether or not you decide to take the bar early.


There would have to be a rule stating a school could only charge x% tuition- like $10%, so students can take out loans to fund their living expenses during that time. There aren't going to be enough internships/externships in NY to absorb even 1/4 of the students in the metro area. Else you just get the NYU system where students pay full freight to travel to Brazil, except these students aren't even getting a tan for their trouble.


That's the point. If schools can't find people the legal work, then they shouldn't be open. You would probably have to include any type of paying job as well (i.e. firms)... but it would have to be some type of "hands-on legal practice" requirement outside of the school. Purpose? Make sure that SPS schools in oversaturated markets either close or will no longer be accredited.

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prezidentv8
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Re: Would dropping the third year of law school be a good idea?

Postby prezidentv8 » Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:44 pm

hibiki wrote:Would dropping the third year of law school be a good idea?


Yes.

timbs4339
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Re: Would dropping the third year of law school be a good idea?

Postby timbs4339 » Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:49 pm

keg411 wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:
keg411 wrote:
timbs4339 wrote:3L is useless, but there's still a signaling problem here. The rule would need to be after four semesters, not after a number of credits, so a student who goes to a law school hoping to wind up in biglaw and gets medianpwnd can just take the bar after two years and go right into the hunt for small law jobs. If it's tied to credits, schools are going to be able to get around it somehow, and students will attend "3 year schools" because they assume those schools will lead to better job prospects.


I like this rule. I also wouldn't mind some type of internship/externship requirement during 3L, whether or not you decide to take the bar early.


There would have to be a rule stating a school could only charge x% tuition- like $10%, so students can take out loans to fund their living expenses during that time. There aren't going to be enough internships/externships in NY to absorb even 1/4 of the students in the metro area. Else you just get the NYU system where students pay full freight to travel to Brazil, except these students aren't even getting a tan for their trouble.


That's the point. If schools can't find people the legal work, then they shouldn't be open. You would probably have to include any type of paying job as well (i.e. firms)... but it would have to be some type of "hands-on legal practice" requirement outside of the school. Purpose? Make sure that SPS schools in oversaturated markets either close or will no longer be accredited.


I'm not sure I want the responsibility of providing the internships/externships to be in the hands of the law schools. Remember this is the NY COA- they don't have accreditation power over the law schools. All they can do is change the requirement for bar passage in a way that properly incentivizes students to leave law school after two years, thereby cutting out one year of tuition. Anything that forces them back to the law schools is just an excuse for the schools to raise tuition.

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Kronk
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Re: Would dropping the third year of law school be a good idea?

Postby Kronk » Fri Jan 18, 2013 5:51 pm

I think it'd be pretty tough to get the type of connections and internship experience needed to be a good lawyer in just one summer.

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cinephile
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Re: Would dropping the third year of law school be a good idea?

Postby cinephile » Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:34 pm

Drop 2L too.

The whole thing is pretty stupid, really. Just let people take the bar without going law school and raise the standards for the bar. And then actually give people their score on the exam and elite firms can use that score to distinguish among applicants.

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prezidentv8
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Re: Would dropping the third year of law school be a good idea?

Postby prezidentv8 » Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:43 pm

cinephile wrote:Drop 2L too.

The whole thing is pretty stupid, really. Just let people take the bar without going law school and raise the standards for the bar. And then actually give people their score on the exam and elite firms can use that score to distinguish among applicants.


Realistically, I think law should just be an undergrad major and anyone should be able to take the bar with or without it. Maybe require an apprenticeship of like 6 months to a year or something too.

Law as a 3-4 year graduate degree is stupid.

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Sheffield
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Re: Would dropping the third year of law school be a good idea?

Postby Sheffield » Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:44 pm

I read a suggestion somewhere about making the third year optional. Great idea. If that option would have been offered here, I would have picked it. IMHO: Third year might be necessary for some and a waste for others. Let everyone choose for themselves. One could make the case for 2L too. . .but figure that idea has zero chance.

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cinephile
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Re: Would dropping the third year of law school be a good idea?

Postby cinephile » Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:50 pm

Sheffield wrote:I read a suggestion somewhere about making the third year optional. Great idea. If that option would have been offered here, I would have picked it. IMHO: Third year might be necessary for some and a waste for others. Let everyone choose for themselves. One could make the case for 2L too. . .but figure that idea has zero chance.


Technically, some schools (including mine) let you do this. But you still have to pay full tuition while you're a full time extern without pay. Given the choice between paying to slack off in class or paying to work, I guess I'd just skip class and chill during 3L.

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Blessedassurance
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Re: Would dropping the third year of law school be a good idea?

Postby Blessedassurance » Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:51 pm

frankly, it takes about 1 semester of competent instruction to figure out all that law school is going to teach you...

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UVAIce
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Re: Would dropping the third year of law school be a good idea?

Postby UVAIce » Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:52 pm

Blessedassurance wrote:frankly, it takes about 1 semester of competent instruction to figure out all that law school is going to teach you...


Credited

LSTfan
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Re: Would dropping the third year of law school be a good idea?

Postby LSTfan » Fri Jan 18, 2013 6:56 pm

.
Last edited by LSTfan on Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Kronk
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Re: Would dropping the third year of law school be a good idea?

Postby Kronk » Fri Jan 18, 2013 7:00 pm

I kind of agree that you only need to learn how to read cases in a couple doctrinal classes and a LRW / WOA class to really be able to practice law to some extent. But it gives you time to do externships, explore areas of the law, etc. I learn more from my externships than I do from LS probably, but I don't know what I would do if I just had one year in the summer. What if you hate your job that summer? No chance to try out anything else, no connections to any other area of the law, you get out of school you have 80k-160k in loans or whatever, have to start repaying that in 6 months, have no legal jobs to put on your resume because you only had one internship.

In theory I think it's a good idea. But I think in practice it would be a bit of a bitch and would lead to a lot of people not knowing what the fuck they want to do with their lives.

LSTfan
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Re: Would dropping the third year of law school be a good idea?

Postby LSTfan » Fri Jan 18, 2013 7:27 pm

.
Last edited by LSTfan on Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.




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