Open Book Exams - Do you have to memorize?

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uvabro
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Open Book Exams - Do you have to memorize?

Postby uvabro » Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:05 pm

I know the concepts pretty well - the general laws, many of the cases.

Exams are open notes as long as theyre ur own.

Gotz my outlines with hyperlinks to each section (which takes forever).

I hate memorizing, hate it. I like learning and applying. Will it be bad if i dont memorize the outline, but just take mad tests?

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gaud
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Re: Open Book Exams - Do you have to memorize?

Postby gaud » Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:07 pm

Have you had midterms or anything?

If there's one thing my open-book midterm taught me it's that i'm glad I had that shit memorized

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ph14
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Re: Open Book Exams - Do you have to memorize?

Postby ph14 » Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:07 pm

uvabro wrote:I know the concepts pretty well - the general laws, many of the cases.

Exams are open notes as long as theyre ur own.

Gotz my outlines with hyperlinks to each section (which takes forever).

I hate memorizing, hate it. I like learning and applying. Will it be bad if i dont memorize the outline, but just take mad tests?


It depends. You should know major rules and stuff by heart (which can be done easily through practice). But you will be fine if you don't remember all the elements of undue influence or something and can look to your outline refresh your memory on the test. The important thing is to know it well enough to recognize that undue influence is an issue here.

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kapital98
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Re: Open Book Exams - Do you have to memorize?

Postby kapital98 » Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:25 pm

uvabro wrote:I know the concepts pretty well - the general laws, many of the cases.

Exams are open notes as long as theyre ur own.

Gotz my outlines with hyperlinks to each section (which takes forever).

I hate memorizing, hate it. I like learning and applying. Will it be bad if i dont memorize the outline, but just take mad tests?


The most important thing is to be able to spot the issue and recognize counterarguments. Even with an outline, you still have to be able to do this without looking at your outline. The more you look at your outline the less time you have to write.

This means some memorization will be necessary. Use your outline to give exact rule definitions and as an emergency lifeline in case something goes wrong.

You sound like you're on the right track.

uvabro
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Re: Open Book Exams - Do you have to memorize?

Postby uvabro » Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:32 pm

kapital98 wrote:
uvabro wrote:I know the concepts pretty well - the general laws, many of the cases.

Exams are open notes as long as theyre ur own.

Gotz my outlines with hyperlinks to each section (which takes forever).

I hate memorizing, hate it. I like learning and applying. Will it be bad if i dont memorize the outline, but just take mad tests?


The most important thing is to be able to spot the issue and recognize counterarguments. Even with an outline, you still have to be able to do this without looking at your outline. The more you look at your outline the less time you have to write.

This means some memorization will be necessary. Use your outline to give exact rule definitions and as an emergency lifeline in case something goes wrong.

You sound like you're on the right track.

cool yeah i mean i have a lot of restatement stuff i don't know by hard, but know all the elements to in my less than eloquent way of learning to apply to facts. i'm getting the hang of thinking like a lawyer, but talking like one is not my strong suit.

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dextermorgan
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Re: Open Book Exams - Do you have to memorize?

Postby dextermorgan » Tue Nov 20, 2012 5:35 pm

My Contracts mid-term was open book. I used a simple flowchart and wrote about seven pages, most other people spent the hour flipping through the book and wound up with three pages if they were lucky. Memorize that shit.

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kalvano
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Re: Open Book Exams - Do you have to memorize?

Postby kalvano » Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:58 pm

Tab the shit out of those books, too. I use the nice tabs with room to write on them, and it saves me a good deal of time on the exam to be able to flip to right where I need to be.

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ilovesf
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Re: Open Book Exams - Do you have to memorize?

Postby ilovesf » Tue Nov 20, 2012 9:05 pm

It is less important. The important things will be: tabs, a good list of all topics and what pages they are on. For open book tests I have a long outline and a short attack page/2 pages with the main points.

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3|ink
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Re: Open Book Exams - Do you have to memorize?

Postby 3|ink » Tue Nov 20, 2012 10:37 pm

Know the structure. Rely on the book for the details.

uvabro
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Re: Open Book Exams - Do you have to memorize?

