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The choice isnt simply law school vs. retail or whatever you can get now. You could always find a job(least shitty one possible obviously) and go back to school for something else. Better than being unemployed 3 years older with six figure debt and having to work retail/go back for something else.

There are 2 types of people who should be in law school:
1) People who have the qualifications to get biglaw/midlaw/OCI job
2)People who have a deep burning desire to do something specific outside of category 1 and have a realistic way of getting there.

Whether you decide to drop or otherwise:

Don't immediately buy the "lol! history degree is so useless" attitude that appears to be floating around, either. Plenty of larger companies hire people with BAs to work entry level positions for pretty decent pay. They need people in clerical positions that have at *least* slightly more skill than those with only high school diplomas. If you happen to live near a local headquarters of a large company such as Geico, Verizon, Sysco, etc, I would certainly investigate any potential job openings before immediately deciding that retail/other continuing education are your only options.

Thanks for all the replies. I'm waiting on these last two grades to see precisely how bad the situation is, and I have meetings scheduled with all of the relevant faculty and staff.

In the meantime, I'm figuring out how to break this to mom and dad. They spent so much time bragging about their son, the law student, that they're going to be crushed. When I gave my mom the news, though, and told her I was thinking of quitting, she said I'd be fine and I'd have a job when I got done. She really doesn't understand the nature of this field (apparently my grasp is only slightly better).

My high school runs a program for former students who want to go back and teach at Jesuit high schools, no teaching certifications required. Contemplating that, and I'm also going to give some of Domii's suggestions a shot. Otherwise, as everyone knows, I wanted a philosophy PhD but lack the necessary academic background. I've been reading up on terminal M.A. programs on Brian Leiter's site, and depending on cost, they might not be a bad option. Even if I quit, I'll be stuck here for another year and a half while my girlfriend finishes her M.A., and UW-Milwaukee has a decently strong terminal M.A. Maybe I can land a job and pursue that M.A. with the hopes that it leads to a PhD. The debt isn't nearly as suicide-inducing as law school debt. Plus I'd be able to work, so it wouldn't all be debt-financed.

So a few options I guess. Better than being stuck at the bottom of my class while racking up tons of debt.

gobuffs10 wrote:Thanks for all the replies. I'm waiting on these last two grades to see precisely how bad the situation is, and I have meetings scheduled with all of the relevant faculty and staff.

In the meantime, I'm figuring out how to break this to mom and dad. They spent so much time bragging about their son, the law student, that they're going to be crushed. When I gave my mom the news, though, and told her I was thinking of quitting, she said I'd be fine and I'd have a job when I got done. She really doesn't understand the nature of this field (apparently my grasp is only slightly better).

My high school runs a program for former students who want to go back and teach at Jesuit high schools, no teaching certifications required. Contemplating that, and I'm also going to give some of Domii's suggestions a shot. Otherwise, as everyone knows, I wanted a philosophy PhD but lack the necessary academic background. I've been reading up on terminal M.A. programs on Brian Leiter's site, and depending on cost, they might not be a bad option. Even if I quit, I'll be stuck here for another year and a half while my girlfriend finishes her M.A., and UW-Milwaukee has a decently strong terminal M.A. Maybe I can land a job and pursue that M.A. with the hopes that it leads to a PhD. The debt isn't nearly as suicide-inducing as law school debt. Plus I'd be able to work, so it wouldn't all be debt-financed.

So a few options I guess. Better than being stuck at the bottom of my class while racking up tons of debt.

I've seen your posts from around November until now and here is what I have concluded/my thoughts. 1. You did not seem to study hard for your first semester finals and hence got poor grades 2. You attend a school that is no way in hell worth what you are paying 3. The reason you went to UW was to follow your girlfriend (BIG mistake). My advice? Dropout AND see if you can reapply to a school and get scholarship money.

I hate kids who go to TT/TTT/TTTT schools and hate the positions they put themselves in due to a lack of due diligence. However, I also hate to see kids quit/give up on a dream that they have.

AntiNerd wrote:

gobuffs10 wrote:Thanks for all the replies. I'm waiting on these last two grades to see precisely how bad the situation is, and I have meetings scheduled with all of the relevant faculty and staff.

