OCI, what the heck?

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Icculus
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Re: OCI, what the heck?

Postby Icculus » Sun Aug 19, 2012 1:45 am

Sheffield wrote: To add to the concern are the opinions that 2Ls have a much harder go with OCI and 3Ls are in the deep. I would think that without the 2L/3L curve in play, grades should vastly improve but for whatever reason I have read that they do not carry the same weight.


I'm not sure I understand what this means.

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bk1
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Re: OCI, what the heck?

Postby bk1 » Sun Aug 19, 2012 1:51 am

You might be a terrible interviewer. You might be interviewing with firms that are too selective for you. You might be interviewing in areas where you are getting dinged for lack of ties... We don't fucking know.

The only things we do know are that you should have mass mailed, you should be hustling your ass off through hospitality suites/resume drops, and that OCI is not a guarantee even for someone above median.

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Sheffield
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Re: OCI, what the heck?

Postby Sheffield » Sun Aug 19, 2012 2:11 am

Icculus wrote:
Sheffield wrote: To add to the concern are the opinions that 2Ls have a much harder go with OCI and 3Ls are in the deep. I would think that without the 2L/3L curve in play, grades should vastly improve but for whatever reason I have read that they do not carry the same weight.


I'm not sure I understand what this means.

Perhaps a better way to ask. Let's say nothing pans out this OCI go around. Flash forward a year. Assuming my median grades improve (IMO they should since there is no curve), is my OCI situation more difficult as a rising 3L (a year from now)?

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Icculus
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Re: OCI, what the heck?

Postby Icculus » Sun Aug 19, 2012 2:18 am

Sheffield wrote:
Icculus wrote:
Sheffield wrote: To add to the concern are the opinions that 2Ls have a much harder go with OCI and 3Ls are in the deep. I would think that without the 2L/3L curve in play, grades should vastly improve but for whatever reason I have read that they do not carry the same weight.


I'm not sure I understand what this means.

Perhaps a better way to ask. Let's say nothing pans out this OCI go around. Flash forward a year. Assuming my median grades improve (IMO they should since there is no curve), is my OCI situation more difficult as a rising 3L (a year from now)?


Based purely on anecdotal evidence, yes, your search will be harder than now for several reasons. The number one reason is that most firms don't offer a 3L OCI. Really if you don't secure a 2L SA you're most likely going to need to pass the bar, mass mail, and hope for interviews which is how the vast majority of law students find jobs. Plus the odds of getting a biglaw job if you don't secure a 2L SA are very small. It's why it's so important to maximize screeners, mass mail, and work on interview skills for 2L OCI.

Edit: Typos, too many typos.

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Sheffield
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Re: OCI, what the heck?

Postby Sheffield » Sun Aug 19, 2012 2:25 am

bk1 wrote:You might be a terrible interviewer. You might be interviewing with firms that are too selective for you. You might be interviewing in areas where you are getting dinged for lack of ties... We don't fucking know.

The only things we do know are that you should have mass mailed, you should be hustling your ass off through hospitality suites/resume drops, and that OCI is not a guarantee even for someone above median.

Understood. If interviewing skills and bad bidding was a problem I would be fortunate to receive two callbacks. However, what I am hearing is that my classmates are only getting 1 or 2 callbacks (and a few still 0). I am asking the question that everyone I know (around top third to median with a journal) is asking, what the heck is going on?

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IAFG
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Re: OCI, what the heck?

Postby IAFG » Sun Aug 19, 2012 2:28 am

Sheffield wrote:
bk1 wrote:You might be a terrible interviewer. You might be interviewing with firms that are too selective for you. You might be interviewing in areas where you are getting dinged for lack of ties... We don't fucking know.

The only things we do know are that you should have mass mailed, you should be hustling your ass off through hospitality suites/resume drops, and that OCI is not a guarantee even for someone above median.

Understood. If interviewing skills and bad bidding was a problem I would be fortunate to receive two callbacks. However, what I am hearing is that my classmates are only getting 1 or 2 callbacks (and a few still 0). I am asking the question that everyone I know (around top third to median with a journal) is asking, what the heck is going on?

