Should I drop out?

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timbs4339
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Re: Should I drop out?

Postby timbs4339 » Mon Jan 14, 2013 3:04 pm

Unemployment, temp employment, or working a crappy job that doesn't impress your extended family and parents' friends may last 6 months, a year, or a year and a half. That debt is for the next 20 years. I'd drop out.

thelawdoctor
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Re: Should I drop out?

Postby thelawdoctor » Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:01 pm

less than 1% of Americans become lawyers, less than 3% even finish any real type of graduate training.

Hell, only a third even finish a BA.

Quiter mentality and a fear of debt, even at the loss of future income, is a big reason for that.

Gorki
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Re: Should I drop out?

Postby Gorki » Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:09 pm

thelawdoctor wrote:less than 1% of Americans become lawyers, less than 3% even finish any real type of graduate training.

Hell, only a third even finish a BA.

Quiter mentality and a fear of debt, even at the loss of future income, is a big reason for that.


Is this a shtick?


Of those 1% that become lawyers (as you claim) I want honest statistics on how many "gain future income" with that degree. You are pulling some High School guidance counselor bullshit and pulling statistics from the entirety of America when the true question is much more specific. How beneficial is it to stop at a Bachelor's degree with tons of debt versus a Law degree with even more insane debt? Legal hiring is way down, and good luck getting a small business loan with a debt level higher than some mortgages. Good luck getting a mortgage for that matter.

The better question is how many of those 99% are better off not taking the risk of entering one of the most oversaturated and growingly automated/outsourced professions in America. What Boomer law grads did after graduation has been, for the most part, automated by the firm or company's IT department to have minimal human touchpoints.

Stop filling OP's head with nonsense. Sure if they love law school they should stay, but only if they love law school. There is absolutely no light at the end of the LS tunnel for someone with low odds at getting a job unless they are very very motivated to find one (OP seems to be less than confident).

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cinephile
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Re: Should I drop out?

Postby cinephile » Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:11 pm

thelawdoctor wrote:less than 1% of Americans become lawyers, less than 3% even finish any real type of graduate training.

Hell, only a third even finish a BA.

Quiter mentality and a fear of debt, even at the loss of future income, is a big reason for that.


Quitting is a good thing, man. People ought to quit smoking, eating high fat/high carb/high sodium foods, shooting up in public alleys, and law school. If an activity that you're engaged in is harmful to your physical, emotional, or financial health then quitting is the right choice. Quitter mentality - making America healthier.

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h_jane_w
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Re: Should I drop out?

Postby h_jane_w » Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:18 pm

thelawdoctor wrote:less than 1% of Americans become lawyers, less than 3% even finish any real type of graduate training.

Hell, only a third even finish a BA.

Quiter mentality and a fear of debt, even at the loss of future income, is a big reason for that.


A "fear of debt" are you joking? Why do you think America's housing crisis occurred? Because Americans decided they were fine buying big expensive houses they could NOT afford and taking mortage over mortgage. Cars, houses, shit, even purses and clothing. Americans spend too much money on stuff they cannot afford. They max out the credit cards, and are swallowed up by interest rates.

OP - NYC is an incredibly, incredibly, competitive market. NYC is home to the brightest, smartest, most driven and talkative and ambitious people of America.

My advice to you is - do NOT attend dozo at sticker. But you did, now that's done, get out as fast as you can, do not give them one more dollar and try to get back any money you can from them. I understand it's scary to not have a plan B, but it seems much more scary to me to owe 200k and have no way of paying it back.

thelawdoctor
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Re: Should I drop out?

Postby thelawdoctor » Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:52 pm

h_jane_w wrote:
thelawdoctor wrote:less than 1% of Americans become lawyers, less than 3% even finish any real type of graduate training.

Hell, only a third even finish a BA.

Quiter mentality and a fear of debt, even at the loss of future income, is a big reason for that.


