Easiest Areas of Practice

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typ3
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Re: Easiest Areas of Practice

Postby typ3 » Wed Nov 07, 2012 4:48 pm

Personal Injury / Worker's Comp / Wrongful Death, Bankruptcy, S.S. Disability.

98% of this work can be farmed out to paralegals / legal assistants. As long as you are fine with high volume work and are organized / can manage people this is the most lucrative path in shit law. In fact, you used to be able to make more than biglaw partners in small/rural metro areas doing this until partner salaries skyrocketed the last decade..

The key to making money in shitlaw is the opposite of biglaw. In big law you want large elephant clients to give you repeat work.

In shitlaw you need to get as high of volume practice as you can to cast a wide net for personal injury / automobile / worker's comp accidents.

Eventually, one of your former clients or a family member / friend will get injured and they will call you since they had you before as an attorney. Once you have a client once they are yours until you do something egregious or completely screw them over. Eventually you'll get a good high insurance limit injury case with catastrophic injuries (death, surgeries etc.) and be able to collect a 100k+ check by doing around 40hrs of work (collect records, meet with client, write insurance demand, reject first few offers, write counter-demands, settle with the insurance agent). The nice thing about bankruptcy and PI is that it is so routine all you need to do is meet with the client on the first appointment, set the hook and have them hire you, and then farm it out to your paralegals.

In shit law if you can get as high of volume practice as you can with as little court room time / hearings as possible that is your best option for something "easy." Being in court / hearings doesn't make you money. Spending more time on marketing, meeting with people, getting clients for work that can then be turned over to paralegal / assistant staff makes you money.

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barestin
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Re: Easiest Areas of Practice

Postby barestin » Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:34 pm

vanwinkle wrote:If there was a such thing as an "easy" area of law that paid money, there would be 20,000 people fighting you for that job.


(Someone who has never worked ShitLaw). The reason there aren't 20,000 people doing it is because many law student graduates without prospects are either introverts, lack confidence, lack capital (which isn't much for starting a small office to begin with), inept at completing legal work, or some combination of these characteristics.

Thank you to those who chimed in about estate planning. I guess I have more research to do about the field but from what some law school friends who have worked in estate planning offices have told me, once you build a good collection of templates, most of the work in drafting wills and trusts is copy/paste. I heard this was the same case for DUI defense and I know this was the case for family law. I worked in family law for two years and not once did a complex tax issue come up.

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typ3
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Re: Easiest Areas of Practice

Postby typ3 » Thu Nov 08, 2012 1:03 pm

barestin wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:If there was a such thing as an "easy" area of law that paid money, there would be 20,000 people fighting you for that job.


(Someone who has never worked ShitLaw). The reason there aren't 20,000 people doing it is because many law student graduates without prospects are either introverts, lack confidence, lack capital (which isn't much for starting a small office to begin with), inept at completing legal work, or some combination of these characteristics.

Thank you to those who chimed in about estate planning. I guess I have more research to do about the field but from what some law school friends who have worked in estate planning offices have told me, once you build a good collection of templates, most of the work in drafting wills and trusts is copy/paste. I heard this was the same case for DUI defense and I know this was the case for family law. I worked in family law for two years and not once did a complex tax issue come up.


Almost everything in shitlaw is copy/paste.

Which is why introverts like you said and people with basic business skills like marketing can crush their competition. Honestly, be a solo or two man shop. Take in as much work as you can handle, then take in some more, and farm it out to legal assistants / paralegals. 99% of legal work doesn't require a J.D., just general competence.

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dingbat
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Re: Easiest Areas of Practice

Postby dingbat » Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:22 pm

barestin wrote: some law school friends who have worked in estate planning offices have told me, once you build a good collection of templates, most of the work in drafting wills and trusts is copy/paste.

Yes and no. Generally, you start with a template and then adjust accordingly. But, on the high end at least, there are a lot of variables. For example, if someone wants to establish an irrevocable life insurance trust, should this be funded with a private premium finance loan or a split-dollar arrangement (or a gift, but never do that)? The drafting part is relatively simple, figuring out the ideal set-up is not. How about illegitimate children? Should proceeds be divided per capita or per stirpes? (easy question, but still)

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barestin
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Re: Easiest Areas of Practice

Postby barestin » Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:22 pm

typ3 wrote:
barestin wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:If there was a such thing as an "easy" area of law that paid money, there would be 20,000 people fighting you for that job.