Is what's going on that you're at GULC?

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bk1
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Re: OCI, what the heck?

Postby bk1 » Sun Aug 19, 2012 2:35 am

Sheffield wrote:Understood. If interviewing skills and bad bidding was a problem I would be fortunate to receive two callbacks. However, what I am hearing is that my classmates are only getting 1 or 2 callbacks (and a few still 0). I am asking the question that everyone I know (around top third to median with a journal) is asking, what the heck is going on?


Unless you've gotten actual rejections, it's still very early. Chill.

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Sheffield
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Re: OCI, what the heck?

Postby Sheffield » Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:00 am

IAFG wrote:Is what's going on that you're at GULC?

No but since you mentioned GULC, turns out they have a forum here with a poll about the number of screeners (+17 screeners was mostly marked) and callbacks were pretty descent, around half said 5 to +7 and the other half polled between 0-3. Descriptions include “slaughter” and “silence.” Nevertheless, 5 to +7 is impressive.

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bk1
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Re: OCI, what the heck?

Postby bk1 » Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:00 am

Sheffield wrote:
IAFG wrote:Is what's going on that you're at GULC?

No but since you mentioned GULC, turns out they have a forum here with a poll about the number of screeners (+17 screeners was mostly marked) and callbacks were pretty descent, around half said 5 to +7 and the other half polled between 0-3. Descriptions include “slaughter” and “silence.” Nevertheless, 5 to +7 is impressive.

Do you know what self-selection is?

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Sheffield
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Re: OCI, what the heck?

Postby Sheffield » Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:05 am

bk1 wrote:Unless you've gotten actual rejections, it's still very early. Chill.

If the mailman checks out the letterhead she must think I am being sued by every legal firm in the country! Most are from mass mailings but the other half are from OCI (a few are emailed). I am trying to chill. . .you see how well that is working out, given I am at the keyboard in the wee hours.

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Sheffield
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Re: OCI, what the heck?

Postby Sheffield » Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:15 am

bk1 wrote:Do you know what self-selection is?

Maybe not (since I cannot define it). Familiar with bids/lottery, pre-screened and swaps.

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bk1
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Re: OCI, what the heck?

Postby bk1 » Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:36 am

Sheffield wrote:
bk1 wrote:Do you know what self-selection is?

Maybe not (since I cannot define it). Familiar with bids/lottery, pre-screened and swaps.

I was saying that people who get lots of screeners/CBs tend to self-select towards posting about it moreso than those who get fewer screeners/CBs.

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sunynp
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Re: OCI, what the heck?

Postby sunynp » Sun Aug 19, 2012 7:45 am

Getting a job is not like school admissions. Just having the right numbers doesn't get you in.

Don't take poll results seriously for something like this.
Also, we have no idea if hiring will be the same as last year.


My best advice is that you prepare like crazy and make those callbacks work. Do everything you can to sell yourself and get that job. Focus on that!

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JusticeHarlan
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Re: OCI, what the heck?

Postby JusticeHarlan » Sun Aug 19, 2012 8:10 am

Sheffield wrote:The importance of bidding is understood ―securing a couple of reaches, highlighting firms that make sense and a few considered safe[r], gov’t, etc.

First, gov't? You bid on gov't instead of firms? That seems like a tactical error. Gov't jobs can be obtained outside of OCI if you don't convert your firm opportunities.

Also, it's not just about grades. It's about class size, interview slots, ties, etc. What region(s) were you bidding on?

Point: If median T-14 classmates were knocking down a half dozen callbacks and I am only at 2, I could assume my bidding strategy was greatly flawed. However, only a handful of classmates are piling up 4 or 5 callbacks (given the feedback from our forum and personal contacts). When I scroll through the OCI threads on Top Law School from highly ranked T-14 schools, the issue concerning the lack of callbacks is appartent. Of course it is possible that people (like myself) are temporarily in panic mode.

You're skipping a step here. In your OP you said you got 25 screening interviews (and, as mentioned, the boost when you mass mail). Going 2 out of 25 probably goes beyond bidding, or the lottery, or anything other than what happens in those interview rooms. Honestly, it seems hard to blame your school for that. Yet what you also said in your OP was:
To reiterate, giving up near full rides for 2 callbacks.

This makes me think you've got a flawed idea of how this works. You gave up a full ride for 25 first round interviews. What you do from there is up to you. The vast majority of students at the school you would have taken a full ride at wouldn't get that many interviews, probably less than half that. And if you're conversation rate was less than 10% to callbacks, well you may not have had any at another school.

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Sheffield
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Re: OCI, what the heck?

Postby Sheffield » Sun Aug 19, 2012 1:25 pm

Justice H. I do not know how to do the fancy thread cut-ins, so permit me to answer as such.

My interpretation of gov’t was PD/DA (so far response is silence).

Class under 300. Screeners are mainly representing Northeast offices (occasionally other regions are discussed). Broad net on mass mail (especially places with ties) except the west coast.

And no, I do not fault the school for my failure to score well above median, nor are they responsible for ITE. As noted several times, other options may have provided fewer screeners and callbacks, I believe this scenario is called, caught between a rock and a hard place.

I shall take the advice of an earlier poster and focus on the callbacks I have coming up (should not be hard with only two) and stop fixating on why invites are not piling up in my inbox.

dissonance1848
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Re: OCI, what the heck?

Postby dissonance1848 » Sun Aug 19, 2012 1:30 pm

Is Sheffield at Cornell or Penn?

TLSwag
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Re: OCI, what the heck?

Postby TLSwag » Sun Aug 19, 2012 3:45 pm

bk1 wrote:
Sheffield wrote:
IAFG wrote:Is what's going on that you're at GULC?

No but since you mentioned GULC, turns out they have a forum here with a poll about the number of screeners (+17 screeners was mostly marked) and callbacks were pretty descent, around half said 5 to +7 and the other half polled between 0-3. Descriptions include “slaughter” and “silence.” Nevertheless, 5 to +7 is impressive.

Do you know what self-selection is?


haha this. literally a flawless example of self-selection. got your gunnaz boasting on TLS about their success and the sorry souls in dire panic mode posting about their regrets.

r6_philly
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Re: OCI, what the heck?

Postby r6_philly » Sun Aug 19, 2012 5:56 pm

dissonance1848 wrote:Is Sheffield at Cornell or Penn?


Penn OCI is not even half over yet, and many people have only silence so far.

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JusticeHarlan
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Re: OCI, what the heck?

Postby JusticeHarlan » Sun Aug 19, 2012 9:57 pm

JusticeHarlan wrote:Also, it's not just about grades. It's about class size, interview slots, ties, etc.

Sheffield wrote:Class under 300.


Ok, either trolling or completely doesn't understand bidding.

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Sheffield
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Re: OCI, what the heck?

Postby Sheffield » Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:53 pm

JusticeHarlan wrote:
JusticeHarlan wrote:Also, it's not just about grades. It's about class size, interview slots, ties, etc.

Sheffield wrote:Class under 300.


Ok, either trolling or completely doesn't understand bidding.

Thanks for all your opinions, but we apparently cannot communicate. No problem.

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Sheffield
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Re: OCI, what the heck?

Postby Sheffield » Mon Aug 20, 2012 4:59 pm

r6_philly wrote:Penn OCI is not even half over yet, and many people have only silence so far.

The silence was broken thrice this afternoon. One good, two not so much. Best of Luck on your second half!

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rayiner
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Re: OCI, what the heck?

Postby rayiner » Mon Aug 20, 2012 5:20 pm

JusticeHarlan wrote:
Sheffield wrote:The importance of bidding is understood ―securing a couple of reaches, highlighting firms that make sense and a few considered safe[r], gov’t, etc.

First, gov't? You bid on gov't instead of firms? That seems like a tactical error. Gov't jobs can be obtained outside of OCI if you don't convert your firm opportunities.

Also, it's not just about grades. It's about class size, interview slots, ties, etc. What region(s) were you bidding on?

