Dropped out of a T14 law school, ask me anything

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jurisx
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Re: Dropped out of a T14 law school, ask me anything

Postby jurisx » Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:33 pm

Icculus, it's funny how much you think you know. You make me laugh.

T14dropout
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Re: Dropped out of a T14 law school, ask me anything

Postby T14dropout » Wed Jun 20, 2012 2:40 pm

AP = academic probation, I assume

I was never placed on academic probation

And I withdrew from the school aka I quit

Like one of those WWE matches

attractive_NUisance
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Re: Dropped out of a T14 law school, ask me anything

Postby attractive_NUisance » Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:11 pm

OP - I think that you made the right call.

In my opinion, everyone starting law school who is borrowing to pay for tuition should have a worst-case GPA target in mind. After 1L if they don't hit it they should just drop out if they score below that number. The GPA target should be based on your school's ability to get jobs for people in your target geography and practice area. Its really just common sense to not throw good money after bad if you aren't going to get decent job prospects out of the deal. Depending on tuition refund policies at your school, you probably want to stick around until on-campus recruiting ends. I honestly cannot understand why the bottom quarter of the class doesn't drop out at every school apart from HYS. The return on investment does not justify the cost for people who are bottom of the curve after 1L year.

If more people did this it would also put pressure on law schools to either improve their career services or decrease their class sizes.

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fatduck
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Re: Dropped out of a T14 law school, ask me anything

Postby fatduck » Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:15 pm

attractive_NUisance wrote:I honestly cannot understand why the bottom quarter of the class doesn't drop out at every school apart from HYS. The return on investment does not justify the cost for people who are bottom of the curve after 1L year.

assuming a 25% chance of ending up in the bottom quarter, i suspect that no one should go to law school, then.

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sunynp
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Re: Dropped out of a T14 law school, ask me anything

Postby sunynp » Wed Jun 20, 2012 3:28 pm

fatduck wrote:
attractive_NUisance wrote:I honestly cannot understand why the bottom quarter of the class doesn't drop out at every school apart from HYS. The return on investment does not justify the cost for people who are bottom of the curve after 1L year.

assuming a 25% chance of ending up in the bottom quarter, i suspect that no one should go to law school, then.


If people could know how well they would perform before school started, they would know not to go. I think there is no question the bottom 25% should drop out below the T6, and even then a person should consider dropping out if they strike out at OCI.

I can see how it might be worth a shot to go to law school. People don't want to give up without trying. But if your grades are way below median at a T14 you should consider dropping. If you are the bottom 25% you should drop out. And at other schools, people below median should drop out after 1L depending on how much they are paying to go.

So I think people who are determined to go to law school should go to 1L, but if they are unhappy or are below median, they need to cut their losses. $50,000 or so is manageable over a lifetime, but $100,000 or more is not.

SchopenhauerFTW
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Re: Dropped out of a T14 law school, ask me anything

Postby SchopenhauerFTW » Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:28 pm

Should've just gotten a scholarship at a lower-ranked.

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Icculus
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Re: Dropped out of a T14 law school, ask me anything

Postby Icculus » Wed Jun 20, 2012 4:45 pm

jurisx wrote:Icculus, it's funny how much you think you know. You make me laugh.


Having now viewed your post history I wish I had never responded to you to begin with. My guess is IRL you have zero social skills and most likely are an incredibly forgettable person. I almost feel bad for you.

attractive_NUisance wrote:OP - I think that you made the right call.

In my opinion, everyone starting law school who is borrowing to pay for tuition should have a worst-case GPA target in mind. After 1L if they don't hit it they should just drop out if they score below that number. The GPA target should be based on your school's ability to get jobs for people in your target geography and practice area. Its really just common sense to not throw good money after bad if you aren't going to get decent job prospects out of the deal. Depending on tuition refund policies at your school, you probably want to stick around until on-campus recruiting ends. I honestly cannot understand why the bottom quarter of the class doesn't drop out at every school apart from HYS. The return on investment does not justify the cost for people who are bottom of the curve after 1L year.

If more people did this it would also put pressure on law schools to either improve their career services or decrease their class sizes.


100% agree with this.

concurrent fork
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Re: Dropped out of a T14 law school, ask me anything

Postby concurrent fork » Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:04 pm

rayiner wrote:1) Outside Y/S, every school has a grade range where you're pretty much fucked. Harvard had to hire a few dozen of its own grads for C/O 2011--no school is immune. See: http://top-law-schools.com/forums/viewt ... 1&t=181723.

Doesn't that data show that Y had more than double the percentage of school-funded positions than H? Is the argument that Y's fellowships are "real" while H's are not?

Reprisal
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Re: Dropped out of a T14 law school, ask me anything

Postby Reprisal » Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:47 pm

sunynp wrote:If people could know how well they would perform before school started, they would know not to go. I think there is no question the bottom 25% should drop out below the T6, and even then a person should consider dropping out if they strike out at OCI.


OCI is only the whole world if you're committed to biglaw defense. I know plenty of people below median from T4 schools with decent jobs (as long as you define making 70k to resolve insurance disputes or work in house for a smallish company decent, and I do. That's far more than most make and in line with the debt load they incurred.).

WSJ wrote:"In a world where things that require discipline and steadiness can be done increasingly by computers, is the traditional educational emphasis on discipline, accuracy and successful performance and regularity really what we want?" [Larry Summers] asked. Creativity, he said, might be an even more valuable asset that educators and parents should emphasize. At Harvard, [Summers] quipped, the A students tend to become professors and the C students become wealthy donors.


If all the C students start dropping out, what will law schools do for money in the inevitable funding crunch? And what will biglaw defend against?

T14dropout
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Re: Dropped out of a T14 law school, ask me anything

Postby T14dropout » Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:50 pm

SchopenhauerFTW wrote:Should've just gotten a scholarship at a lower-ranked.


Agreed. I passed up a scholarship at a lower ranked school because of the better odds of getting biglaw. Ended up costing me quite a bit more money.

T14dropout
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Re: Dropped out of a T14 law school, ask me anything

Postby T14dropout » Wed Jun 20, 2012 6:53 pm

Reprisal wrote:
If all the C students start dropping out, what will law schools do for money in the inevitable funding crunch? And what will biglaw defend against?


Law schools make money hand over fist, I'm sure they'd find a way to keep their revenue stream. Accepting more transfers from other instutitions?

Applying_Late
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Re: Dropped out of a T14 law school, ask me anything

Postby Applying_Late » Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:35 pm

I don't understand why people are attacking this poster. He just said to ask him anything about dropping out from a T-14. Are you a failure if you drop out from a T-14? No, absolutely not. In fact, more and more I've been meeting partners at big law firms who said they made the mistake of not going to business school; thus, they feel like they are big failures for actually going to a law school like Harvard. And truth be told, compared to all the private equity/hedge fund/banking guys, yah they are losers--they are simply known as those chumps who help them do their big transactions at a marginal cost.

I think all the people attacking him don't like hearing that they risk losing a lot by going to law school. It's unpleasant, but it's the reality, and I'm glad the poster is willing to share some aspects as to why he dropped out.

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Re: Dropped out of a T14 law school, ask me anything

Postby ahnhub » Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:39 pm

Applying_Late wrote:I don't understand why people are attacking this poster. He just said to ask him anything about dropping out from a T-14. Are you a failure if you drop out from a T-14? No, absolutely not. In fact, more and more I've been meeting partners at big law firms who said they made the mistake of not going to business school; thus, they feel like they are big failures for actually going to a law school like Harvard. And truth be told, compared to all the private equity/hedge fund/banking guys, yah they are losers--they are simply known as those chumps who help them do their big transactions at a marginal cost.

I think all the people attacking him don't like hearing that they risk losing a lot by going to law school. It's unpleasant, but it's the reality, and I'm glad the poster is willing to share some aspects as to why he dropped out.


I don't think anyone attacked him except for that 1 guy who wanted him to reveal what school he was at.

Applying_Late
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Re: Dropped out of a T14 law school, ask me anything

Postby Applying_Late » Wed Jun 20, 2012 7:43 pm

ahnhub wrote:
Applying_Late wrote:I don't understand why people are attacking this poster. He just said to ask him anything about dropping out from a T-14. Are you a failure if you drop out from a T-14? No, absolutely not. In fact, more and more I've been meeting partners at big law firms who said they made the mistake of not going to business school; thus, they feel like they are big failures for actually going to a law school like Harvard. And truth be told, compared to all the private equity/hedge fund/banking guys, yah they are losers--they are simply known as those chumps who help them do their big transactions at a marginal cost.

I think all the people attacking him don't like hearing that they risk losing a lot by going to law school. It's unpleasant, but it's the reality, and I'm glad the poster is willing to share some aspects as to why he dropped out.


I don't think anyone attacked him except for that 1 guy who wanted him to reveal what school he was at.


Attacked is a broad definition. I meant to include things like mocked, laughed at, chided, or anything to be perceived as negative or anything post in which a respondent showed signs of being defensive.

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sunynp
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Re: Dropped out of a T14 law school, ask me anything

Postby sunynp » Wed Jun 20, 2012 8:02 pm

If people dropped out when they should, schools would have to cut costs and also improve efforts at training and placing people. Who knows - maybe they could drop the mandatory curve. But then how would firms discriminate among students.

I suppose any generalization of when to drop out is limited because of the debt- to- potential income ratio. I still think that people in the bottom 25% of their class outside of a few schools are going to struggle with employment.

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sd5289
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Re: Dropped out of a T14 law school, ask me anything

Postby sd5289 » Wed Jun 20, 2012 9:52 pm

echamberlin8 wrote:Thanks for those trying to reassure me. I currently do work at a BigLaw firm (not as a lawyer, obviously), and most of the lawyers I interact with here aren't bad people, so you guys are probably right. