Why are the bar pass rates in so many states so high?

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Gamecubesupreme
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Why are the bar pass rates in so many states so high?

Postby Gamecubesupreme » Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:51 am

I mean, I know most people wouldn't complain about this because it just means more people have a chance to pass the bar.

But with the current over-saturation of the legal market, why don't states slowly lower the pass rates so that not as many people pass the bar?

Maybe I am wrongly assuming that lowering the pass rates would solve the problem of over-saturation, but surely it wouldn't hurt, right?

I don't know, I just think that if only 10% of bar takers pass the exam, those who successfully pass the bar would not have such a difficult time finding a job.
Last edited by Gamecubesupreme on Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

V15 Associate
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Re: Why are the bar pass rates in so many states so high?

Postby V15 Associate » Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:52 am

Gamecubesupreme wrote:I mean, I know most people wouldn't complain about this because it just means more people have a chance to pass the bar.

But with the current over-saturation of the legal market, why don't states slowly lower the pass rates so that not as many people pass the bar?

Maybe I am wrongly assuming that lowering the pass rates won't necessarily solve the problem of over-saturation, but surely it wouldn't hurt, right?

I don't know, I just think that if only 10% of bar takers pass the exam, those who successfully pass the bar would not have such a difficult time finding a job.


Because stopping people from being a lawyer after they invested 3 years and a quarter million dollars is fucking retarded.

paulinaporizkova
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Re: Why are the bar pass rates in so many states so high?

Postby paulinaporizkova » Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:53 am

The bar would be the wrong place to build a dam.

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Gamecubesupreme
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Re: Why are the bar pass rates in so many states so high?

Postby Gamecubesupreme » Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:54 am

V15 Associate wrote:Because stopping people from being a lawyer after they invested 3 years and a quarter million dollars is fucking retarded.


If you don't think you can pass the bar, don't go to law school.

V15 Associate
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Re: Why are the bar pass rates in so many states so high?

Postby V15 Associate » Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:57 am

Gamecubesupreme wrote:
V15 Associate wrote:Because stopping people from being a lawyer after they invested 3 years and a quarter million dollars is fucking retarded.


If you don't think you can pass the bar, don't go to law school.


If you don't think you can get a job, don't go to law school.

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Gamecubesupreme
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Re: Why are the bar pass rates in so many states so high?

Postby Gamecubesupreme » Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:58 am

V15 Associate wrote:If you don't think you can get a job, don't go to law school.


Problem is law schools still release data where 90% of grads are employed upon graduation.

That is why no one thinks they would be unemployed.

patentlybored
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Re: Why are the bar pass rates in so many states so high?

Postby patentlybored » Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:59 am

paulinaporizkova wrote:The bar would be the wrong place to build a dam.

Dunno if I agree...I kind of like the op's idea. Not sure if it would deter more people from paying for ls (if it did hat would help with saturation), but even if it didn't, the people who don't pass knew what they were getting into and had it coming

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bk1
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Re: Why are the bar pass rates in so many states so high?

Postby bk1 » Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:00 am

V15 Associate wrote:
Gamecubesupreme wrote:
V15 Associate wrote:Because stopping people from being a lawyer after they invested 3 years and a quarter million dollars is fucking retarded.


If you don't think you can pass the bar, don't go to law school.


If you don't think you can get a job, don't go to law school.


Oh for fuck's sake DF, don't go alting. Take your ban like a man.

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Bildungsroman
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Re: Why are the bar pass rates in so many states so high?

Postby Bildungsroman » Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:04 am

patentlybored wrote:
paulinaporizkova wrote:The bar would be the wrong place to build a dam.

Dunno if I agree...I kind of like the op's idea. Not sure if it would deter more people from paying for ls (if it did hat would help with saturation), but even if it didn't, the people who don't pass knew what they were getting into and had it coming

GET THE FUCK OUT OF THE FORUM FOR LAW SCHOOL STUDENTS YOU GODDAMN 0L.

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dingbat
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Re: Why are the bar pass rates in so many states so high?

Postby dingbat » Sun Sep 09, 2012 1:23 am

Passage rates by state (LinkRemoved)
Damn glad I don't live in Palau

beardown_tho
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Re: Why are the bar pass rates in so many states so high?