(Someone who has never worked ShitLaw). The reason there aren't 20,000 people doing it is because many law student graduates without prospects are either introverts, lack confidence, lack capital (which isn't much for starting a small office to begin with), inept at completing legal work, or some combination of these characteristics.

Thank you to those who chimed in about estate planning. I guess I have more research to do about the field but from what some law school friends who have worked in estate planning offices have told me, once you build a good collection of templates, most of the work in drafting wills and trusts is copy/paste. I heard this was the same case for DUI defense and I know this was the case for family law. I worked in family law for two years and not once did a complex tax issue come up.


Almost everything in shitlaw is copy/paste.

Which is why introverts like you said and people with basic business skills like marketing can crush their competition. Honestly, be a solo or two man shop. Take in as much work as you can handle, then take in some more, and farm it out to legal assistants / paralegals. 99% of legal work doesn't require a J.D., just general competence.


Agreed. And I meant introverts in the sense that they are unable to retain clients because they don't appear confident and can't sell themselves effectively during client interviews, network, etc. Not in the sense that they can't actually complete basic legal work.

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Scotusnerd
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Re: Easiest Areas of Practice

Postby Scotusnerd » Thu Nov 08, 2012 4:48 pm

you should try pro se litigation.

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SuperCerealBrah
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Re: Easiest Areas of Practice

Postby SuperCerealBrah » Thu Nov 08, 2012 5:33 pm

dingbat wrote:
barestin wrote: some law school friends who have worked in estate planning offices have told me, once you build a good collection of templates, most of the work in drafting wills and trusts is copy/paste.

Yes and no. Generally, you start with a template and then adjust accordingly. But, on the high end at least, there are a lot of variables. For example, if someone wants to establish an irrevocable life insurance trust, should this be funded with a private premium finance loan or a split-dollar arrangement (or a gift, but never do that)? The drafting part is relatively simple, figuring out the ideal set-up is not. How about illegitimate children? Should proceeds be divided per capita or per stirpes? (easy question, but still)


This. It is a huge oversimplification to say "oh it is just all copy/paste mindless work". There may be a lot of copy/pasting, but you still have to know what is in the best interest of your particular client and what the fuck it all means. You need to know what the copying and pasting actually means and how it will effect your particular clients interests. If you don't, you will be an awful lawyer and probably commit malpractice. Estate planning has a very high malpractice rate. Do people really think that is just because a lawyer was terrible at copy/pasting? Just because you are not writing a 10 page memo from scratch does not mean you are not doing substantive work or that your services are not valued by the client.

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dingbat
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Re: Easiest Areas of Practice

Postby dingbat » Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:27 pm

SuperCerealBrah wrote:
dingbat wrote:
barestin wrote: some law school friends who have worked in estate planning offices have told me, once you build a good collection of templates, most of the work in drafting wills and trusts is copy/paste.

Yes and no. Generally, you start with a template and then adjust accordingly. But, on the high end at least, there are a lot of variables. For example, if someone wants to establish an irrevocable life insurance trust, should this be funded with a private premium finance loan or a split-dollar arrangement (or a gift, but never do that)? The drafting part is relatively simple, figuring out the ideal set-up is not. How about illegitimate children? Should proceeds be divided per capita or per stirpes? (easy question, but still)


This. It is a huge oversimplification to say "oh it is just all copy/paste mindless work". There may be a lot of copy/pasting, but you still have to know what is in the best interest of your particular client and what the fuck it all means. You need to know what the copying and pasting actually means and how it will effect your particular clients interests. If you don't, you will be an awful lawyer and probably commit malpractice. Estate planning has a very high malpractice rate. Do people really think that is just because a lawyer was terrible at copy/pasting? Just because you are not writing a 10 page memo from scratch does not mean you are not doing substantive work or that your services are not valued by the client.

relevant

071816
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Re: Easiest Areas of Practice

Postby 071816 » Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:30 pm

Copyright trolling.

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SuperCerealBrah
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Re: Easiest Areas of Practice

Postby SuperCerealBrah » Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:36 pm

dingbat wrote:
SuperCerealBrah wrote:
dingbat wrote:
barestin wrote: some law school friends who have worked in estate planning offices have told me, once you build a good collection of templates, most of the work in drafting wills and trusts is copy/paste.

