How do Splitters Perform Once in Law School?

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brose
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Re: How do Splitters Perform Once in Law School?

Postby brose » Tue Jul 10, 2012 5:58 pm

I was a low LSAT/high GPA and finished high. I think it's a combo of luck/work habit/curve.... which means... learn how to take a law school exam. :)

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androstan
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Re: How do Splitters Perform Once in Law School?

Postby androstan » Tue Jul 10, 2012 6:00 pm

I think the performance of high LSAT splitters has to do with the degree to which they have "reformed." Most of us (I had a 2.9) slacked off and/or screwed around too much. If that's still your attitude and maturity level, you will likely perform about as well as your UGPA+LSAT aggregate predicts. If you've grown up, you'll probably perform about as your LSAT predicts. I'm mostly reformed, got an LSAT a little above the 75th percentile at the school I attend, and am performing about on par with that. My UGPA+LSAT aggregate would have me near the bottom of the class, though.

For high GPA splitters (so-called "reverse splitters") it's a question of what their numbers represent. The more competitive your UG sool/program and the less they grade-inflate, the more your UGPA indicates you can grind out the long study hours to produce high grades. The harder you had to prep for a relatively low LSAT, the more it indicates you have difficulty working under the pressure of severe time-constraints. The main point is, for reverse splitters, not much usually changes between UG and LS, whereas regular splitters often "clean up their act" and perform better. Of course, some don't.

Disclaimer: Statistically the correlation between LSAT and LS grades is weak but not insignificant. Statistically the correlation between UGPA and LS grades is even weaker, but still not insignificant. The correlation between LSAT+UGPA aggregate is a bit tighter, but still with plenty of scatter. Both metrics have inherent problems. The LSAT shows bias amongst races, even when accounting for SES, and the reason(s) is/are unknown. UGPA varies wildly depending on the the school, the major, the individual professor, and if you forgot to set your alarm the morning of your final.

timetoleave
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Re: How do Splitters Perform Once in Law School?

Postby timetoleave » Tue Jul 10, 2012 6:24 pm

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Last edited by timetoleave on Fri Jul 13, 2012 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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YYZ
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Re: How do Splitters Perform Once in Law School?

Postby YYZ » Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:09 pm

I believe the LSAC or ABA publishes data each year on the correlation between LSAT score and UGPA and 1L grades. I haven't looked at it for quite some time, but I think it showed that LSAT and UGPA were both good indicators of 1L grades with LSAT being a slightly better indicator (i.e. higher LSAT = better grades).

However, I think that people with lower LSAT or lower UGPA tend to overcome weaknesses by working with others in the class to master the material. It seems that people in class tend to "hear" the material slightly differently. Or, you may have a hard time keeping up with the professor during the lecture. If so, you can overcome this by working with others in the class. It's a good idea to compare your class notes with at least one other person and collectively come to a consensus on what the prof was trying to say. If the study group reaches no consensus on a particular point, you can then ask the prof for clarification. Even the "smartest" person in the study group/study pair will benefit by teaching the material to the other people who need help.

If you work efficiently with others to master the material, prepare a good outline, and master the outline, I think you're in a good position to do well on the exam. From there, your ability to spot the issues (i.e. the important issues according to the prof) and write convincing arguments on both sides of the argument will most likely determine your grade. There is no substitute for studying smart and efficiently.

Just my opinion after the first year.

smittytron3k
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Re: How do Splitters Perform Once in Law School?

Postby smittytron3k » Tue Jul 10, 2012 8:11 pm

Very good friend from college was 3.4/180 and is currently in the top 2-3% at NYU after 1L. Then again, another very good friend from college was a reverse splitter (4.1/170) and barely missed Kent at CLS. Not sure that this proves anything other than that unbalanced applicants can do super well in law school.

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Icculus
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Re: How do Splitters Perform Once in Law School?

Postby Icculus » Tue Jul 10, 2012 8:18 pm

brose wrote:learn how to take a law school exam. :)


This is really the most important part.

ahnhub
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Re: How do Splitters Perform Once in Law School?

Postby ahnhub » Tue Jul 10, 2012 8:19 pm

Kring345 wrote:
abc12345675 wrote:High GPA, low LSAT though is questionable to me. Could be a product of easy undergrad, hard worker, but lower intelligence

To be honest, this is me, and, as a result, Im kinda shitting my pants getting ready for CLS. Though still probably well above average compared to the general population, I dont have a lot of pure, raw brain power. Everything Ive accomplished in life (albeit a lot of good stuff) has been the direct result of hard work and "caring" more than most people.