Postby beardown_tho » Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:35 am

Gamecubesupreme wrote:I don't know, I just think that if only 10% of bar takers pass the exam, those who successfully pass the bar would not have such a difficult time finding a job.


I fail to see how this solves the problem of people with JDs not being able to find legal employment.

You're hoping that low bar passage rates would convince people not to go to law school, which is a super indirect/roundabout way to do this and would probably be wildly ineffective (especially when the cost of law school and the job prospects are already doing this).

NotMyRealName09
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Re: Why are the bar pass rates in so many states so high?

Postby NotMyRealName09 » Mon Sep 10, 2012 1:52 pm

Passage rates are set by state bars to regulate the number of new lawyers entering the market. Thus high demand markets will set their passage rate lower to attempt to control the flood of new lawyers. Its imperfect, but that's a general answer.

EDIT: Its not about discouraging people from entering the practice of law necessarily, just from entering the practice of law in State X.

Jacques_Bentley
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Re: Why are the bar pass rates in so many states so high?

Postby Jacques_Bentley » Tue Sep 11, 2012 12:51 am

NotMyRealName09 wrote:Passage rates are set by state bars to regulate the number of new lawyers entering the market. Thus high demand markets will set their passage rate lower to attempt to control the flood of new lawyers. Its imperfect, but that's a general answer.

EDIT: Its not about discouraging people from entering the practice of law necessarily, just from entering the practice of law in State X.


It's just a method of artificially restricting competition, akin to the practices of medieval trade guilds. Nothing less; nothing more.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barriers_to_entry

Slobberson
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Re: Why are the bar pass rates in so many states so high?

Postby Slobberson » Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:58 pm

patentlybored wrote:
paulinaporizkova wrote:The bar would be the wrong place to build a dam.

Dunno if I agree...I kind of like the op's idea. Not sure if it would deter more people from paying for ls (if it did hat would help with saturation), but even if it didn't, the people who don't pass knew what they were getting into and had it coming


It would be better for the bar to prevent people from getting into LS in the first place than it would be to allow them to take out giant loans and then screw them afterwards.

Gorki
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Re: Why are the bar pass rates in so many states so high?

Postby Gorki » Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:08 pm

Q for OP. Would you favor a system in which your LSAT score excludes you from law school admissions altogether (lets say anyone below a score of X cannot apply to an ABA law school altogether)? As brutal or strange as that sounds, to me it sounds far less brutal than leading 90% of law students through the incredibly expensive process from prepping for LSAT -> completing bar exam (about 4~5 years long) and then slamming the gate shut on their face.

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PDaddy
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Re: Why are the bar pass rates in so many states so high?

Postby PDaddy » Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:27 pm

Gamecubesupreme wrote:
V15 Associate wrote:Because stopping people from being a lawyer after they invested 3 years and a quarter million dollars is fucking retarded.


If you don't think you can pass the bar, don't go to law school.


When considered as a whole, your posts are internally inconsistent. Your original post indicates a belief that too many people are able to pass the bar and thus eligible to practice law - no doubt deserving jobs. The abundance of eligible lawyers shrinks the job pool, right?

Your response here suggests that those who can't pass the bar shouldn't even go to law school - let alone be allowed to practice - and that, accordingly, those who have been allowed to practice must have passed the bar. In other words, you DO believe that they system properly filters out those who do not have a right to practice law. The bar's only job is to filter out those who are prepared to practice from those who are. So what the fuck is your gripe?!

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PDaddy
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Re: Why are the bar pass rates in so many states so high?

Postby PDaddy » Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:32 pm

Gorki wrote:Q for OP. Would you favor a system in which your LSAT score excludes you from law school admissions altogether (lets say anyone below a score of X cannot apply to an ABA law school altogether)? As brutal or strange as that sounds, to me it sounds far less brutal than leading 90% of law students through the incredibly expensive process from prepping for LSAT -> completing bar exam (about 4~5 years long) and then slamming the gate shut on their face.


...and we know that favoring minimums on the LSAT would be absolutely draconian because the test sin't very predictive of the best law students, let alone the best lawyers. Furthermore, any LSAT minimum would obviate from consideration relevant accomplishments such as...oh...maintaining a fucking 4.0 throughout UG, serving the community, saving lives, serving your country, successfully running businesses and corporations, educating poor kids in under-served communities, etc.

