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 Post subject: Re: Dropped out of a T14 law school, ask me anything
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:22 pm 
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marmot8 wrote:
do you think the poor grades will be an issue in the future when applying to non-legal jobs?


Not sure, actually. I certainly hope not, but you never know.

I mean, if you put your GPA on your resume, it's going to be your UG GPA and not your LS GPA. But I'm not really concerned about it at this point.

However, again, taking that risk was a better choice for me than throwing away another 100k+ for extremely shitty job prospects.


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 Post subject: Re: Dropped out of a T14 law school, ask me anything
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:24 pm 
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delusional wrote:
Not sure what you're trying to accomplish.

The point, since I haven't been clear apparently, is that an AMA thread only works if OP actually answers questions. OP may very well have useful advice to give, but if OP insists on revealing very little, there's not much use. And from the little that OP has revealed, it is hardly unreasonable to suggest that OP's decision to drop out was unprincipled, and that therefore this OP might be untrustworthy -- a conclusion relevant to 0Ls or similarly situated 1Ls.


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 Post subject: Re: Dropped out of a T14 law school, ask me anything
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:25 pm 
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sunynp wrote:
T14dropout wrote:
sunynp wrote:
What made you consider law school in the first place? Was it just that you happened to take the LSAT and do well?

Did you have any work experience before you went to law school?

How much did you know about the employment market before you started school? (did you go in with a plan to drop out if you were below median, or did you figure that out later?)


1) I suppose I could try to blame other people and say I was nudged towards it by my parents, but ultimately it was my decision. It seemed like the type of stuff that I was capable of doing/skilled at and paid well. Once I got into a T14 school, my fate was pretty much sealed

2) Screening for Northwestern, I see. Yes, I had some work experience prior to law school.

3) I was an avid reader of TLS/ATL/etc prior to starting school. So I knew exactly "how to do well" (according to other TLS'ers) but I managed to screw it up somehow. But yeah, I knew about the sorry state of the legal employment market and in my arrogance thought that I could easily make it to median and pull a biglaw job. And the plan going in was to drop out if I was moderately below median - I should have implemented it after first semester though.


No I wasn't screening for Northwestern. I wondered if work experience affected the way you handled law school. I think having outside work experience might have made you more confident in dropping out. Obviously there are other students at T14s who should drop out, but they will continue anyway.


I'm not sure about that. It just felt like simple math to me.

We know that at the lower T14's, biglaw will dip slightly below median for SA's. Barring unusual circumstances, everyone else is going to have to go into PI/shitlaw/non-legal jobs.

Once I missed that line, I knew it was time to go.


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 Post subject: Re: Dropped out of a T14 law school, ask me anything
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:26 pm 
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rayiner wrote:
I find it hilarious that people are harshing on the OP and trying to rationalize why they won't be like him. To respond to the various implied comments ITT:

1) Outside Y/S, every school has a grade range where you're pretty much fucked. Harvard had to hire a few dozen of its own grads for C/O 2011--no school is immune. See: http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 1&t=181723.

2) No, law school is not a good place to find yourself. Most of the people there know what they want to do.

3) Going in with a more noble purpose than "doing it for the money" does not make you do better in school. Indeed, an intellectual love for the law is probably negatively correlated with grades. The people who really found the policy discussions intellectually interesting tended not to realize that exams were a game.

4) Within the typical narrow spread at a law school, LSAT/GPA doesn't have any impact on your grades. Between a 168 and a 172, it's a total crapshoot where each will finish in the class.

5) While people who perform at the very bottom tend to put in below a minimum level of effort, and people who perform at the very top tend to put in a very strong effort, within the middle 80% of the class, effort is largely uncorrelated with 1L grades.

OP did the smart thing--he realized he didn't want to be a lawyer and he realized his prospects were marginal so he didn't put good money after bad.


I don't always agree w/ Rayiner. But when it do it's b/c that mofo is on point!


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 Post subject: Re: Dropped out of a T14 law school, ask me anything
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:26 pm 
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Cade McNown wrote:
delusional wrote:
Not sure what you're trying to accomplish.

The point, since I haven't been clear apparently, is that an AMA thread only works if OP actually answers questions. OP may very well have useful advice to give, but if OP insists on revealing very little, there's not much use. And from the little that OP has revealed, it is hardly unreasonable to suggest that OP's decision to drop out was unprincipled, and that therefore this OP might be untrustworthy -- a conclusion relevant to 0Ls or similarly situated 1Ls.