In the meantime, I'm figuring out how to break this to mom and dad. They spent so much time bragging about their son, the law student, that they're going to be crushed. When I gave my mom the news, though, and told her I was thinking of quitting, she said I'd be fine and I'd have a job when I got done. She really doesn't understand the nature of this field (apparently my grasp is only slightly better).

My high school runs a program for former students who want to go back and teach at Jesuit high schools, no teaching certifications required. Contemplating that, and I'm also going to give some of Domii's suggestions a shot. Otherwise, as everyone knows, I wanted a philosophy PhD but lack the necessary academic background. I've been reading up on terminal M.A. programs on Brian Leiter's site, and depending on cost, they might not be a bad option. Even if I quit, I'll be stuck here for another year and a half while my girlfriend finishes her M.A., and UW-Milwaukee has a decently strong terminal M.A. Maybe I can land a job and pursue that M.A. with the hopes that it leads to a PhD. The debt isn't nearly as suicide-inducing as law school debt. Plus I'd be able to work, so it wouldn't all be debt-financed.

So a few options I guess. Better than being stuck at the bottom of my class while racking up tons of debt.

I've seen your posts from around November until now and here is what I have concluded/my thoughts. 1. You did not seem to study hard for your first semester finals and hence got poor grades 2. You attend a school that is no way in hell worth what you are paying 3. The reason you went to UW was to follow your girlfriend (BIG mistake). My advice? Dropout AND see if you can reapply to a school and get scholarship money.

I hate kids who go to TT/TTT/TTTT schools and hate the positions they put themselves in due to a lack of due diligence. However, I also hate to see kids quit/give up on a dream that they have.

1 and 2 are correct. 3 is incorrect. I chose UW and she happened to get in, and now she loves her program. I couldn't ask her to leave.

I did my due diligence by hanging out on this site, reading all the articles about what a terrible decision law school is, lurking, etc. However, when all was said and done, I made a very bad decision to attend the school I'm at. I made a very bad decision to not retake after a 163 because it meant sitting yet another year. Basically, I consciously chose to ignore reality; truly, Special Snowflake Syndrome defined.

As far as your suggestion to drop out and see if I can get in somewhere else with a scholarship: I've been thinking about it. I don't know what the rules are, how other schools would view such an action, etc. I only had one scholarship offer, at a TTTT. I do have one LSAT retake left. Law, teaching, or something in academia are really the only things I can think of that would realistically provide some sense of career satisfaction.

I appreciate that you hate to see kids give up on their dreams. I hate that I even have to think about giving up. I'll be the first to admit that I did this to myself.

What do you mean by career satisfaction? I know many lawyers who are total alcoholics 2-3 years in, many teachers who went sparkly-eyed and motivated to thinking this year's class is a bunch of worthless brats. Until you really work somewhere its dangerous to just assume something will give you 'satisfaction.' Everything gets boring after a while. Keep your options open and do not just pigeonhole yourself in cause your a (justifiably) afraid to try something new at this point in your life.

Dropping out and retaking the LSAT to go back to law school is a horrible idea. You've learned one thing - you aren't that good at law school exams. Given this legal market, whatever school you might get into (even if that is possible), you are going to probably perform just as badly. If you can't do better than what you did at UW, you aren't going to be getting good jobs from any law school you can get into.

That being said, switching to taking out debt for a philosophy grad degree is an even worse idea then continuing at UW. At least with below median from UW you can get some kind of shit-law job. With a MA in Philo, you can get the exact same jobs you could get when you were 16.

You want to work in law, academia, or teach. The sad truth is, you've apparently shown no aptitude for either. Stop spending money on your special snowflake dreams and figure out what it is you actually don't suck at. (And teaching in Wisconsin is not a credited approach. At least not unless you are teaching something like econ, math, or special ed.)

Fwiw, you might want to look around the internet for some telecommuting or freelance jobs that are vaguely education related, which could then potentially give you experience that might make you more attractive as an entry level teacher. For example, you could make 15-20 per hour having Skype conversations with Korean kids to help them learn English, editing college admissions essays for some small company, etc.

