TTT Exam Difficulty

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TTT_Student_1L
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TTT Exam Difficulty

Postby TTT_Student_1L » Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:29 am

I go to a relatively new TTT law school because of the financial aid I recieved and location, but my main question is whether TTT or TTTT schools are that much easier than T100 schools. I have taken 3 out of the 4 exams so far and have felt surprisingly well about them. I studied days for each exam and did supplements and practice exams and all of that, but two of them were testing the same ideas in the hypotheticals as the practice exams the professor handed out. I have read on here multiple places that the people who come out of exams feeling confident do the worst, so I am getting nervous about my grades and ability to spot the issues. Is this fairly common for TTT schools to be easier?

I have talked with my classmates and most of them are struggling but a few feel the same way I do.

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dietcoke0
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Re: TTT Exam Difficulty

Postby dietcoke0 » Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:38 am

Yes, they are easier, since the professors aren't going to be as good, and as good on writing the actual exams. Profs probably care more about just collecting their money than teaching. I've noticed from exams I've gotten from different schools how the top 20 seems to have just harder, better tests (more to write about) than those in even T2 schools.

TTT_Student_1L
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Re: TTT Exam Difficulty

Postby TTT_Student_1L » Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:41 am

okay good because I have been getting worried about feeling too confident, but I'm not sure how to improve since I feel like I'm grasping the concepts and what they are trying to test. I read getting to maybe so for every issue of fact or rule i argued both sides. I just feel like all the posts on here are talking about how horrible the exams were, but all of mine have seemed somewhat predictable based on their old exams and what they taught us.

shock259
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Re: TTT Exam Difficulty

Postby shock259 » Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:42 am

It doesn't really matter how "hard" the test itself is. Everything is curved. All that really matters is how you do relative to everyone else.

That said, there may be an argument that TTT students aren't as bright as T14 ones. Then again, I think there's a pretty strong argument that a lot of TTT students are uber gunners because they know that they have to be in the top 10% to have any realistic chance at a job.

TTT_Student_1L
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Re: TTT Exam Difficulty

Postby TTT_Student_1L » Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:45 am

Yea that is what I am afraid of, and I am not sure if I am setting myself apart from the rest. I had time to re-read over the exams before I turned them in and felt like i discussed and analyzed every issue I could spot. It is just making me nervous because I feel like what I have been doing isn't that difficult, its simply memorizing the law and applying it to the facts they give us and give a counter-argument. Unless someone either doesn't know the law, or doesn't know to argue both sides, I can't see how I am beating the curve.

lawyerdown27
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Re: TTT Exam Difficulty

Postby lawyerdown27 » Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:46 am

I think there's a lot of truth to the idea that lower-ranked schools don't give as difficult of exams, but there's no way to know uniformly across the board - it likely just depends on the professor.

Still, even though some of your classmates may feel the same (pretty well/confident) coming out, there's a huge difference between having just spotted issues that were similar to those given out in practice exams and actually delivering on high-level analysis. It seems that a lot of people at my TT feel the same, only to realize they didn't argue both sides of the issue/consider alternatives/make useful comparisons to cases/etc. Not to say you always have to do those things, but a lot of people think they spotted all these issues and don't actually come through with any more than their conclusion and a few sentences why.

If you feel good, you feel good. I don't read much more into it than that - there's no way for you to know until January.

TTT_Student_1L
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Re: TTT Exam Difficulty

Postby TTT_Student_1L » Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:48 am

Yea i guess so, thanks. I still have one more exam and I really want to do great on it, especially since I'm not sure how I did on the other exams.

I have to beat the curve to maintain my scholarship, so that's also where my nerves are coming from

buddingjd
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Re: TTT Exam Difficulty

Postby buddingjd » Fri Dec 07, 2012 10:56 am

Law school isn't hard, the curve is. With that said, there is some truth to the curve being more generous at easier schools. I'd be willing to wager a 170/3.8 would be more likely to be top 33% at a TTT than at a T14. However, it's still a crap-shoot getting into the top 10%. Gunners gun just as hard/possibly harder at TTTs.

MinEMorris
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Re: TTT Exam Difficulty

Postby MinEMorris » Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:17 am

sort of on this note, I go to a T30 and my professor (2L course) lacks practice tests/model answers so I was looking at the exam databases from a couple of TTT/TTTTs. I have to say, I was super impressed by the model student answers, and I personally thought they were way better than the model student answers at my school-- and our test is open book, too.