What more do you want me to reveal? Anything that would be relevant or helpful to 0L's/1L's, I'm willing to share. Other stuff I'd like to keep under wraps.


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 Post subject: Re: Dropped out of a T14 law school, ask me anything
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:28 pm 
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i want to be clear that this question is entirely distinct from Cade McNown's line of questioning, because that guy's kind of a douche and i don't really care what you do with your thread. so, answer this or not, up to you.

my question is: why do you care if people know what school you went to?


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 Post subject: Re: Dropped out of a T14 law school, ask me anything
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:31 pm 
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fatduck wrote:
i want to be clear that this question is entirely distinct from Cade McNown's line of questioning, because that guy's kind of a douche

my question is: why do you care if people know what school you went to?


There are very few dropouts every year from each school (attrition rates of like 3% for T14 schools IIRC), and once I admit to attending a school, it'd be fairly easy to figure out exactly who I am.

And I'm kind of a stickler for online privacy.


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 Post subject: Re: Dropped out of a T14 law school, ask me anything
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:33 pm 
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T14dropout wrote:
fatduck wrote:
i want to be clear that this question is entirely distinct from Cade McNown's line of questioning, because that guy's kind of a douche

my question is: why do you care if people know what school you went to?


There are very few dropouts every year from each school (attrition rates of like 3% for T14 schools IIRC), and once I admit to attending a school, it'd be fairly easy to figure out exactly who I am.

And I'm kind of a stickler for online privacy.

yes, i know that's why you aren't saying what school you went to. i was wondering why you're a stickler for online privacy, especially on a throwaway account.


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 Post subject: Re: Dropped out of a T14 law school, ask me anything
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:37 pm 
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fatduck wrote:
T14dropout wrote:
fatduck wrote:
i want to be clear that this question is entirely distinct from Cade McNown's line of questioning, because that guy's kind of a douche

my question is: why do you care if people know what school you went to?


There are very few dropouts every year from each school (attrition rates of like 3% for T14 schools IIRC), and once I admit to attending a school, it'd be fairly easy to figure out exactly who I am.

And I'm kind of a stickler for online privacy.

yes, i know that's why you aren't saying what school you went to. i was wondering why you're a stickler for online privacy, especially on a throwaway account.


I have no idea, actually.

I've always been like that. I never give my real DOB for online stuff, or my real name. I probably say stuff that isn't totally PC on the internet, and don't want that somehow linked back to me + have to deal with the repercussions. Maybe I'm just unreasonably paranoid.


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 Post subject: Re: Dropped out of a T14 law school, ask me anything
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:41 pm 
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T14dropout wrote:
fatduck wrote:
T14dropout wrote:
fatduck wrote:
i want to be clear that this question is entirely distinct from Cade McNown's line of questioning, because that guy's kind of a douche

my question is: why do you care if people know what school you went to?


There are very few dropouts every year from each school (attrition rates of like 3% for T14 schools IIRC), and once I admit to attending a school, it'd be fairly easy to figure out exactly who I am.

And I'm kind of a stickler for online privacy.

yes, i know that's why you aren't saying what school you went to. i was wondering why you're a stickler for online privacy, especially on a throwaway account.


I have no idea, actually.

I've always been like that. I never give my real DOB for online stuff, or my real name. I probably say stuff that isn't totally PC on the internet, and don't want that somehow linked back to me + have to deal with the repercussions. Maybe I'm just unreasonably paranoid.

interestingly, i'm pretty much the opposite of a stickler for online privacy, and i also have no idea why. i think i'm probably just a closet attention whore. if the inverse is true for you, that's probably a good thing.


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 Post subject: Re: Dropped out of a T14 law school, ask me anything
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:44 pm 
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fatduck wrote:
interestingly, i'm pretty much the opposite of a stickler for online privacy, and i also have no idea why. i think i'm probably just a closet attention whore. if the inverse is true for you, that's probably a good thing.


Haha, well met. This whole thread could probably be seen as attention whoring, but I felt like doing it, so... YOLO?

also brb dinner, will continue to answer questions as long as this thread stays alive


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 Post subject: Re: Dropped out of a T14 law school, ask me anything
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:45 pm 
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T14dropout wrote:
fatduck wrote:
T14dropout wrote:
fatduck wrote:
i want to be clear that this question is entirely distinct from Cade McNown's line of questioning, because that guy's kind of a douche

my question is: why do you care if people know what school you went to?


There are very few dropouts every year from each school (attrition rates of like 3% for T14 schools IIRC), and once I admit to attending a school, it'd be fairly easy to figure out exactly who I am.