A "fear of debt" are you joking? Why do you think America's housing crisis occurred? Because Americans decided they were fine buying big expensive houses they could NOT afford and taking mortage over mortgage. Cars, houses, shit, even purses and clothing. Americans spend too much money on stuff they cannot afford. They max out the credit cards, and are swallowed up by interest rates.

OP - NYC is an incredibly, incredibly, competitive market. NYC is home to the brightest, smartest, most driven and talkative and ambitious people of America.

My advice to you is - do NOT attend dozo at sticker. But you did, now that's done, get out as fast as you can, do not give them one more dollar and try to get back any money you can from them. I understand it's scary to not have a plan B, but it seems much more scary to me to owe 200k and have no way of paying it back.


That is a tired analogy. People say it but don't fully think it out.

A house can not increase your amount of income, a degree can.

You can't have your degree go down in value just because others failed to pay on theirs (the reason why the housing bubble burst)

Not the same stuff. Good points about being being in debt in general though. More reason not to aim for the average persons job. Think there are too many lawyers? Try being a factory worker for a while and see how much better off that is.

Gorki
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Re: Should I drop out?

Postby Gorki » Mon Jan 14, 2013 4:55 pm

thelawdoctor wrote:Not the same stuff. Good points about being being in debt in general though. More reason not to aim for the average persons job. Think there are too many lawyers? Try being a factory worker for a while and see how much better off that is.


News item: 20-something working in factory w/most likely 2 year degree tops can pay loans effectively while working at Walmart and is otherwise free to move all over country. 20-something unemployed law grad is basically anchored in whatever state they take the bar exam in unless they take it in a state with reciprocity and can afford the waive-ins while paying 1.7k a month back in student loans, while working at Walmart in the meantime.


PS: You can live in a house, but a useless 'professional degree' with no job does not provide much warmth while squatting under the local bridge. This is not a joke. Law grads, especially from lower ranked schools, can in fact become homeless!!! If only they did not have any contact with humanity resolve with debt collectors calling, they might feel a little better about themselves than the 50 year old, debt-free hobo in the next cardboard box over.

thelawdoctor
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Re: Should I drop out?

Postby thelawdoctor » Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:01 pm

Gorki wrote:
thelawdoctor wrote:Not the same stuff. Good points about being being in debt in general though. More reason not to aim for the average persons job. Think there are too many lawyers? Try being a factory worker for a while and see how much better off that is.


News item: 20-something working in factory w/most likely 2 year degree tops can pay loans effectively while working at Walmart and is otherwise free to move all over country. 20-something unemployed law grad is basically anchored in whatever state they take the bar exam in unless they take it in a state with reciprocity and can afford the waive-ins while paying 1.7k a month back in student loans, while working at Walmart in the meantime.


I am talking long term, all of lifes debts (housing,cars,etc) and the standard of life that follows.

And the theory of low paying job with full loan payments is a non-issue. As horrible of an idea as it may be for some to consider, IBR does exist if you have to work at a low wage while working your way up the legal food chain.


I don't care if you graduate bottom of your class at an online law school.
If you do any type of legal work at all, and stay on it, you will be better off by the end of your career than you would have been at any job that you could do with undergrad alone.

thelawdoctor
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Re: Should I drop out?

Postby thelawdoctor » Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:02 pm

There are places to start other than just big law.

Gorki
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Re: Should I drop out?

Postby Gorki » Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:04 pm

Okay, you are a flame. Got it. Online phoney LS degree that will not meet ABA standards or allow you to sit for Bar in many states >>>> Financial Analysis BS. lolol.

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Trex
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Re: Should I drop out?

Postby Trex » Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:17 pm

I thought that law is my calling because I have worked and interned at a mediumish firm for several years. I enjoyed the environment and subject matter.

In college, I was an avid class particpant and established relationships with several professors. It was probably the confidence of my gpa that had me going. In law school, I have been nothing like that. No idea... I am not the most outgoing but surely not shy.