Point is, like others mentioned, the high stakes and low chances at a TTT/TTTT probably make it just as hard to be #1 there, if not harder, than most tier 1s.

That said, beating median should be easier at your school. Good luck.

bdubs
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Re: TTT Exam Difficulty

Postby bdubs » Fri Dec 07, 2012 11:26 am

I have seen TT and TTT exams that I thought were "harder" than any example or actual exam from my T14. The reason they were harder, though, was that they tested content that we were never expected to memorize. Most of my professors wouldn't dream of having an exam that was all multiple choice and focused on areas of pure memorization (which is what I saw in a few lower ranked LS exams). Memorizing trivialities is (I guess) something that we reserve for bar prep.

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thesealocust
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Re: TTT Exam Difficulty

Postby thesealocust » Fri Dec 07, 2012 2:56 pm

If you thought the exam itself wasn't that hard, you may be screwed, because that doesn't matter at all.

If you thought you performed on the exam better than your peers, then I'd certainly like to know on what basis you formed that opinion, but you could be correct.

It's all about the curve. You can never do well or poorly on a law school exam. You can only under or over perform relative to your classmates.

Gorki
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Re: TTT Exam Difficulty

Postby Gorki » Fri Dec 07, 2012 3:41 pm

dietcoke0 wrote:Yes, they are easier, since the professors aren't going to be as good, and as good on writing the actual exams. Profs probably care more about just collecting their money than teaching. I've noticed from exams I've gotten from different schools how the top 20 seems to have just harder, better tests (more to write about) than those in even T2 schools.

Troll?



Yeah OP, as everyone said, the test could literally just say "repeat all elements of every claim we studied in class." Sounds easy? Well its prob easy to everyone else in the class and the risk of median is still very high.

I agree that there are likely a lot more grade A fuck-ups at low tier schools, but take into account its probably no more than 10-20 in the entire class (not just section)... Add in the fact that I am pretty sure TTTs have much higher class sizes than HYSCCN, and thus having one genuine fuckup impacts the curve far less than it would at a more selective and low-enrollment school,

You will learn in your second semester, and definitely by 2L, that whether your prof is amazing and teaches really well, or sucks and nobody knows a goddamn thing, it is correspondingly difficult to get a good grade. Unlike UG where you are competing against the course, in LS you are competing against the people next to you.


Just keep up studying and good luck.

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I.P. Daly
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Re: TTT Exam Difficulty

Postby I.P. Daly » Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:18 pm

I think exam difficulty is more dependent upon the individual professor and to a lesser extent, the school, than the US News ranking.

Omerta
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Re: TTT Exam Difficulty

Postby Omerta » Sat Dec 08, 2012 3:13 pm

I used some exams from a TTTT for one of my classes because it had the answer key attached. I thought it was hilarious because the professor had very detailed instructions about how to take/turn in the exam, complete with snarky asides, that screamed out his contempt for his own students.

The exams were well-written.

shock259
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Re: TTT Exam Difficulty

Postby shock259 » Sat Dec 08, 2012 11:43 pm

Omerta wrote:I used some exams from a TTTT for one of my classes because it had the answer key attached. I thought it was hilarious because the professor had very detailed instructions about how to take/turn in the exam, complete with snarky asides, that screamed out his contempt for his own students.

The exams were well-written.


Ahaha - I've totally noticed this too. Some of them are really amusing. Ridiculous overuse of bolding/underlining/capital letters, repetition in instructions on what to answer, etc.

09042014
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Re: TTT Exam Difficulty

Postby 09042014 » Sat Dec 08, 2012 11:52 pm

I've taken a couple PT from TTTs. Some were just like tests you'd take at a t14. Long fact pattern Issue spotter.

Some were basically short answer, "tell me you understand what the rule is" shit.

Gorki
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Re: TTT Exam Difficulty

Postby Gorki » Sat Dec 08, 2012 11:57 pm

shock259 wrote:
Omerta wrote:I used some exams from a TTTT for one of my classes because it had the answer key attached. I thought it was hilarious because the professor had very detailed instructions about how to take/turn in the exam, complete with snarky asides, that screamed out his contempt for his own students.

The exams were well-written.


Ahaha - I've totally noticed this too. Some of them are really amusing. Ridiculous overuse of bolding/underlining/capital letters, repetition in instructions on what to answer, etc.