Postby uvabro » Wed Nov 21, 2012 12:03 am

im not using any book - should i?

i have everything that could possibly show up in my outline hyperlinked to the outline.

i was thinking instead of the 2 page attack plan i'd just use my 2 page tale of contents..... what else would u put on there?

for example - i have it structured around Duty-Breach, Causation (haven't done damages yet).

And I got something like:

F: JOINT & SEVERABLE LIABILITY
i. ALTERNATIVE LIABILITY - hyperlinked to Summer v. Tice (each liable)
ii. MARKET SHARE LIABILITY - sindell (relative to %age of market share).

i already know the basic layman's term rules by hard, but it's much more time consuming to memorize the fancy shmancy way of writing things.

not gonna lie, e&e's with this shit are kinda fun.

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kapital98
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Re: Open Book Exams - Do you have to memorize?

Postby kapital98 » Wed Nov 21, 2012 1:37 am

uvabro wrote:im not using any book - should i?

i have everything that could possibly show up in my outline hyperlinked to the outline.

i was thinking instead of the 2 page attack plan i'd just use my 2 page tale of contents..... what else would u put on there?

for example - i have it structured around Duty-Breach, Causation (haven't done damages yet).

And I got something like:

F: JOINT & SEVERABLE LIABILITY
i. ALTERNATIVE LIABILITY - hyperlinked to Summer v. Tice (each liable)
ii. MARKET SHARE LIABILITY - sindell (relative to %age of market share).

i already know the basic layman's term rules by hard, but it's much more time consuming to memorize the fancy shmancy way of writing things.

not gonna lie, e&e's with this shit are kinda fun.


Did your professor tell you to use cases? Most won't care that you know "Summer v. Tice". They will only care about the rule. A 2 page attack plan is nice because it has all the core rules in one place --- your outline doesn't.

Not that there is anything wrong with remembering specific cases. Just don't let that get in the way of more important stuff (specifically, the rule from the case).

P.S. The E&E's are fun :)

uvabro
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Re: Open Book Exams - Do you have to memorize?

Postby uvabro » Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:12 am

Ya im a name guy - 1st 1 is where if 2 mofos shoot a rifle and one hits P, theyre both liable. Sindells bout druggggs be drugging babies up so thencourt says it aint cool and hollds them liable to the percentage of dope they scoped.

I mean the rules are like 4. Reasonableness standard, bpl, but for causation, the rest is fine tuning.

uvabro
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Re: Open Book Exams - Do you have to memorize?

Postby uvabro » Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:19 am

kapital98 wrote:
uvabro wrote:im not using any book - should i?

i have everything that could possibly show up in my outline hyperlinked to the outline.

i was thinking instead of the 2 page attack plan i'd just use my 2 page tale of contents..... what else would u put on there?

for example - i have it structured around Duty-Breach, Causation (haven't done damages yet).

And I got something like:

F: JOINT & SEVERABLE LIABILITY
i. ALTERNATIVE LIABILITY - hyperlinked to Summer v. Tice (each liable)
ii. MARKET SHARE LIABILITY - sindell (relative to %age of market share).

i already know the basic layman's term rules by hard, but it's much more time consuming to memorize the fancy shmancy way of writing things.

not gonna lie, e&e's with this shit are kinda fun.


Did your professor tell you to use cases? Most won't care that you know "Summer v. Tice". They will only care about the rule. A 2 page attack plan is nice because it has all the core rules in one place --- your outline doesn't.

Not that there is anything wrong with remembering specific cases. Just don't let that get in the way of more important stuff (specifically, the rule from the case).

P.S. The E&E's are fun :)

The model answer on contracts just put in the case rule. In torts we do almost all cases, like 10 a class. She's also very fact heavy so i assume shell want us tonstate the general rule then use simikar cases for and against us.

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coldshoulder
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Re: Open Book Exams - Do you have to memorize?

Postby coldshoulder » Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:31 am

What exam software does your school use? Most exam software requires you to have a WRITTEN outline, because it shuts down anything else on your computer, meaning links wouldn't work.

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5ky
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Re: Open Book Exams - Do you have to memorize?

Postby 5ky » Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:48 am

coldshoulder wrote:What exam software does your school use? Most exam software requires you to have a WRITTEN outline, because it shuts down anything else on your computer, meaning links wouldn't work.


uva doesn't use exam software. dat honor code.

that said, some professors do require you to have written outlines, although i'm assuming OP has checked that out.