I got started writing math textbooks through an ad on Craigslist. I worked for a tiny company that had contracts for 2 or 3 charter schools, it was pretty small time, but that experience helped me get a job writing test prep for a major company, which then led to teaching at a community college as well as tutoring at a small private school.

This may have been easier for me since I was a math major from prestigious ug, but there is a lot of small fry stuff out there that might be able to give you the experience to move up to something a little better.

Randomnumbers wrote:Dropping out and retaking the LSAT to go back to law school is a horrible idea. You've learned one thing - you aren't that good at law school exams. Given this legal market, whatever school you might get into (even if that is possible), you are going to probably perform just as badly. If you can't do better than what you did at UW, you aren't going to be getting good jobs from any law school you can get into.

That being said, switching to taking out debt for a philosophy grad degree is an even worse idea then continuing at UW. At least with below median from UW you can get some kind of shit-law job. With a MA in Philo, you can get the exact same jobs you could get when you were 16.

You want to work in law, academia, or teach. The sad truth is, you've apparently shown no aptitude for either. Stop spending money on your special snowflake dreams and figure out what it is you actually don't suck at. (And teaching in Wisconsin is not a credited approach. At least not unless you are teaching something like econ, math, or special ed.)

And I can't teach why?

Look, you need to drop out of law school...... NOW.

After that, you really need to bite the bullet, find a very cheap but good school to go to, and redo undergrad, in a subject that is employable (engineering, math, accounting, finance, etc.).

Yeah, its going to really suck being in undergrad again, but guess what? Most of life sucks. You just have to take it.

An MA isn't going to do shit, especially in the "Humane" subjects.

As for why you cannot teach, simple.

Teachers are being laid off everywhere these days, there are tons of experienced applicants to choose from, and the only subjects really being hired now are in the hard sciences, like math, physics, etc. So philosophy and whatever liberal arts stuff just won't cut it.

dissonance1848 wrote:Look, you need to drop out of law school...... NOW.

After that, you really need to bite the bullet, find a very cheap but good school to go to, and redo undergrad, in a subject that is employable (engineering, math, accounting, finance, etc.).

Yeah, its going to really suck being in undergrad again, but guess what? Most of life sucks. You just have to take it.

An MA isn't going to do shit, especially in the "Humane" subjects.

As for why you cannot teach, simple.

Teachers are being laid off everywhere these days, there are tons of experienced applicants to choose from, and the only subjects really being hired now are in the hard sciences, like math, physics, etc. So philosophy and whatever liberal arts stuff just won't cut it.

Alright then, I guess teaching is out now too. I at least appreciate your advice as opposed to telling me what a fucking idiot I am. If I've already got a degree, could I just enroll somewhere and take the required courses for another major? In other words, will my gen ed stuff still be good?

Random, I get your point. What I don't see is how a bad semester of exams means I suck at all of the other things I'm interested in. You have no basis for saying that poor exam performance means I have no aptitude for teaching. You also have no basis for saying that exam performance means I can't work in higher education. You have no idea how I did in undergrad philosophy coursework. Finally, I have several close friends who have transitioned from partially funded MA programs in philosophy to fully funded PhD tracks. People do it, so it's not like it's some special snowflake thing.

I'm 25 and have yet to figure out what I'm good at, apparently. From the looks of it, I'm not good at much. Still, I have to take issue with your assertion that bad exams = no aptitude for law, teaching, or philosophy.

Dissonance is an asshole.

Your big law prospects may be compromised.. And there may be other limitations but to say that one should drop out NOW... go fuck yourself.

However you decide to move on your career... I would not look to a goddamn message board for that life changing advice. Especially it comes in the form of the foaming male bovine excrement dissonance just put up

even if you do drop out, I wouldn't draw conclusions about what you should do after this semester based on TLS. try to talk to the school first and ask them to help you out (but keep in mind that they likely will want to try to talk you into staying).

Just wanted to repeat: take a break from grad school and look at jobs that require no additional education. After a few years of work experience, then hope you've found your passion and can pick the right graduate program. But don't rush into anything just yet.