Legal writing is the only class I did well in and coincidently intetacted with my professor the most.

thelawdoctor
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Re: Should I drop out?

Postby thelawdoctor » Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:19 pm

Gorki wrote:Okay, you are a flame. Got it. Online phoney LS degree that will not meet ABA standards or allow you to sit for Bar in many states >>>> Financial Analysis BS. lolol.


Used as an extreme example, and CA would be where they would have to be, no shit.

thelawdoctor
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Re: Should I drop out?

Postby thelawdoctor » Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:20 pm

Trex wrote:I thought that law is my calling because I have worked and interned at a mediumish firm for several years. I enjoyed the environment and subject matter.

In college, I was an avid class particpant and established relationships with several professors. It was probably the confidence of my gpa that had me going. In law school, I have been nothing like that. No idea... I am not the most outgoing but surely not shy.

Legal writing is the only class I did well in and coincidently intetacted with my professor the most.

Interesting. Many find that the harder of the classes.
If you get your GPA up a bit, you may enjoy law review.
take as many easy electives as you can to try to help with that if you would be interested.
having law review on a resume is always a good boost, especially if you can get a few published articles.

timbs4339
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Re: Should I drop out?

Postby timbs4339 » Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:24 pm

thelawdoctor wrote:
Trex wrote:I thought that law is my calling because I have worked and interned at a mediumish firm for several years. I enjoyed the environment and subject matter.

In college, I was an avid class particpant and established relationships with several professors. It was probably the confidence of my gpa that had me going. In law school, I have been nothing like that. No idea... I am not the most outgoing but surely not shy.

Legal writing is the only class I did well in and coincidently intetacted with my professor the most.

Interesting. Many find that the harder of the classes.
If you get your GPA up a bit, you may enjoy law review.
take as many easy electives as you can to try to help with that if you would be interested.
having law review on a resume is always a good boost, especially if you can get a few published articles.


You have to be more subtle if you want to continue this schtick.

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suralin
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Re: Should I drop out?

Postby suralin » Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:36 pm

timbs4339 wrote:
thelawdoctor wrote:
Trex wrote:I thought that law is my calling because I have worked and interned at a mediumish firm for several years. I enjoyed the environment and subject matter.

In college, I was an avid class particpant and established relationships with several professors. It was probably the confidence of my gpa that had me going. In law school, I have been nothing like that. No idea... I am not the most outgoing but surely not shy.

Legal writing is the only class I did well in and coincidently intetacted with my professor the most.

Interesting. Many find that the harder of the classes.
If you get your GPA up a bit, you may enjoy law review.
take as many easy electives as you can to try to help with that if you would be interested.
having law review on a resume is always a good boost, especially if you can get a few published articles.


You have to be more subtle if you want to continue this schtick.


+1. thelawdoctor, you are the worst sort of person, AKA a shitboomer.

Gorki
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Re: Should I drop out?

Postby Gorki » Mon Jan 14, 2013 5:50 pm

thelawdoctor wrote:
Trex wrote:I thought that law is my calling because I have worked and interned at a mediumish firm for several years. I enjoyed the environment and subject matter.

In college, I was an avid class particpant and established relationships with several professors. It was probably the confidence of my gpa that had me going. In law school, I have been nothing like that. No idea... I am not the most outgoing but surely not shy.

Legal writing is the only class I did well in and coincidently intetacted with my professor the most.

Interesting. Many find that the harder of the classes.
If you get your GPA up a bit, you may enjoy law review.
take as many easy electives as you can to try to help with that if you would be interested.
having law review on a resume is always a good boost, especially if you can get a few published articles.


LR claim is patently false, unless your at a Top 6 school. Publications do matter if you are going for clerkship or academia. Otherwise LR is not a boost but a necessity to get interviews, especially with OPs GPA. Furthermore, your advice is on par with saying, "Its easy just get a loan and start a business and then make a trillion dollars." LR write-on contests are almost as unpredictable as LS grades. There is no way to ensure you get picked. Publication, in my experience, is all poltical/social. Sure its "blind jury" but when the Board knows the topics of their buddies in 2L it is no surprise when those papers get picked.