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kapital98
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Re: Open Book Exams - Do you have to memorize?

Postby kapital98 » Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:03 pm

uvabro wrote:The model answer on contracts just put in the case rule. In torts we do almost all cases, like 10 a class. She's also very fact heavy so i assume shell want us to state the general rule then use similar cases for and against us.


:?

Just because she uses cases doesn't mean she will test on cases. Facts within a case are outside the scope of an exam. Professors limit the scope to give everyone an equal opportunity (or, more cynically, to make grading easier). 95% of professors teach almost exclusively on cases. Only a fraction (~10%) require or prefer case names.

This is a common trap 1L's fall into. They expect to be tested on the cases, similar to how they would be tested on material in undergrad. Then the test comes and it has nothing to do with the cases. Maybe, if you're really lucky, the fact pattern will be similiar. But that still won't help much because the fact pattern will be changed to allow multiple interpretations of the facts (there is no "1" right answer).

Ultimately, this is a judgment call. You must choose what to emphasize during your studying.


Example: My Contracts professor was a classic Socratic Method teacher who would talk about facts specific to cases all class long. He would briefly mention the rule or UCC and then dive right back into the facts. Well, all of that discussion was almost meaningless when it came to the exam. He had a checklist of rules and analysis on what to look for. Case names and case analogies were not part of that checklist. If it wasn't on the checklist you had almost no chance of gaining points.

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ph14
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Re: Open Book Exams - Do you have to memorize?

Postby ph14 » Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:31 pm

kapital98 wrote:
uvabro wrote:The model answer on contracts just put in the case rule. In torts we do almost all cases, like 10 a class. She's also very fact heavy so i assume shell want us to state the general rule then use similar cases for and against us.


:?

Just because she uses cases doesn't mean she will test on cases. Facts within a case are outside the scope of an exam. Professors limit the scope to give everyone an equal opportunity (or, more cynically, to make grading easier). 95% of professors teach almost exclusively on cases. Only a fraction (~10%) require or prefer case names.

This is a common trap 1L's fall into. They expect to be tested on the cases, similar to how they would be tested on material in undergrad. Then the test comes and it has nothing to do with the cases. Maybe, if you're really lucky, the fact pattern will be similiar. But that still won't help much because the fact pattern will be changed to allow multiple interpretations of the facts (there is no "1" right answer).

Ultimately, this is a judgment call. You must choose what to emphasize during your studying.


Example: My Contracts professor was a classic Socratic Method teacher who would talk about facts specific to cases all class long. He would briefly mention the rule or UCC and then dive right back into the facts. Well, all of that discussion was almost meaningless when it came to the exam. He had a checklist of rules and analysis on what to look for. Case names and case analogies were not part of that checklist. If it wasn't on the checklist you had almost no chance of gaining points.


I disagree with your statement to the extent you say that case analogies are not important. Case analogies are important for your analysis section. Additionally, citing cases adds credibility to your answer. While not really necessary to your answer, the time invested both in studying on the exam to put a case name in is extremely minimal. For example, on your civ pro exam, when you are discussing personal jurisdiction and giving the minimum contacts rule, you might as well add on in parenthesis (Int'l Shoe). And when you are analyzing, you can point to features that make it similar or different to cases you talk about, adding depth and support to your reasoning.

P.S.: Your statistics are completely made up and wrong.

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kapital98
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Re: Open Book Exams - Do you have to memorize?

Postby kapital98 » Wed Nov 21, 2012 2:56 pm

ph14 wrote:
I disagree with your statement to the extent you say that case analogies are not important. Case analogies are important for your analysis section. Additionally, citing cases adds credibility to your answer. While not really necessary to your answer, the time invested both in studying on the exam to put a case name in is extremely minimal. For example, on your civ pro exam, when you are discussing personal jurisdiction and giving the minimum contacts rule, you might as well add on in parenthesis (Int'l Shoe). And when you are analyzing, you can point to features that make it similar or different to cases you talk about, adding depth and support to your reasoning.

P.S.: Your statistics are completely made up and wrong.


