Do 3L Grades matter if I am already screwed? Forum

[MinEMorris]

Alright, obviously I really am just weird. Luckily this mentality has kept me relatively happy so far.

[AntiHuman]

In shitlaw, which op is most likely talking about, no...you're grades absolutely do not matter. You will be lucky if you are ever asked for a transcript.

Can anyone see that this dude is not asking for an in-house position at GE?

So what exactly is shitlaw? Grades don't matter at all for shitlaw? What's the minimum salary I can expect from a standard shitlaw job? 20-25/hour doing doc review?

See biglaw was never in the question for me because I will have no debt coming out. Maybe this is why I didn't try as hard in law school as I should have. I would be thrilled with 25/hour or 40K+ coming out of law school(IF I can pass the bar exam). I can't see myself working 70+ hour weeks. I might have to change this perception of hours/week especially if I want to "hussle".

I really want upward mobility...income wise...even though my first job might be shit. Government jobs/PI jobs are out too then?

I just don't want my grades to haunt me for my entire career. It's kind of like I just dropped 200K for the degree and to become a lawyer. Still feel bad that my grades are low. Nothing I can do now, but to focus on the bar.

interests: criminal defense, personal injury, real estate law, TWE, family law(which my first job will most likely be in)

long term dream lawyer job: sports/entertainment/media

[IAFG]

Alright, obviously I really am just weird. Luckily this mentality has kept me relatively happy so far.

If you got over it and could shift your thinking about developing professional relationships, you might be glad you did.

[typ3]

In shitlaw, which op is most likely talking about, no...you're grades absolutely do not matter. You will be lucky if you are ever asked for a transcript.

Can anyone see that this dude is not asking for an in-house position at GE?

So what exactly is shitlaw? Grades don't matter at all for shitlaw? What's the minimum salary I can expect from a standard shitlaw job? 20-25/hour doing doc review?

See biglaw was never in the question for me because I will have no debt coming out. Maybe this is why I didn't try as hard in law school as I should have. I would be thrilled with 25/hour or 40K+ coming out of law school(IF I can pass the bar exam). I can't see myself working 70+ hour weeks. I might have to change this perception of hours/week especially if I want to "hussle".

I really want upward mobility...income wise...even though my first job might be shit. Government jobs/PI jobs are out too then?

I just don't want my grades to haunt me for my entire career. It's kind of like I just dropped 200K for the degree and to become a lawyer. Still feel bad that my grades are low. Nothing I can do now, but to focus on the bar.

interests: criminal defense, personal injury, real estate law, TWE, family law(which my first job will most likely be in)

long term dream lawyer job: sports/entertainment/media

shitlaw doesn't have to mean doc review.. and there are shitlaw lawyers who make 8 figures... it is whatever you want to make of it.

IMHO, the best shitlaw model to run is a ch. 13/7 Bky practice to feed into SSI/SSD / PI / Work Comp / bad faith. idk how much legwork is required for immigration but that could work as a side feeder as well if you can get high enough volume

[ScottRiqui]

shitlaw doesn't have to mean doc review.. and there are shitlaw lawyers who make 8 figures... it is whatever you want to make of it.

There's a lawyer in the Dallas/ Ft. Worth area (James Mallory) who graduated from UT in 1971 and has been defending traffic tickets continuously since 1974. I don't know if he's still a solo practice or if he has underlings now, but he is THE "go-to" lawyer for traffic violations for Fort Worth, Arlington, and all the surrounding areas. The guy's made serious bank, pretty much $50 at a time, mostly just by filing continuances until the case is dropped.

[suralin]

Also, maybe that ridiculous Kant class I took in undergrad poisoned my mind, but something also just feels really bizarre and dirty about socializing with people and developing relationships almost exclusively as a means to an end. Maybe I'm just really weird, but I guess I take personal interaction pretty seriously, and I have a really hard time going to events, talking with people, etc. with the express purpose of trying to use my good impression to leverage their power to get my life in a better spot.