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PDaddy
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Re: Why are the bar pass rates in so many states so high?

Postby PDaddy » Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:42 pm

Slobberson wrote:
patentlybored wrote:
paulinaporizkova wrote:The bar would be the wrong place to build a dam.

Dunno if I agree...I kind of like the op's idea. Not sure if it would deter more people from paying for ls (if it did hat would help with saturation), but even if it didn't, the people who don't pass knew what they were getting into and had it coming


It would be better for the bar to prevent people from getting into LS in the first place than it would be to allow them to take out giant loans and then screw them afterwards.


The system you all call for is already in place; it's called "ADMISSIONS".

The admissions staffers who get to know candidates via comprehensive examinations of their backgrounds are the only people qualified to make such decisions. I agree that the schools should shrink their classes - and that some schools should close (maybe 25%) - but the system is fine. What isn't working is a faulty LSAT exam that does nothing to predict which students make the best lawyers, as well as high tuition that precludes most graduates from serving needy communities.

Moreover, all lawyers should make high beginning salaries (uniform beginning salaries of $75-85K sounds about right) regardless of where they practice or who they serve. If a minimum salary could somehow be implemented, fewer lawyers would fight over the same urban, corporate law jobs. More attorneys would go practice the kinds of law they actually enjoy, and serve smaller cities and rural communities.

The other problem is middle-class conservatives who repeatedly elect irresponsible Presidents that put us in this economic mess...Presidents like George W. Bush! When are they going to learn...?

Gorki
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Re: Why are the bar pass rates in so many states so high?

Postby Gorki » Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:45 pm

PDaddy wrote:
Gorki wrote:Q for OP. Would you favor a system in which your LSAT score excludes you from law school admissions altogether (lets say anyone below a score of X cannot apply to an ABA law school altogether)? As brutal or strange as that sounds, to me it sounds far less brutal than leading 90% of law students through the incredibly expensive process from prepping for LSAT -> completing bar exam (about 4~5 years long) and then slamming the gate shut on their face.


...and we know that favoring minimums on the LSAT would be absolutely draconian because the test sin't very predictive of the best law students, let alone the best lawyers. Furthermore, any LSAT minimum would obviate from consideration relevant accomplishments such as...oh...maintaining a fucking 4.0 throughout UG, serving the community, saving lives, serving your country, successfully running businesses and corporations, educating poor kids in under-served communities, etc.


I was just hoping that by giving that analogy, it would show how ridiculous making the bar exam a bottleneck would be.

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TurtlesAllTheWayDown
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Re: Why are the bar pass rates in so many states so high?

Postby TurtlesAllTheWayDown » Wed Sep 12, 2012 3:49 pm

PDaddy wrote:...and we know that favoring minimums on the LSAT would be absolutely draconian because the test sin't very predictive of the best law students, let alone the best lawyers. Furthermore, any LSAT minimum would obviate from consideration relevant accomplishments such as...oh...maintaining a fucking 4.0 throughout UG, serving the community, saving lives, serving your country, successfully running businesses and corporations, educating poor kids in under-served communities, etc.


I question some of your word choices.

nigelfrost
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Re: Why are the bar pass rates in so many states so high?

Postby nigelfrost » Wed Sep 12, 2012 4:04 pm

Let me complete this collective train of thought by going back to the most effective way to stem the legal market's bleeding:

Step 1: Congress' creation of an administrative body with primary accreditation and enforcement power over law schools
Step 2: Said body's freeze on all new accreditation and revocation of 1/2 to 2/3rds of all currently accredited law schools
Step 3: Publication by said body of universal admission, employment, and bar passage data for remaining law schools
Step 4: Administrative rulemaking mandating entering class sizes to 250-300 and freeze on tuition rates

Results in:
- Reduction in size of graduating classes from 40K new lawyers to around 20K-30K (market was saturated even before the recession)
- Reduction in size of law school faculty
- Centralizes and provides independent oversight of relevant data for prospective students
- Ends the self-policing system currently in force by the ABA

End thread.




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