Oh, you're calling out my statistics? :)

They are completely made up but far from wrong. Last year I had 1/7 professors ask for case names on traditional final exams (take-home exams were completely different). The rest that had model answers and crib sheets showed a complete disinterest in case names.

The use of cases is contentious and a matter of discretion. The professors at my school that had model exams had many, many on file. Of them, there was almost never analogies to cases (and those that did analogize didn't seem to get credit for it). Not to say all professors grade this way, some do, but it's hardly the majority. This is a matter of preference where knowing the grading style is more important than any bright line rule. However, if any rule can be tentatively established, it's that cases are not important.

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ph14
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Re: Open Book Exams - Do you have to memorize?

Postby ph14 » Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:02 pm

kapital98 wrote:
ph14 wrote:
I disagree with your statement to the extent you say that case analogies are not important. Case analogies are important for your analysis section. Additionally, citing cases adds credibility to your answer. While not really necessary to your answer, the time invested both in studying on the exam to put a case name in is extremely minimal. For example, on your civ pro exam, when you are discussing personal jurisdiction and giving the minimum contacts rule, you might as well add on in parenthesis (Int'l Shoe). And when you are analyzing, you can point to features that make it similar or different to cases you talk about, adding depth and support to your reasoning.

P.S.: Your statistics are completely made up and wrong.


Oh, you're calling out my statistics? :)

They are completely made up but far from wrong. Last year I had 1/7 professors ask for case names on traditional final exams (take-home exams were completely different). The rest that had model answers and crib sheets showed a complete disinterest in case names.

The use of cases is contentious and a matter of discretion. The professors at my school that had model exams had many, many on file. Of them, there was almost never analogies to cases (and those that did analogize didn't seem to get credit for it). Not to say all professors grade this way, some do, but it's hardly the majority. This is a matter of preference where knowing the grading style is more important than any bright line rule. However, if any rule can be tentatively established, it's that cases are not important.


No. Quality of analysis does matter. The professor is not just robotically checking off "spotted personal jurisdiction issue," "spotted venue issue," "spotted subject matter jurisdiction issue" etc. Cases give depth and flesh out the meaning of rules.

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Re: Open Book Exams - Do you have to memorize?

Postby uvabro » Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:15 pm

well for civ pro for instance, i plan on bringing in cases to be able to make counterarguments. we're likely going to get a stream of commerce issue for P.J. and there's 1 case (ohio something) that will let me be the 1 person to argue there was purposeful availment if say someone buys a car in Columbus, OH and drives it to Pittsburgh, PA to work because it'd be diff than Volkswagen. The ohio case said dumping shit in a river flowing in a particular direction was purposeful availment to the state it will naturally flow into. I think a strong argument applies here, and without a case to cite, I feel like I wouldn't have any credibility aside from just that the facts are different.

also i'm not very fact friendly. i'm a splitter. i meant the facts of cases in the sense that in many cases (in my limited wisdom of being a 1L), the court says they hold the way they do, because of a series of broad facts that are each independent necessary conditions so if 1 necessary condition comes out (say in Kline, if the rape or whatever crap happened was the 1st time it happened but it was a high crime neighborhood), the court's ruling would have prob been different. i feel like i need facts to say this is the general rule, but this is why the rule is fucked here so we need to look at some other shit.
Last edited by uvabro on Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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kapital98
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Re: Open Book Exams - Do you have to memorize?

Postby kapital98 » Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:16 pm

ph14 wrote:No. Quality of analysis does matter. The professor is not just robotically checking off "spotted personal jurisdiction issue," "spotted venue issue," "spotted subject matter jurisdiction issue" etc. Cases give depth and flesh out the meaning of rules.


I would never say quality of analysis doesn't matter. What I'm saying is analogizing specific cases does not necessarily add depth to analysis. It's largely superfluous. The professor is looking for analysis of the facts based on rules. They do not generally care about statements like, "As in Tice v. Summers" or "This is a lot like Tice v. Summers because". It's not part of their checklist and will not add points. Unlike my imaginative statistics, this is something the cribs sheets and model answers show quite clearly.

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kapital98
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Re: Open Book Exams - Do you have to memorize?