I'm guessing you only took a single class on Kant and/or said class was a number of years ago? I'm presuming yes because your understanding of Kant's Categorical Imperative is shallow at best and substantially misguided at worst. Kant never says that you can never use a person as a means; in actuality, the second formulation states that humanity ought not be treated as a mere means--this specific misconception has been addressed both by Kant himself and in the relevant academic literature.

Obviously, as others pointed out, there is nothing coercive or disrespectful inherent in mutually using others as means, e.g., buying a good from a salesperson entails that both persons benefit and neither is treated as a mere means. This is all to say that networking should not be purely about improving career prospects. Those with whom you network usually are also friends of some sort; indeed, networking is arguably most effective when such relationships have a genuine foundation of mutual respect/affection.

[MinEMorris]

I'm guessing you only took a single class on Kant and/or said class was a number of years ago? I'm presuming yes because your understanding of Kant's Categorical Imperative is shallow at best and substantially misguided at worst. Kant never says that you can never use a person as a means; in actuality, the second formulation states that humanity ought not be treated as a mere means--this specific misconception has been addressed both by Kant himself and in the relevant academic literature.

Obviously, as others pointed out, there is nothing coercive or disrespectful inherent in mutually using others as means, e.g., buying a good from a salesperson entails that both persons benefit and neither is treated as a mere means. This is all to say that networking should not be purely about improving career prospects. Those with whom you network usually are also friends of some sort; indeed, networking is arguably most effective when such relationships have a genuine foundation of mutual respect/affection.

I really didn't mean to give the impression that I was a deep-seated Kantian scholar, I only meant the comment to be an offhand expression of my own uncertainty about where my feelings on the matter come from. For what it's worth, I did/do realize it was limited to treating humanity as a mere means, which is why I said "almost exclusively", indicating that it was close to Kant's standard. Though, my understanding of Kant in general is very vague and was never strong (indeed, the class was five years ago at this point), and the point we're discussing is just about the only thing I remember from the class.

I think I worded my original post poorly, or at least gave a misleading impression. My comments were really geared toward the active process of networking. I have "networked" in an incidental sense. I've made friends with classmates, gotten to know professors, etc. and received help from these people/helped them out in different ways at different times. What I have a hard time personally getting comfortable with is the process of actively seeking connections for the specific purpose of developing a professional network that I can leverage. When I approach people with that primary purpose, I feel uncomfortable, as though I'm being disingenuous and deceitful. When I wrote my post I had just come off from reading the hustling guide in legal employment ( http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 23&t=87297 ). I think it's a good example of the mentality of people I've known who are active networkers/hustlers. I want to emphasize, as I opened my original post with, that I realize my feelings on these topics are probably overly sensitive and I'm not trying to describe how people should feel, but rather just how I feel on the topic. As someone pointed out in this thread, people who are open to networking attempts are people who are well aware of what's going on and are open to it. I think this is probably true, in which case I figure my intuition is really misguided (not the first time this has happened). But anyway, it's this sort of stuff (im quoting the hustling thread) that I just can't get myself to do for my own sake/advancement:

Race and gender are great predictors of whether a person will help you out or not. So for example, if you are a black gal at Harvard law and there just so happens to be a black woman partner alumni of Harvard Law at the BigLaw firm you are researching, she is your #1 contact for the law firm. Next is age. In my experience, recent graduates are not helpful because a) they are not in a position of power to get you an interview and b) they usually do not have the time to help you out. Read about the attorneys on their firm webpage and also google every attorney's name. If the firm webpage shows a guy that is smiling from ear to ear, and a google search finds he volunteers at Big Brothers Big Sisters, this guy also goes on your list. You get the idea. Spend at least a total of 40 hours doing your research. Like they say, "the case was won way before trial - in the preparation and research."

(3) In general, people actually like helping other people. Lawyers especially love giving advice. Stroke their egos. Sound innocent, eager, and really contemplating the rest of your life. Do not underestimate people's willingness to help a young eager version of themselves. Add all of the lawyers you found in (1) and (2) to your spreadsheet of contacts, even if they didn't respond to your initial email. You should have about 30-40 contacts minimum.