Just read some of the posts by TLS morons who aced the LSAT. It'll make you feel better. It def helps me.

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Stringer6
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Re: How do Splitters Perform Once in Law School?

Postby Stringer6 » Tue Jul 10, 2012 8:29 pm

smittytron3k wrote:Very good friend from college was 3.4/180 and is currently in the top 2-3% at NYU after 1L. Then again, another very good friend from college was a reverse splitter (4.1/170) and barely missed Kent at CLS. Not sure that this proves anything other than that unbalanced applicants can do super well in law school.

4.1/170 is a splitter?

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dpk711
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Re: How do Splitters Perform Once in Law School?

Postby dpk711 » Tue Jul 10, 2012 8:31 pm

Stringer6 wrote:
smittytron3k wrote:Very good friend from college was 3.4/180 and is currently in the top 2-3% at NYU after 1L. Then again, another very good friend from college was a reverse splitter (4.1/170) and barely missed Kent at CLS. Not sure that this proves anything other than that unbalanced applicants can do super well in law school.

4.1/170 is a splitter?

By definition I don't think it is. The 25th for CLS is 170.

ahnhub
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Re: How do Splitters Perform Once in Law School?

Postby ahnhub » Tue Jul 10, 2012 8:33 pm

Stringer6 wrote:
smittytron3k wrote:Very good friend from college was 3.4/180 and is currently in the top 2-3% at NYU after 1L. Then again, another very good friend from college was a reverse splitter (4.1/170) and barely missed Kent at CLS. Not sure that this proves anything other than that unbalanced applicants can do super well in law school.

4.1/170 is a splitter?


Maybe at Columbia, but still, CLS is probably not a great example because 90% of the class has 170+. A school which takes lots of both splitters and reverse splitters, like UVA, might be a better test case.

HeavenWood
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Re: How do Splitters Perform Once in Law School?

Postby HeavenWood » Wed Jul 11, 2012 3:22 pm

dpk711 wrote:These are just people I know in law school so take it with a grain of salt. Most of the splitters I know (myself included) did above median their 1L year. The reverse-splitters I know though haven't fared as well. Again, I don't want to generalize, but it's a trend I've noticed at least among classmates I know.

You're more of a semi-splitter (who got in RD, at that), so lumping yourself in with the 170+s close to a 3.0 who snuck in the ED side door doesn't make much sense.

To throw in more anecdotal evidence, among the people I've discussed grades/numbers with, I haven't seen much of a correlation between LSAT/GPA and law school success. After all, most of us hover in the same LSAT ballpark. I wouldn't put money on a 171/3.2 outperforming a 167/4.0 (or vice versa). It's only when you get to people who score leaps and bounds below the median that score differences really start to mean something.

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spleenworship
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Re: How do Splitters Perform Once in Law School?

Postby spleenworship » Thu Jul 12, 2012 8:10 pm

I was a splitter with a LSAT above my school's 75% and a GPA right at my school's 25%. I was top third at the end of 1L.

I know a reverse splitter who had a 4.0 and a below my school's median LSAT who is bottom 10%.

Anecdotal, but it seems to be the story across the board.

shock259
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Re: How do Splitters Perform Once in Law School?

Postby shock259 » Thu Jul 12, 2012 9:16 pm

Interesting question, but nothing but no real way to answer it (except for anecdotes and musings).

I was a splitter and I performed well. But I hit the ground running and studied about 1000 times harder than I did in undergrad.

HeavenWood
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Re: How do Splitters Perform Once in Law School?

Postby HeavenWood » Fri Jul 13, 2012 12:24 am

spleenworship wrote:I was a splitter with a LSAT above my school's 75% and a GPA right at my school's 25%. I was top third at the end of 1L.

I know a reverse splitter who had a 4.0 and a below my school's median LSAT who is bottom 10%.

Anecdotal, but it seems to be the story across the board.

How far below the median though?

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queenlizzie13
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Re: How do Splitters Perform Once in Law School?

Postby queenlizzie13 » Fri Jul 13, 2012 12:33 am

Reverse splitter who did well. I traditionally do bad on standardized tests though. Still, I think as long as you are a similar range, LSAT score wise, you can do well. There's a lot more factors at play here.

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FlanAl
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Re: How do Splitters Perform Once in Law School?

Postby FlanAl » Fri Jul 13, 2012 1:18 am

I know at least one splitter who didn't do super well.

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JoeFish
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Re: How do Splitters Perform Once in Law School?