Postby kapital98 » Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:21 pm

uvabro wrote:well for civ pro for instance, i plan on bringing in cases to be able to make counterarguments. we're likely going to get a stream of commerce issue for P.J. and there's 1 case (ohio something) that will let me be the 1 person to argue there was purposeful availment if say someone buys a car in Columbus, OH and drives it to Pittsburgh, PA to work because it'd be diff than Volkswagen. The ohio case said dumping shit in a river flowing in a particular direction was purposeful availment to the state it will naturally flow into. I think a strong argument applies here, and without a case to cite, I feel like I wouldn't have any credibility aside from just that the facts are different.


It looks like you've decided and I hope you do well. After you get your exam back see the professor and talk about if the case analogies helped earn points. If they do, you know to use them next semester.

On that note, you could probably ask them this before the exam. They will probably give you general affirmative statements ("Yes, they will help"). But, who knows? They might say something useful (ex: "Use case analogies when X").

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Re: Open Book Exams - Do you have to memorize?

Postby uvabro » Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:27 pm

kapital98 wrote:
ph14 wrote:No. Quality of analysis does matter. The professor is not just robotically checking off "spotted personal jurisdiction issue," "spotted venue issue," "spotted subject matter jurisdiction issue" etc. Cases give depth and flesh out the meaning of rules.


I would never say quality of analysis doesn't matter. What I'm saying is analogizing specific cases does not necessarily add depth to analysis. It's largely superfluous. The professor is looking for analysis of the facts based on rules. They do not generally care about statements like, "As in Tice v. Summers" or "This is a lot like Tice v. Summers because". It's not part of their checklist and will not add points. Unlike my imaginative statistics, this is something the cribs sheets and model answers show quite clearly.

well the rules are more difficult to memorize. a case name paints a picture of shit, which makes it easier to remember oh this reminds me of this shit, and the rule was..... i agree case names don't matter. but this is all besides the point. i hope the hyperlink stuff is ok. i haven't checked. i assumed if u can use ur own outlines on ur computer - if u created links around the outline to navigate quicker it'd be fair play? i obviously don't wanna cheat. just not worth getting ahead that way and the juice aint worth the squeeze.

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ph14
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Re: Open Book Exams - Do you have to memorize?

Postby ph14 » Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:29 pm

kapital98 wrote:
uvabro wrote:well for civ pro for instance, i plan on bringing in cases to be able to make counterarguments. we're likely going to get a stream of commerce issue for P.J. and there's 1 case (ohio something) that will let me be the 1 person to argue there was purposeful availment if say someone buys a car in Columbus, OH and drives it to Pittsburgh, PA to work because it'd be diff than Volkswagen. The ohio case said dumping shit in a river flowing in a particular direction was purposeful availment to the state it will naturally flow into. I think a strong argument applies here, and without a case to cite, I feel like I wouldn't have any credibility aside from just that the facts are different.


It looks like you've decided and I hope you do well. After you get your exam back see the professor and talk about if the case analogies helped earn points. If they do, you know to use them next semester.

On that note, you could probably ask them this before the exam. They will probably give you general affirmative statements ("Yes, they will help"). But, who knows? They might say something useful (ex: "Use case analogies when X").


Just be sure not to spend all your time explaining how the facts are similar/dissimilar to cases, but rather to use them in support of your analysis. They complement your dissection of the facts.

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kalvano
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Re: Open Book Exams - Do you have to memorize?

Postby kalvano » Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:44 pm

Cite cases when and where you can. Don't delve into facts or anything like that, but if a case stands for a rule you are using or is similar to the fact pattern, then just cite the name. The professor will know it it. So you might say "This instance is similar to Winken v. Blinken. Just as in that case, here the defendant blah blah blah." It doesn't cost you but a couple seconds, and it might get you points. It may not, but it certainly won't hurt. I've had professors give a half point or something like that if you cited the right case but weren't quite right in the analysis, but they could tell where you were going because of the case cite. Don't waste time talking about the case, but do give it a mention. Also, you'll need to know any really big cases, like Shoe or Miranda.

It's also good to be familiar with cases as a lot of profs will use fact patterns from them in their test fact pattern. It's happened a bunch of times.

Teal deer: it won't hurt you to quickly cite cases, but it can help you.




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