(1) Reach out to family friends, college professors, anybody who knows lawyers. Ask them to introduce you to any of their lawyer friends or any of their friends that have lawyer friends. Do not be shy. DO NOT ASK THEM TO HELP YOU FIND A JOB. No, you need advice. You want to know if BigLaw is a good fit for yourself. You are wondering what a litigation associate does on a day-to-day basis. You are wondering how lawyers go from firms to in-house counsel.

This sort of targetting, studying, active hiding of your true motives, etc., is especially what I have a hard time doing, but all it really is is very smart/effective networking. I must make one admission, though, which is that I have done this sort of thing in the past as part of my job, and I think the fact that I knew it was part of my job (i.e. to bring it clients/make sales) made me comfortable with it. That's probably just blatant moral inconsistency on my part, but for whatever reason I just have a hard time doing it when it's only for my sake/my career.

Anyway, despite my feelings/intuition on the matter, this thread has got me rethinking my no-active-networking policy and some of the points made here have prompted me to reconsider it. Maybe a new-years resolution is in order.

[typ3]

shitlaw doesn't have to mean doc review.. and there are shitlaw lawyers who make 8 figures... it is whatever you want to make of it.

There's a lawyer in the Dallas/ Ft. Worth area (James Mallory) who graduated from UT in 1971 and has been defending traffic tickets continuously since 1974. I don't know if he's still a solo practice or if he has underlings now, but he is THE "go-to" lawyer for traffic violations for Fort Worth, Arlington, and all the surrounding areas. The guy's made serious bank, pretty much $50 at a time, mostly just by filing continuances until the case is dropped.

Most shitlaw lawyers market as solo's because it create's a brand. sort of like political campaigning or marketing. Associating and recognizing the brand of barack obama is instantly recognizable whereas the brand of the "democratic party" is not. It's the same for law marketing.

If you want to see some great shitlaw marketing I strongly encourage you to look at what John Gomez is doing in San Diego. He has come out of nowhere to be a marketing beast. http://www.thegomezfirm.com/

If you think Gerry Spence really wore a buckskin jacket and stetson hat because he liked them and not for marketing than you are sorely mistaken. Shitlaw and lawyer marketing is all about creating a public perception and image.

Don't believe me? Go to the embassy suite hotel across from the federal court house in Des Moines. You'll find him there along with his whole TLC marketing machine until they get a verdict. It's not like he isn't honest in person about the public image he has created for himself.

[IAFG]

This sort of targetting, studying, active hiding of your true motives, etc., is especially what I have a hard time doing, but all it really is is very smart/effective networking. I must make one admission, though, which is that I have done this sort of thing in the past as part of my job, and I think the fact that I knew it was part of my job (i.e. to bring it clients/make sales) made me comfortable with it. That's probably just blatant moral inconsistency on my part, but for whatever reason I just have a hard time doing it when it's only for my sake/my career.

Anyway, despite my feelings/intuition on the matter, this thread has got me rethinking my no-active-networking policy and some of the points made here have prompted me to reconsider it. Maybe a new-years resolution is in order.

You don't have to hide your true motives. Just, you know, have good motives. Start with a sincere interest in your field. You have that, right? Meeting people who are where you want to be several years down the road is something I have to imagine most of us are sincerely interested in. Sincerity will get you everywhere in networking. Single-mindedness is a sign of desperation, which is always bad when you're networking.

Also, like others have said, people really sincerely want to help out younger people when they can. I love helping 2Ls with bidding and interviewing and massmailing. If a 2L reaches out to me for that stuff, I don't feel used at all. It's not that different.

[MinEMorris]

You don't have to hide your true motives. Just, you know, have good motives. Start with a sincere interest in your field. You have that, right? Meeting people who are where you want to be several years down the road is something I have to imagine most of us are sincerely interested in. Sincerity will get you everywhere in networking. Single-mindedness is a sign of desperation, which is always bad when you're networking.

Also, like others have said, people really sincerely want to help out younger people when they can. I love helping 2Ls with bidding and interviewing and massmailing. If a 2L reaches out to me for that stuff, I don't feel used at all. It's not that different.

This is well put and a good point. It is apparent to me that I haven't appreciated a perfectly acceptable middleground between no active networking and hardcore single-minded networking. I think I'll start trying to get out there more.