Point: If median T-14 classmates were knocking down a half dozen callbacks and I am only at 2, I could assume my bidding strategy was greatly flawed. However, only a handful of classmates are piling up 4 or 5 callbacks (given the feedback from our forum and personal contacts). When I scroll through the OCI threads on Top Law School from highly ranked T-14 schools, the issue concerning the lack of callbacks is appartent. Of course it is possible that people (like myself) are temporarily in panic mode.

You're skipping a step here. In your OP you said you got 25 screening interviews (and, as mentioned, the boost when you mass mail). Going 2 out of 25 probably goes beyond bidding, or the lottery, or anything other than what happens in those interview rooms. Honestly, it seems hard to blame your school for that. Yet what you also said in your OP was:
To reiterate, giving up near full rides for 2 callbacks.

This makes me think you've got a flawed idea of how this works. You gave up a full ride for 25 first round interviews. What you do from there is up to you. The vast majority of students at the school you would have taken a full ride at wouldn't get that many interviews, probably less than half that. And if you're conversation rate was less than 10% to callbacks, well you may not have had any at another school.


This is credited. You gave up two full rides for the 25 screeners. Slightly above median at T50 would've gotten you maybe 5.

Also, one of the big differences between ITE and pre-ITE is number of callbacks. Medianish (middle 50%) people at lower T14 used to get 5+. Now, 2-3 is pretty typical depending on interview skills. Statistically, you can expect 2-3 callbacks to turn into an offer, but it can be somewhat random.

My observaion is that even if most of the class still gets big law, only the top 1/3 or so of the class piles on the callbacks while the rest eke out an offer from 2-3.

r6_philly
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Re: OCI, what the heck?

Postby r6_philly » Mon Aug 20, 2012 6:04 pm

rayiner wrote:Also, one of the big differences between ITE and pre-ITE is number of callbacks. Medianish (middle 50%) people at lower T14 used to get 5+. Now, 2-3 is pretty typical depending on interview skills. Statistically, you can expect 2-3 callbacks to turn into an offer, but it can be somewhat random.

My observaion is that even if most of the class still gets big law, only the top 1/3 or so of the class piles on the callbacks while the rest eke out an offer from 2-3.


This is spot on based on what I have seen. This year may actually be tougher than last. Maybe firms over hired again last year (not like pre-ITE, but maybe still over projected by a bit).

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Tanicius
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Re: OCI, what the heck?

Postby Tanicius » Mon Aug 20, 2012 7:05 pm

r6_philly wrote:
rayiner wrote:Also, one of the big differences between ITE and pre-ITE is number of callbacks. Medianish (middle 50%) people at lower T14 used to get 5+. Now, 2-3 is pretty typical depending on interview skills. Statistically, you can expect 2-3 callbacks to turn into an offer, but it can be somewhat random.

My observaion is that even if most of the class still gets big law, only the top 1/3 or so of the class piles on the callbacks while the rest eke out an offer from 2-3.


This is spot on based on what I have seen. This year may actually be tougher than last. Maybe firms over hired again last year (not like pre-ITE, but maybe still over projected by a bit).


Seriously? This is really surprising to me. Everyone seems to have a ton or zero, with very few exceptions. Virtually everyone I know who's gotten callbacks has at least half a dozen. I'm lagging way behind at two. A friend of mine has one.

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IAFG
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Re: OCI, what the heck?

Postby IAFG » Mon Aug 20, 2012 8:13 pm

Tanicius wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
rayiner wrote:Also, one of the big differences between ITE and pre-ITE is number of callbacks. Medianish (middle 50%) people at lower T14 used to get 5+. Now, 2-3 is pretty typical depending on interview skills. Statistically, you can expect 2-3 callbacks to turn into an offer, but it can be somewhat random.

My observaion is that even if most of the class still gets big law, only the top 1/3 or so of the class piles on the callbacks while the rest eke out an offer from 2-3.


This is spot on based on what I have seen. This year may actually be tougher than last. Maybe firms over hired again last year (not like pre-ITE, but maybe still over projected by a bit).


Seriously? This is really surprising to me. Everyone seems to have a ton or zero, with very few exceptions. Virtually everyone I know who's gotten callbacks has at least half a dozen. I'm lagging way behind at two. A friend of mine has one.

It's pretty normal to get the sense that OCI is feast or famine.




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