Yes and no. Generally, you start with a template and then adjust accordingly. But, on the high end at least, there are a lot of variables. For example, if someone wants to establish an irrevocable life insurance trust, should this be funded with a private premium finance loan or a split-dollar arrangement (or a gift, but never do that)? The drafting part is relatively simple, figuring out the ideal set-up is not. How about illegitimate children? Should proceeds be divided per capita or per stirpes? (easy question, but still)


This. It is a huge oversimplification to say "oh it is just all copy/paste mindless work". There may be a lot of copy/pasting, but you still have to know what is in the best interest of your particular client and what the fuck it all means. You need to know what the copying and pasting actually means and how it will effect your particular clients interests. If you don't, you will be an awful lawyer and probably commit malpractice. Estate planning has a very high malpractice rate. Do people really think that is just because a lawyer was terrible at copy/pasting? Just because you are not writing a 10 page memo from scratch does not mean you are not doing substantive work or that your services are not valued by the client.

relevant


lol I am not getting into a legalzoom argument again. Suffice it to say legalzoom is not completely replacing estate planners anymore than turbotax has replaced accountants.

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dingbat
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Re: Easiest Areas of Practice

Postby dingbat » Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:51 pm

SuperCerealBrah wrote:
dingbat wrote:
SuperCerealBrah wrote:
dingbat wrote:Yes and no. Generally, you start with a template and then adjust accordingly. But, on the high end at least, there are a lot of variables. For example, if someone wants to establish an irrevocable life insurance trust, should this be funded with a private premium finance loan or a split-dollar arrangement (or a gift, but never do that)? The drafting part is relatively simple, figuring out the ideal set-up is not. How about illegitimate children? Should proceeds be divided per capita or per stirpes? (easy question, but still)


This. It is a huge oversimplification to say "oh it is just all copy/paste mindless work". There may be a lot of copy/pasting, but you still have to know what is in the best interest of your particular client and what the fuck it all means. You need to know what the copying and pasting actually means and how it will effect your particular clients interests. If you don't, you will be an awful lawyer and probably commit malpractice. Estate planning has a very high malpractice rate. Do people really think that is just because a lawyer was terrible at copy/pasting? Just because you are not writing a 10 page memo from scratch does not mean you are not doing substantive work or that your services are not valued by the client.

relevant


lol I am not getting into a legalzoom argument again. Suffice it to say legalzoom is not completely replacing estate planners anymore than turbotax has replaced accountants.

I'm with you on this. legalzoom is perfectly fine at the really low end, with the caveat that generally those people don't need estate planning. It makes more sense for incorporation / partnership agreement, but that's about it.

If it was simply copy/paste, lawyers wouldn't be able to charge high fees. Hell, people wouldn't even need lawyers. But try figuring out the rule against perpetuities :?:

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SuperCerealBrah
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Re: Easiest Areas of Practice

Postby SuperCerealBrah » Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:58 pm

Dingbat:

Oh ok, I get you now. Yea, legalzoom is great for really simple, low end stuff for sure.

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dingbat
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Re: Easiest Areas of Practice

Postby dingbat » Fri Nov 09, 2012 12:23 am

SuperCerealBrah wrote:Dingbat:

Oh ok, I get you now. Yea, legalzoom is great for really simple, low end stuff for sure.

I've tangentially dealt with a number of estate plans including multiple countries, multiple trusts and trusts with internal firewalls. Saying it's simple is like saying math is simple - basic algebra might be easy, but trigonometry's a bitch

Gorki
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Re: Easiest Areas of Practice

Postby Gorki » Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:05 am

True/false: State courts are starting to out documents/work created by LegalZoom and friends?

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dextermorgan
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Re: Easiest Areas of Practice

Postby dextermorgan » Sat Nov 10, 2012 12:33 am

Gorki wrote:True/false: State courts are starting to out documents/work created by LegalZoom and friends?

Janson v. LegalZoom

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XxSpyKEx
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Re: Easiest Areas of Practice

Postby XxSpyKEx » Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:49 pm

barestin wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:If there was a such thing as an "easy" area of law that paid money, there would be 20,000 people fighting you for that job.


(Someone who has never worked ShitLaw). The reason there aren't 20,000 people doing it is because many law student graduates without prospects are either introverts, lack confidence, lack capital (which isn't much for starting a small office to begin with), inept at completing legal work, or some combination of these characteristics.


Also, a good number of people who go to law school (and become attorneys) are the types of people who want intellectually challenging work (rather than something that's repetitive, routine, and going to bore them to death).

I.P. Daly wrote:Space law.


Actually, this kid I clerked with was really into space law, and it sounded complex to me.. Really complex.

Easiest areas of practice are probably things like no-contest divorces and DUI pleas. My understanding is that, with enough volume, those can pretty lucrative practice areas.

dingbat wrote:
SuperCerealBrah wrote:Dingbat:

Oh ok, I get you now. Yea, legalzoom is great for really simple, low end stuff for sure.