And I'm kind of a stickler for online privacy.

yes, i know that's why you aren't saying what school you went to. i was wondering why you're a stickler for online privacy, especially on a throwaway account.


I have no idea, actually.

I've always been like that. I never give my real DOB for online stuff, or my real name. I probably say stuff that isn't totally PC on the internet, and don't want that somehow linked back to me + have to deal with the repercussions. Maybe I'm just unreasonably paranoid.

You sound just like me in terms of online privacy, and I also plan on dropping out if I end up in the bottom 1/3rd my 1L. Is there any advice you would give an incoming 1L? It's threads like these that make me not want to leave my well-paying, stable job that I love.


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 Post subject: Re: Dropped out of a T14 law school, ask me anything
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:46 pm 
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Since I'm considering law school, I find this thread very interesting. Thank you OP.


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 Post subject: Re: Dropped out of a T14 law school, ask me anything
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:49 pm 
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T14dropout wrote:
What more do you want me to reveal? Anything that would be relevant or helpful to 0L's/1L's, I'm willing to share. Other stuff I'd like to keep under wraps.

If I were a similarly situated 1L considering dropping out, I would expect you to answer loaded questions:
(1) at least a narrower range of schools than not YHSCCN, b/c Penn =/= Georgetttown.
(2) what alternative work you will do to pay back your $50K loans + interest, short term and long term, b/c someone who drops out b/c law school is a lot of work and his/her fellow students hurt some feelings isn't much of a baseline.
(3) what your ugrad major was specifically--> goes to your marketability, as you recognize, but also to your credibility
(4) why, given your high ability but low work ethic, you'll be any more successful in another field?


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 Post subject: Re: Dropped out of a T14 law school, ask me anything
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:53 pm 
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fatduck wrote:
that guy's kind of a douche.

Ty for the qualifier.


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 Post subject: Re: Dropped out of a T14 law school, ask me anything
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 10:55 pm 
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Cade McNown wrote:
fatduck wrote:
that guy's kind of a douche.

Ty for the qualifier.

you're welcome. you really are only kind of a douche.


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 Post subject: Re: Dropped out of a T14 law school, ask me anything
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:01 pm 
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Did anyone at the school try to talk you out of it? If they did, did you think they were being honest or blowing smoke up your ass?


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 Post subject: Re: Dropped out of a T14 law school, ask me anything
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:06 pm 
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ahnhub wrote:
Did anyone at the school try to talk you out of it? If they did, did you think they were being honest or blowing smoke up your ass?


I have no doubt the Dean wanted to retain me as a student, in order to keep the attrition rate down for the US News rankings.

My mind was made up already though.


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 Post subject: Re: Dropped out of a T14 law school, ask me anything
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:11 pm 
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I agree with Rayiner. Really not getting all the hate that people are flinging at this guy for voicing an experience and decision that is woefully unexplored on this forum. Dropping out after 1L surely makes sense for a lot of people.

OP isn't trying to convince anyone to drop out or not attend, just sharing his experiences. If he isn't answering your questions to your satisfaction, that sounds like a personal problem.

FWIW, I knew a guy that dropped out of my T1 to go to Darden. He did ok.


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 Post subject: Re: Dropped out of a T14 law school, ask me anything
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:19 pm 
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Cade McNown wrote:
T14dropout wrote:
What more do you want me to reveal? Anything that would be relevant or helpful to 0L's/1L's, I'm willing to share. Other stuff I'd like to keep under wraps.

If I were a similarly situated 1L considering dropping out, I would expect you to answer loaded questions:
(1) at least a narrower range of schools than not YHSCCN, b/c Penn =/= Georgetttown.
(2) what alternative work you will do to pay back your $50K loans + interest, short term and long term, b/c someone who drops out b/c law school is a lot of work and his/her fellow students hurt some feelings isn't much of a baseline.
(3) what your ugrad major was specifically--> goes to your marketability, as you recognize, but also to your credibility
(4) why, given your high ability but low work ethic, you'll be any more successful in another field?


(1) DNCG or however they're ranked now

(2) My feelings weren't hurt by other people, the students at my LS just gave off an aura of douchiness (similar to the one you're giving off). And I was fortunate in that I have a supportive family who can cover that 50k+ until I can pay them back. If I didn't have the familial support, I'd be in a bind. So I'm not sure what to say to the people who are thinking of dropping out but don't have the cash to pay back the loans immediately. At the end of the day though, being 50k in the hole is better than being 150k in the hole with identical job prospects. But yeah, probably looking into doing something with my UG major and maybe another professional school (god help me).

(3) UG major: biology.

(4) That's the rub, I may not be any more successful in any other field. But I've learned through this experience that being talented or whatever isn't enough, and at the end of the day, I just need to work harder.


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 Post subject: Re: Dropped out of a T14 law school, ask me anything
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:21 pm 
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Cade McNown wrote:
(1) at least a narrower range of schools than not YHSCCN, b/c Penn =/= Georgetttown.


For someone with bad grades, it really is. If you find yourself with a 3.0 at either school after 1L, you're pretty well and fucked. Even at Penn for C/O 2011, there were a dozen people not working, another dozen at small firms, another dozen in school-funded jobs, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Dropped out of a T14 law school, ask me anything
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:34 pm 
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KevinP wrote:
You sound just like me in terms of online privacy, and I also plan on dropping out if I end up in the bottom 1/3rd my 1L. Is there any advice you would give an incoming 1L? It's threads like these that make me not want to leave my well-paying, stable job that I love.


At the risk of incurring Cade Mcnown's wrath:

Disclaimer: I bombed 1L year, so definitely take this with a billion grains of salt

I'm going to approach this question assuming that you're already fully set on going to LS. If someone else asks for a 0L "Should I go to law school?" perspective, the answers will obviously be different

1) Work hard. Work really hard. I went into law school with a certain degree of cockiness (see: arrogance) and paid for it. Like I said before, you're going to be competing with extremely smart individuals and it all really comes down to how hard you work + some degree of "getting it" before everyone else does.

2) Set goals and be realistic about them. If you want biglaw, you know you're going to have to (basically) be above median at a T14 or top 10% at other schools to have a good shot. If after first semester, you're not where you want to be, ask yourself if it's worth continuing on or if you should get out then and save yourself some money.

3) Know when to cut your losses. I think you've got this one figured out already, but yeah. Imo, there should be a lot more people dropping out of even T14 schools after 1L grades come out. But I guess they either really love law or are hopelessly optimistic.

4) Take care of your body. Seems really simple to do, but it's a lot harder in practice when you've got tons of reading + legal writing assignments to do. Remember, you've only got one body - better take care of it.


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 Post subject: Re: Dropped out of a T14 law school, ask me anything
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:37 pm 
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^^^ Number 3. And I would add that most of them are too scared to drop out. They feel like there are no other options. People tell me all the time they wish they could drop out. I ask them why they don't make a plan and do it. Then their fear/laziness kicks in. Then there's the whole sunk cost thing.


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 Post subject: Re: Dropped out of a T14 law school, ask me anything
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2012 11:55 pm 
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T14dropout wrote:
KevinP wrote:
You sound just like me in terms of online privacy, and I also plan on dropping out if I end up in the bottom 1/3rd my 1L. Is there any advice you would give an incoming 1L? It's threads like these that make me not want to leave my well-paying, stable job that I love.


At the risk of incurring Cade Mcnown's wrath:

Disclaimer: I bombed 1L year, so definitely take this with a billion grains of salt

I'm going to approach this question assuming that you're already fully set on going to LS. If someone else asks for a 0L "Should I go to law school?" perspective, the answers will obviously be different

1) Work hard. Work really hard. I went into law school with a certain degree of cockiness (see: arrogance) and paid for it. Like I said before, you're going to be competing with extremely smart individuals and it all really comes down to how hard you work + some degree of "getting it" before everyone else does.

2) Set goals and be realistic about them. If you want biglaw, you know you're going to have to (basically) be above median at a T14 or top 10% at other schools to have a good shot. If after first semester, you're not where you want to be, ask yourself if it's worth continuing on or if you should get out then and save yourself some money.

3) Know when to cut your losses. I think you've got this one figured out already, but yeah. Imo, there should be a lot more people dropping out of even T14 schools after 1L grades come out. But I guess they either really love law or are hopelessly optimistic.

4) Take care of your body. Seems really simple to do, but it's a lot harder in practice when you've got tons of reading + legal writing assignments to do. Remember, you've only got one body - better take care of it.

Wanted to thank you very much for your responses. It must not have been easy to cut your losses, especially after people put a ton of pressure on you to keep going. Best of luck to you.


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 Post subject: Re: Dropped out of a T14 law school, ask me anything
PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:11 am 
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OP: "Welp...I just wanted to help y'all out...hope this did it...what else can I say?"


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