Part-timers being combine rank wise with Full Time....

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darkatillam2
Posts: 207
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 1:40 pm

Part-timers being combine rank wise with Full Time....

Postby darkatillam2 » Wed Jul 25, 2012 5:53 pm

I'm sure this is probably school specific, but can someone help me with this.

I'll be attending a higher T2 next month and from what I've heard (not 100% sure on this, but pretty sure), that the school will now combine part-timers 2nd year GPA (considered 1L I believe) with full time 1Ls. I don't really see how this is fair (especially from a transfer standpoint), because there is such a huge discrepancy in GPA difference between PTs and FTs.

I went to my school's website and the top 10% FT 1L GPA is: 3.63

Now the PT 1L GPA cutoff for top 10% is: 3.96

From what I've been told we have to compete with the PTer's rank wise, so I fail to see how this is fair. I would really like to transfer if possible, and it would seriously piss me off if I made top 10% in my FT slot, only to be knocked down a crap ton of spaces because some PTer's have higher GPAs. It's important to note I am making an assumption here that it is easier for PTer's to get higher GPAs than FTer's. Based on the stats, and thinking logically about how much more time PTer's get with their studies, I think it's a solid assumption.

Is there something I am missing? Or am I justified in feeling that this isn't fair.

lawyerdown27
Posts: 71
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2012 1:21 pm

Re: Part-timers being combine rank wise with Full Time....

Postby lawyerdown27 » Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:12 pm

I went to my school's website and the top 10% FT 1L GPA is: 3.63

Now the PT 1L GPA cutoff for top 10% is: 3.96


Holy lord that is quite a discrepancy. But to be fair, the top 10% of a PT program may encompass a very low number of students (like say, 4 out of approx. 40 students) whereas top 10% of a FT program will undoubtedly encompass more. So there could be 4 or 5 PT students killing it. But they should also invariably deal with a mandatory mean or some other curve equivalent to that of the FT class, right? So I would guess that their grade distribution should resemble that of the FT students in your class, with more people on the bell of the curve, which is below you anyway.

As for your assumptions about PT being easier to get higher grades by virtue of either a smaller pool of students or more time to study, it all depends on the school. If the PT program is made up of students who don't have FT jobs/families/etc., then yes maybe. But if most PT students are 40 hour/week working professionals, then maybe not. I think ours is a mix of the two, so it's hard to say. (combined with the fact that we never see their rankings separate from the FT students - At my T2, PT'ers are ranked with the FT'ers when they have completed all the courses of the FT 1L year, with no separate rankings in the interim.)

One more thing to consider: PT students may be, but aren't always, competing for the same jobs at FT students, like firm jobs. So all things considered, there may not be as much competition as you think. Now, if you're right on the fringe of top 10% and you get knocked down a few spots, that just sucks. And it may be "unfair" to a certain degree, but not grossly unfair I wouldn't think. There's simply no other way around doing it outside of giving the PT'ers a separate stigma when it comes to their rankings, possibly prejudicing them in the eyes of employers. HTH

Gunna4Life
Posts: 36
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:15 pm

Re: Part-timers being combine rank wise with Full Time....

Postby Gunna4Life » Wed Jul 25, 2012 6:17 pm

darkatillam2 wrote:I'm sure this is probably school specific, but can someone help me with this.

I'll be attending a higher T2 next month and from what I've heard (not 100% sure on this, but pretty sure), that the school will now combine part-timers 2nd year GPA (considered 1L I believe) with full time 1Ls. I don't really see how this is fair (especially from a transfer standpoint), because there is such a huge discrepancy in GPA difference between PTs and FTs.

I went to my school's website and the top 10% FT 1L GPA is: 3.63

Now the PT 1L GPA cutoff for top 10% is: 3.96

From what I've been told we have to compete with the PTer's rank wise, so I fail to see how this is fair. I would really like to transfer if possible, and it would seriously piss me off if I made top 10% in my FT slot, only to be knocked down a crap ton of spaces because some PTer's have higher GPAs. It's important to note I am making an assumption here that it is easier for PTer's to get higher GPAs than FTer's. Based on the stats, and thinking logically about how much more time PTer's get with their studies, I think it's a solid assumption.

Is there something I am missing? Or am I justified in feeling that this isn't fair.


Don't worry about it. Rank isn't that important for transferring anyways. HTH

darkatillam2
Posts: 207
Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2011 1:40 pm

Re: Part-timers being combine rank wise with Full Time....

Postby darkatillam2 » Wed Jul 25, 2012 7:14 pm

lawyerdown27 wrote:
I went to my school's website and the top 10% FT 1L GPA is: 3.63

Now the PT 1L GPA cutoff for top 10% is: 3.96


Holy lord that is quite a discrepancy. But to be fair, the top 10% of a PT program may encompass a very low number of students (like say, 4 out of approx. 40 students) whereas top 10% of a FT program will undoubtedly encompass more. So there could be 4 or 5 PT students killing it. But they should also invariably deal with a mandatory mean or some other curve equivalent to that of the FT class, right? So I would guess that their grade distribution should resemble that of the FT students in your class, with more people on the bell of the curve, which is below you anyway.