I've tangentially dealt with a number of estate plans including multiple countries, multiple trusts and trusts with internal firewalls. Saying it's simple is like saying math is simple - basic algebra might be easy, but trigonometry's a bitch


No it's not lol... Terrible analogy.

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dingbat
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Re: Easiest Areas of Practice

Postby dingbat » Sat Nov 10, 2012 4:06 pm

XxSpyKEx wrote:
dingbat wrote:
SuperCerealBrah wrote:Dingbat:

Oh ok, I get you now. Yea, legalzoom is great for really simple, low end stuff for sure.

I've tangentially dealt with a number of estate plans including multiple countries, multiple trusts and trusts with internal firewalls. Saying it's simple is like saying math is simple - basic algebra might be easy, but trigonometry's a bitch


No it's not lol... Terrible analogy.

You're right, trig isn't that hard. Advanced Finite Math, on the other hand, is much harder. However, most people here have never heard of it and don't know what it means.

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JCFindley
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Re: Easiest Areas of Practice

Postby JCFindley » Sat Nov 10, 2012 4:12 pm

XxSpyKEx wrote:
barestin wrote:
vanwinkle wrote:If there was a such thing as an "easy" area of law that paid money, there would be 20,000 people fighting you for that job.


(Someone who has never worked ShitLaw). The reason there aren't 20,000 people doing it is because many law student graduates without prospects are either introverts, lack confidence, lack capital (which isn't much for starting a small office to begin with), inept at completing legal work, or some combination of these characteristics.


Also, a good number of people who go to law school (and become attorneys) are the types of people who want intellectually challenging work (rather than something that's repetitive, routine, and going to bore them to death).

I.P. Daly wrote:Space law.


Actually, this kid I clerked with was really into space law, and it sounded complex to me.. Really complex.

Easiest areas of practice are probably things like no-contest divorces and DUI pleas. My understanding is that, with enough volume, those can pretty lucrative practice areas.

dingbat wrote:
SuperCerealBrah wrote:Dingbat:

Oh ok, I get you now. Yea, legalzoom is great for really simple, low end stuff for sure.

I've tangentially dealt with a number of estate plans including multiple countries, multiple trusts and trusts with internal firewalls. Saying it's simple is like saying math is simple - basic algebra might be easy, but trigonometry's a bitch


No it's not lol... Terrible analogy.


This, but differential equations on the other hand....

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XxSpyKEx
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Re: Easiest Areas of Practice

Postby XxSpyKEx » Sat Nov 10, 2012 4:27 pm

dingbat wrote:
XxSpyKEx wrote:
dingbat wrote:
SuperCerealBrah wrote:Dingbat:

Oh ok, I get you now. Yea, legalzoom is great for really simple, low end stuff for sure.

I've tangentially dealt with a number of estate plans including multiple countries, multiple trusts and trusts with internal firewalls. Saying it's simple is like saying math is simple - basic algebra might be easy, but trigonometry's a bitch


No it's not lol... Terrible analogy.

You're right, trig isn't that hard. Advanced Finite Math, on the other hand, is much harder. However, most people here have never heard of it and don't know what it means.


Math that deals with finite numbers and is in some way "advanced"? lol. But my question is how "advanced" could math that deals solely with finite numbers really be? Personally, I prefer imaginary numbers 8)


[FYI- I'm fucking around, just in case you can't tell..]

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Teoeo
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Re: Easiest Areas of Practice

Postby Teoeo » Sat Nov 10, 2012 4:31 pm

I'll give a serious response:

Child Support Services. In California you can make like 140k doing completely mindless work with virtually no legal research or writing. I know someone who does this (the lawyers in her office don't even have lexis/westlaw).

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dingbat
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Re: Easiest Areas of Practice

Postby dingbat » Sat Nov 10, 2012 5:47 pm

XxSpyKEx wrote:Math that deals with finite numbers and is in some way "advanced"? lol. But my question is how "advanced" could math that deals solely with finite numbers really be? Personally, I prefer imaginary numbers 8)

Advanced Finite Math involves imaginary numbers. How else to solve √-1 ?

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barestin
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Re: Easiest Areas of Practice

Postby barestin » Sat Nov 10, 2012 5:50 pm

Teoeo wrote:I'll give a serious response:

Child Support Services. In California you can make like 140k doing completely mindless work with virtually no legal research or writing. I know someone who does this (the lawyers in her office don't even have lexis/westlaw).


Child Support Services law does not exist. Google told me.




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