Black Face Law - I am an asshole? Perhaps my advice is harsh, but how does that make me an asshole. Seriously, I am trying to give some options that make sense. If I sound imperious,it is because his financial situation is not good here, and he needs to turn it around.

Look, if he can find something he loves doing that works out and pays the bills, great.

But guess what? Reality does not bend to our whims. Rather, we accomodate it.

gobuffs10 wrote:

Suralin wrote:

gobuffs10 wrote:

Suralin wrote:Opportunity costs? You mentioned retail, but is that the best job you can reasonably get? I.e., what's your undergrad degree in and do you have any marketable skills? If you'd be doing retail instead, then that makes law school look not so bad.

ETA: Nevermind to the skills part, you already answered that.

Undergrad was in history, minored in philosophy. Yeah, retail is the best I can reasonably do.

Man, your story is like the motivation behind me changing my major from philosophy to computer science. To be honest, both of your choices kinda suck. Not sure which sucks less.

As for alternative career paths, check out that thread (titled essentially as such). Consider being a teacher maybe? Or teach English overseas?

Yeah, teaching was my original choice, until I was dissuaded by my undergrad teaching department. Nobody needs social studies teachers, they said.

This is great. It's 25 years of horrible choices coming to a head. Hahaha

That's true. It is not easy finding a job as a history teacher.

http://theeducatorsroom.com/2012/10/a-s ... ithout-us/

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_there_a_hi ... y_teachers

I agree with dissonance that my situation isn't great, and I took no issue with his post. All of these contributions, minus the end of Random's, have helped. I'm probably going to work out a leave of absence while I figure this shit out. Look for work, for now.

This thread is devolving into little more than insults. Any way we can get a lock on it?

gobuffs10 wrote:Thanks for all the replies. I'm waiting on these last two grades to see precisely how bad the situation is, and I have meetings scheduled with all of the relevant faculty and staff.

In the meantime, I'm figuring out how to break this to mom and dad. They spent so much time bragging about their son, the law student, that they're going to be crushed. When I gave my mom the news, though, and told her I was thinking of quitting, she said I'd be fine and I'd have a job when I got done. She really doesn't understand the nature of this field (apparently my grasp is only slightly better).

My high school runs a program for former students who want to go back and teach at Jesuit high schools, no teaching certifications required. Contemplating that, and I'm also going to give some of Domii's suggestions a shot. Otherwise, as everyone knows, I wanted a philosophy PhD but lack the necessary academic background. I've been reading up on terminal M.A. programs on Brian Leiter's site, and depending on cost, they might not be a bad option. Even if I quit, I'll be stuck here for another year and a half while my girlfriend finishes her M.A., and UW-Milwaukee has a decently strong terminal M.A. Maybe I can land a job and pursue that M.A. with the hopes that it leads to a PhD. The debt isn't nearly as suicide-inducing as law school debt. Plus I'd be able to work, so it wouldn't all be debt-financed.

So a few options I guess. Better than being stuck at the bottom of my class while racking up tons of debt.

I had/have the same problem. My dad is a bit more rational so I talked to him first. It will be easier if you present a reasonable plan of action, instead of just saying you will drop out. Obviously you dont have to commit to anything but it lets them know you arent giving up on life. I havent told my mom yet and she will take it hard as she is one of those people who thinks every lawyer is Harvey Specter. I think I am going to focus on the reasons I dont want to be a lawyer(which are true) since she is unwilling to accept the economic reality. So if your parents are practical focus on economics, if they are emotional focus on why you dont want to be a lawyer.

gobuffs10 wrote:I agree with dissonance that my situation isn't great, and I took no issue with his post. All of these contributions, minus the end of Random's, have helped. I'm probably going to work out a leave of absence while I figure this shit out. Look for work, for now.

This thread is devolving into little more than insults. Any way we can get a lock on it?

I think that's a fair request. I've been watching this thread, hoping it wouldn't devolve this way, but...
OP, a final thought. 25 isn't old. A leave of absence is a great idea. Stop incurring debt, work for a while, enjoy life. Figure out what you'd like to do. Hang in there, man. Best of luck.