As for your assumptions about PT being easier to get higher grades by virtue of either a smaller pool of students or more time to study, it all depends on the school. If the PT program is made up of students who don't have FT jobs/families/etc., then yes maybe. But if most PT students are 40 hour/week working professionals, then maybe not. I think ours is a mix of the two, so it's hard to say. (combined with the fact that we never see their rankings separate from the FT students - At my T2, PT'ers are ranked with the FT'ers when they have completed all the courses of the FT 1L year, with no separate rankings in the interim.)

One more thing to consider: PT students may be, but aren't always, competing for the same jobs at FT students, like firm jobs. So all things considered, there may not be as much competition as you think. Now, if you're right on the fringe of top 10% and you get knocked down a few spots, that just sucks. And it may be "unfair" to a certain degree, but not grossly unfair I wouldn't think. There's simply no other way around doing it outside of giving the PT'ers a separate stigma when it comes to their rankings, possibly prejudicing them in the eyes of employers. HTH



You bring up an interesting point about the outside workload of PT students, but based on the stats from my school, it really would seem they have it easier. All of their breakdowns for the last 5 years indicate they have higher GPA cutoffs in relation to their top 10% / 25% / 33% /50%. The GPA discrepancy is closer to the FTers when you start chopping it up like that, but the PT GPA's are still always higher in every category. For some reason, the top 10% discrepancy is always much larger than the others.


And rank (~grades) is everything when it comes to transferring.

Relevant: viewtopic.php?f=27&t=82937

nouseforaname123
Posts: 336
Joined: Sun Feb 07, 2010 12:32 pm

Re: Part-timers being combine rank wise with Full Time....

Postby nouseforaname123 » Wed Jul 25, 2012 9:29 pm

darkatillam2 wrote:You bring up an interesting point about the outside workload of PT students, but based on the stats from my school, it really would seem they have it easier. All of their breakdowns for the last 5 years indicate they have higher GPA cutoffs in relation to their top 10% / 25% / 33% /50%. The GPA discrepancy is closer to the FTers when you start chopping it up like that, but the PT GPA's are still always higher in every category. For some reason, the top 10% discrepancy is always much larger than the others.



Assuming your school's PT program operates under the same grading policy as the FT program, the distributions don't necessarily mean PT is easier. All the distributions are telling you is a relatively smaller percentage of students in the PT-program are hoarding all the best grades.

Think of it this way. Assume the FT program gets 6 grades a semester and the PT program gets 4.

Roughly speaking, in the FT program, you'll need some combination of 4 As + 2 other respectable grades to land in the Top 10%. In the PT program, it might be that a student needs some combination of 3 As + 1 other respectable grade to land in the Top 10%.

The top students in the PT program could be hoarding the best grades for a number of reasons. It's probably some combination of the following factors (and some that I can't think of).

*Generally speaking, the PT-program will have older, more mature students. There will be a handful of people in the PT-program who are very disciplined and will outperform everybody by being more focused.
*There will be more variance in the LSAT and undergrad GPAs in the PT-program (perhaps this means it is easier).
*There will probably be a handful of students in the PT program who are overqualified for your school. They will have killer LSAT scores, but due to family and work responsibilities, they chose to attend your T2.

Assuming you have the same curve and teachers, I'm not exactly sure why this is bothering you so much. You're all class of 2015 at your law school, and my guess is that graduating class ranks are based on the entire school.

rogermurdoch
Posts: 34
Joined: Wed Oct 26, 2011 2:07 pm

Re: Part-timers being combine rank wise with Full Time....

Postby rogermurdoch » Thu Jul 26, 2012 11:10 am

darkatillam2 wrote:I'm sIt's important to note I am making an assumption here that it is easier for PTer's to get higher GPAs than FTer's. Based on the stats, and thinking logically about how much more time PTer's get with their studies, I think it's a solid assumption.

Is there something I am missing? Or am I justified in feeling that this isn't fair.

A few things to consider:

-As someone else mentioned, there is more variance in the PT class. I don't know the exact numbers, but the top 10% of the PT class at my school probably has LSAT/GPA numbers well above the top 10% for FT students. They didn't want to leave their job so they chose the school for its location.

-Are PT students in their own section? At my school, all of the PT classes are in the evening. I was in a PT class with only a handful of FT students. If they are segregated then they are only competing against themselves.

-Just because they take fewer credits does not mean they have more time to study. At my school, the overwhelming majority of PT students have full-time jobs. You really can't study during the week when you work 9-5 and go to school 3-4 nights each week from 6-9pm. That leaves the weekend to study, which for a lot of people is the only time they can see their family or hang out with friends. A lot of those who don't have jobs are stay at home moms/dads with babies or toddlers. It's hard for these people to get meaningful studying done when they have children screaming and crying all day.

-There are definitely people who do not have jobs or kids and go to school PT. At my school, this was probably less than 10% of the PT class. The majority of these people were marginal candidates who didn't have a high enough GPA/LSAT to get in FT. Some of them were just lazy and wanted to take fewer credits. These people did not finish in the top of the class. You really don't have any hyper-gunners who are trying to game the system. Maybe other schools are different, though.

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taxnstuff
Posts: 134
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Re: Part-timers being combine rank wise with Full Time....

Postby taxnstuff » Fri Jul 27, 2012 3:08 pm

Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!




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