[typ3]

Guys networking is easy. It is called making friends. When you meet someone new keep the conversation going. Add them on facebook, ask them out to coffee. It's not like you have to be constantly trying to get something from them. Making a connection and a lasting impression is what matters.

[sparty99]

No. Your 3L grades don't matter since you are already in the bottom of your class. However, no need to make the situation any worse. Strive to get your grade up the last semester.

Your focus should now be on motivating yourself to do well on the BAR exam and to meet as many people that you can so you can get a full-time job. There is no difference between you and people at median. You all are f*cked so you need to overcome the grades by getting out there and making contacts, passing the BAR on the first try.

[typ3]

No. Your 3L grades don't matter since you are already in the bottom of your class. However, no need to make the situation any worse. Strive to get your grade up the last semester.

Your focus should now be on motivating yourself to do well on the BAR exam and to meet as many people that you can so you can get a full-time job. There is no difference between you and people at median. You all are f*cked so you need to overcome the grades by getting out there and making contacts, passing the BAR on the first try.

Well, if he is already at the bottom he should spend his time. 1.) not studying for classes and focus on the bar 2.) spend it learning practical skills that he will need. How to hustle, network, balance a trust, market, etc.

[suralin]

If you want to see some great shitlaw marketing I strongly encourage you to look at what John Gomez is doing in San Diego. He has come out of nowhere to be a marketing beast. http://www.thegomezfirm.com/

That website/video is (relative to that of other shitlaw firms) impressive.

[schweitziro]

If you want to see some great shitlaw marketing I strongly encourage you to look at what John Gomez is doing in San Diego. He has come out of nowhere to be a marketing beast. http://www.thegomezfirm.com/

That website/video is (relative to that of other shitlaw firms) impressive.

I agree and I even work for a top major market shitlaw firm. He essentially gave the same speech as any other PI firm though but coupled it with some convincing credentials....
"What distinguishes us is our compassion...." (doubtful.... $$$ > compassion)

Side-note: A shitlaw Partner at a top major market shop is more lucrative than big law equity partner.

[typ3]

If you want to see some great shitlaw marketing I strongly encourage you to look at what John Gomez is doing in San Diego. He has come out of nowhere to be a marketing beast. http://www.thegomezfirm.com/

That website/video is (relative to that of other shitlaw firms) impressive.

Not really, there are a lot of good shitlaw marketers.

See:

http://www.spencelawyers.com
http://www.wkfirm.com
http://www.californiatruckaccidentlawyer.org
http://www.callahan-law.com
http://www.perecman.com

[typ3]

If you want to see some great shitlaw marketing I strongly encourage you to look at what John Gomez is doing in San Diego. He has come out of nowhere to be a marketing beast. http://www.thegomezfirm.com/

That website/video is (relative to that of other shitlaw firms) impressive.

I agree and I even work for a top major market shitlaw firm. He essentially gave the same speech as any other PI firm though but coupled it with some convincing credentials....
"What distinguishes us is our compassion...." (doubtful.... $$$ > compassion)

Side-note: A shitlaw Partner at a top small market shop is more lucrative than big law equity partner.

FTFY

[schweitziro]

If you want to see some great shitlaw marketing I strongly encourage you to look at what John Gomez is doing in San Diego. He has come out of nowhere to be a marketing beast. http://www.thegomezfirm.com/

That website/video is (relative to that of other shitlaw firms) impressive.

I agree and I even work for a top major market shitlaw firm. He essentially gave the same speech as any other PI firm though but coupled it with some convincing credentials....
"What distinguishes us is our compassion...." (doubtful.... $$$ > compassion)

Side-note: A shitlaw Partner at a top small market shop is more lucrative than big law equity partner.

FTFY

Both. Sorry. The Plaintiff firms in fly-over country like Spence probably make more because of the same scale of verdicts but less operating costs and competitors. Can't imagine how loaded that guy is.

[typ3]

Both. Sorry. The Plaintiff firms in fly-over country like Spence probably make more because of the same scale of verdicts but less operating costs and competitors. Can't imagine how loaded that guy is.

FWIW I've spent some time with him in person the last few weeks in Des Moines. His group of lawyers flies back on their private jet to Jackson for the weekends. He just sold a property worth $34,000,000. He also donated an entire ranch to become a preserve in the state of Wyoming that is 30,000,000+ acres. It is gross how much money the lawyers are rolling in. However, from what I observed, it is a three tier system. Spence and his son make the lion's share followed by McCalla and his daughter. Some of the lower lawyers are really just work horses, but I imagine they are still pulling 1m+. Their TLC program is really just another marketing scheme for them to get case referrals and cases to try for a fee.

You're absolutely right about costs though. I know of lawyers who during the 70's-90's made 2-3x what Skadden partners were making in 100k-200k cities. However, those days have passed. Those same guys are probably making around 500k these days, but that's not a bad payday by any means.

[Gorki]

Starting to wish I kept my UG ties to North Dakota instead of going to a saturated Midwestern metro area. Sigh. Buyer's remorse.

[typ3]

Starting to wish I kept my UG ties to North Dakota instead of going to a saturated Midwestern metro area. Sigh. Buyer's remorse.

The funny thing is the lawyers I know in rural ND are raking in cash right now for law suits against trucking companies / oil drilling companies for fracking oil / trucking related injuries.

[MinEMorris]

One thing I'll say about the successful "shitlaw" attorneys I've met is that they were surprisingly cool people. I think part of it is that, having often worked their way from rags to riches, they've been part of virtually every income bracket and every socioeconomic class so it's easy for them to hang in any environment. It probably helps that their clients (i.e. the people they spend their day around) are real people from all walks of life, too.

I imagine there are some shitlaw offices that would be a blast to work at even if the pay isn't great.

[schweitziro]

Starting to wish I kept my UG ties to North Dakota instead of going to a saturated Midwestern metro area. Sigh. Buyer's remorse.

The funny thing is the lawyers I know in rural ND are raking in cash right now for law suits against trucking companies / oil drilling companies for fracking oil / trucking related injuries.

Pretty much anywhere with a mining/oil industry will be lucrative.

[Gorki]

One thing I'll say about the successful "shitlaw" attorneys I've met is that they were surprisingly cool people. I think part of it is that, having often worked their way from rags to riches, they've been part of virtually every income bracket and every socioeconomic class so it's easy for them to hang in any environment. It probably helps that their clients (i.e. the people they spend their day around) are real people from all walks of life, too.

I imagine there are some shitlaw offices that would be a blast to work at even if the pay isn't great.

Yep. Rural practices can be profitable, if you find creative ways to make it pay at the start, but on flip-side shitlaw in urban areas often embody why it is called 'shitlaw'

[AntiHuman]

OP here:

This thread has given me hope. Another final tomorrow and it's closed note/multiple choice. So stupid...this has absolute no correlation to how it is in real life. Should be open note/essays. I love certain subjects of law(criminal law/torts/some property)...but I hate how they do exams some times.

1. Just checked and my goal is actually not to fall in the bottom 10 percent(almost there) by the time graduation rolls around. I think I will also focus MOST of my attention on the BAR. I'll probably start studying in January for the July exam. Any tips or suggestions? Should I just read Barbri outlines? What else can I do? I know I am already screwed and can't salvage much from my last semester GPA wise. I will need to put 110 percent effort into the Bar. Second important thing after Bar prep is tapping into my connections and seeing who will give me a shot? Do I start working after the Bar or after I get licensed?

2. I am probably destined for a shitlaw job. However, I actually value time/flexibility over money, so I guess it worked out in the end? Luckily, I will have no debt at all coming out and I can afford to take a $15/hour job right after the Bar. I guess I'm not completely screwed due to the no debt thing. I'll take anything that pays that includes: criminal defense, personal injury, family law, real estate law(really want to flip homes/rent property out in the far future to make income on the side...might be helpful to get into real estate law?), TWE...Can I pick 2-3 of these or only focus on one practice area?

3. Just curious, what are standard shitlaw job salaries? I am hoping for 40K+ coming out of law school. I also want a job with a lot of financial upward mobility. Is doc review like 25/hour?