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Trex
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Re: Should I drop out?

Postby Trex » Mon Jan 14, 2013 8:35 pm

Gorki wrote:
thelawdoctor wrote:
Trex wrote:I thought that law is my calling because I have worked and interned at a mediumish firm for several years. I enjoyed the environment and subject matter.

In college, I was an avid class particpant and established relationships with several professors. It was probably the confidence of my gpa that had me going. In law school, I have been nothing like that. No idea... I am not the most outgoing but surely not shy.

Legal writing is the only class I did well in and coincidently intetacted with my professor the most.

Interesting. Many find that the harder of the classes.
If you get your GPA up a bit, you may enjoy law review.
take as many easy electives as you can to try to help with that if you would be interested.
having law review on a resume is always a good boost, especially if you can get a few published articles.


LR claim is patently false, unless your at a Top 6 school. Publications do matter if you are going for clerkship or academia. Otherwise LR is not a boost but a necessity to get interviews, especially with OPs GPA. Furthermore, your advice is on par with saying, "Its easy just get a loan and start a business and then make a trillion dollars." LR write-on contests are almost as unpredictable as LS grades. There is no way to ensure you get picked. Publication, in my experience, is all poltical/social. Sure its "blind jury" but when the Board knows the topics of their buddies in 2L it is no surprise when those papers get picked.


I believe that. I am not counting on that.

thelawdoctor
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Re: Should I drop out?

Postby thelawdoctor » Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:57 am

timbs4339 wrote:
thelawdoctor wrote:
Trex wrote:I thought that law is my calling because I have worked and interned at a mediumish firm for several years. I enjoyed the environment and subject matter.

In college, I was an avid class particpant and established relationships with several professors. It was probably the confidence of my gpa that had me going. In law school, I have been nothing like that. No idea... I am not the most outgoing but surely not shy.

Legal writing is the only class I did well in and coincidently intetacted with my professor the most.

Interesting. Many find that the harder of the classes.
If you get your GPA up a bit, you may enjoy law review.
take as many easy electives as you can to try to help with that if you would be interested.
having law review on a resume is always a good boost, especially if you can get a few published articles.


You have to be more subtle if you want to continue this schtick.

You don't know people who thought legal research and writing was hard? I know people who won't shut up about it two years later.


Or that you don't think LR can help? Why? That and moot court are always resume boosters.

thelawdoctor
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Re: Should I drop out?

Postby thelawdoctor » Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:21 am

So OP, you decide to stay or quit?

If you want to quit you need to do so ASAP to get any tuition refunds for the term.

I hope you chose to stick it out, but what was your choice?

stargazin
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Re: Should I drop out?

Postby stargazin » Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:22 pm

Trex wrote:
ajax adonis wrote:Drop out. You have a pretty good GPA and even if you're still trying to find yourself after you drop out, at least you're not incurring debt while doing so. You're an adult. Tell your parents that law school is not something that you just "stick out and it will get better." If that means you have may have to move home, tell them you'll work menial jobs to pull your weight until you find gainful employment. I don't want to go into broader life advice, but just be an adult and tell them this is your life.


My parents are supportive of what I do either way as long as I am not an indefinite bum. I just don't know what alternate career avenues to pursue.


Just throwing these out there, nursing could be an option (depending on your undergrad coursework, you could do an accelerated program and get that done within two years). A master of accounting degree is another option. You could get that done in around a year and get your CPA. Or you could go back and get an engineering degree. There are lots of possibilities out there.

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rouser
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Re: Should I drop out?

Postby rouser » Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:10 pm

seems like it might make more sense to transfer to a cheaper NY school if you decide you aren't dropping out.

thelawdoctor
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Re: Should I drop out?

Postby thelawdoctor » Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:06 pm

If in a part time program it is probably already in a TTT school.




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