That out-of-the-blue requirement to hand that question sheet in at the end... such a curve setter.

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spleenworship
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Re: TTT Exam Difficulty

Postby spleenworship » Sun Dec 09, 2012 12:37 am

Y'all have to remember that even a TTTT will have some HYS educated professors.

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TTRansfer
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Re: TTT Exam Difficulty

Postby TTRansfer » Sun Dec 09, 2012 2:15 am

There is no real difference in how hard the tests are.

There is a serious fucking difference in how harsh the curve is.

84weeks
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Re: TTT Exam Difficulty

Postby 84weeks » Tue Dec 11, 2012 4:32 pm

Totally anecdotal and not at all representative (I assume), but this needed to be shared:
http://abovethelaw.com/2011/12/the-evid ... e-to-pass/

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spleenworship
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Re: TTT Exam Difficulty

Postby spleenworship » Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:30 pm

84weeks wrote:Totally anecdotal and not at all representative (I assume), but this needed to be shared:
http://abovethelaw.com/2011/12/the-evid ... e-to-pass/



More proof that law school is a joke.

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AVBucks4239
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Re: TTT Exam Difficulty

Postby AVBucks4239 » Tue Dec 11, 2012 5:33 pm

I transferred from a TTT to a TT. My anectodal experience seems to be that the exams were relatively similar at both schools.

More importantly, this is just a pointless question. Everything is curved. If the exam is harder, it's harder for everybody. If it's "easier," then it's easier for everybody. Despite what you may think, it all just comes down to knowing how to write an exam.

dietcoke0 wrote:Yes, they are easier, since the professors aren't going to be as good, and as good on writing the actual exams. Profs probably care more about just collecting their money than teaching. I've noticed from exams I've gotten from different schools how the top 20 seems to have just harder, better tests (more to write about) than those in even T2 schools.

That's one of the dumbest sentences I've ever read on this site. Really, to make such a blatant assumption based on absolutely pointless US News Rankings is just pure arrogance/stupidity on your part.

Gorki
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Re: TTT Exam Difficulty

Postby Gorki » Tue Dec 11, 2012 6:48 pm

84weeks wrote:Totally anecdotal and not at all representative (I assume), but this needed to be shared:
http://abovethelaw.com/2011/12/the-evid ... e-to-pass/

You know the saddest part is that those Qs would create more panic among students than the most brutal, no-holds-barred, issue spotter.

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XxSpyKEx
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Re: TTT Exam Difficulty

Postby XxSpyKEx » Thu Dec 13, 2012 5:19 am

spleenworship wrote:Y'all have to remember that even a TTTT will have some HYS educated professors.


True. Most profs at t3 and t4 law schools are, at a minimum, t14 grads (the only exception I've noticed is that law schools tend to hire at least a few of their own grads--probably because it would send a negative message to students about the law school to not). Getting a job as a law prof is insanely difficult no matter where you attend law school. Even if you attended YLS, getting a prof gig at a t4 is a win.

TTT_Student_1L wrote:I go to a relatively new TTT law school because of the financial aid I recieved and location, but my main question is whether TTT or TTTT schools are that much easier than T100 schools. I have taken 3 out of the 4 exams so far and have felt surprisingly well about them. I studied days for each exam and did supplements and practice exams and all of that, but two of them were testing the same ideas in the hypotheticals as the practice exams the professor handed out. I have read on here multiple places that the people who come out of exams feeling confident do the worst, so I am getting nervous about my grades and ability to spot the issues. Is this fairly common for TTT schools to be easier?

I have talked with my classmates and most of them are struggling but a few feel the same way I do.


As others have mentioned, it's really more about the curve than the exam itself. Having been to both a TTT and a t10, I honestly thought the exams were fairly similar. Difficultly mostly depended on the individual profs. The biggest difference was the quality of the cohort. Whereas most students would miss a ton of stuff on even an "easy" exam at the TTT, most students students at the t10 would get basically the same points on an "easy" exam at the t14 (e.g. the difference between a C+ and an A in one torts class at the t10 was 8 points out of a 200 point exam!). That last sentence only applies to 1L classes though (a lot of people slack after 1L).

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LazinessPerSe
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Re: TTT Exam Difficulty

Postby LazinessPerSe » Thu Dec 13, 2012 6:00 am

Literally no difference between T1 / TTTT exams I've taken. There were more overt gunners in the TTTT. Could also be that only the clerkship gunners give a shit in 2L.




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