Postby JoeFish » Fri Jul 13, 2012 1:36 am

Probably about exactly as well as non-splitters. Or, my guess (based on extremely simplistic reasoning) is that, since they were generally at opposite extremes of the two possible indicators, they have the same median but are more spread out about that median.

For what it's worth, I know of at least one splitter who did well by working really really hard, and at least one splitter who did well by doing almost no work and coasting by on natural ability. I basically only know the general performance of about 5 people total, so I really can't provide more than a couple isolated data points.

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spleenworship
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Re: How do Splitters Perform Once in Law School?

Postby spleenworship » Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:56 am

HeavenWood wrote:
spleenworship wrote:I was a splitter with a LSAT above my school's 75% and a GPA right at my school's 25%. I was top third at the end of 1L.

I know a reverse splitter who had a 4.0 and a below my school's median LSAT who is bottom 10%.

Anecdotal, but it seems to be the story across the board.

How far below the median though?



On academic probation. A 1.9 GPA I believe. So nearly 1.0 below median.

HeavenWood
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Re: How do Splitters Perform Once in Law School?

Postby HeavenWood » Fri Jul 13, 2012 11:59 am

spleenworship wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:
spleenworship wrote:I was a splitter with a LSAT above my school's 75% and a GPA right at my school's 25%. I was top third at the end of 1L.

I know a reverse splitter who had a 4.0 and a below my school's median LSAT who is bottom 10%.

Anecdotal, but it seems to be the story across the board.

How far below the median though?



On academic probation. A 1.9 GPA I believe. So nearly 1.0 below median.

I meant how far below the LSAT median.

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spleenworship
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Re: How do Splitters Perform Once in Law School?

Postby spleenworship » Fri Jul 13, 2012 2:11 pm

HeavenWood wrote:
spleenworship wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:
spleenworship wrote:I was a splitter with a LSAT above my school's 75% and a GPA right at my school's 25%. I was top third at the end of 1L.

I know a reverse splitter who had a 4.0 and a below my school's median LSAT who is bottom 10%.

Anecdotal, but it seems to be the story across the board.

How far below the median though?



On academic probation. A 1.9 GPA I believe. So nearly 1.0 below median.

I meant how far below the LSAT median.


Ah. 6 points. And our median that year was in the 150s.

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shepdawg
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Re: How do Splitters Perform Once in Law School?

Postby shepdawg » Sat Jul 14, 2012 11:25 pm

I know someone who had a high gpa and a very bad LSAT, and am top 2% as a 3L. I think hard work combined with the ability to cope with stress can overcome being stupid.

HeavenWood
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Re: How do Splitters Perform Once in Law School?

Postby HeavenWood » Sun Jul 15, 2012 12:33 am

shepdawg wrote:I know someone who had a high gpa and a very bad LSAT, and am top 2% as a 3L. I think hard work combined with the ability to cope with stress can overcome being stupid.

Or maybe not everyone who scores lower on the LSAT is stupid (and vise versa).

LiberalLaw
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Re: How do Splitters Perform Once in Law School?

Postby LiberalLaw » Sun Jul 15, 2012 2:19 am

My own preformance: top half on LSAT and top ten percent of class after 1L.

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Icculus
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Re: How do Splitters Perform Once in Law School?

Postby Icculus » Sun Jul 15, 2012 5:05 am

spleenworship wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:
spleenworship wrote:I was a splitter with a LSAT above my school's 75% and a GPA right at my school's 25%. I was top third at the end of 1L.

I know a reverse splitter who had a 4.0 and a below my school's median LSAT who is bottom 10%.

Anecdotal, but it seems to be the story across the board.

How far below the median though?



On academic probation. A 1.9 GPA I believe. So nearly 1.0 below median.


Please tell me he/she is considering dropping out.

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spleenworship
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Re: How do Splitters Perform Once in Law School?

Postby spleenworship » Mon Jul 16, 2012 1:57 pm

Icculus wrote:
spleenworship wrote:
HeavenWood wrote:
spleenworship wrote:I was a splitter with a LSAT above my school's 75% and a GPA right at my school's 25%. I was top third at the end of 1L.

I know a reverse splitter who had a 4.0 and a below my school's median LSAT who is bottom 10%.

Anecdotal, but it seems to be the story across the board.

How far below the median though?



On academic probation. A 1.9 GPA I believe. So nearly 1.0 below median.


Please tell me he/she is considering dropping out.


Nope. Also doesn't want to be an attorney.

In their defense, they have full ride that is in no way GPA dependant.




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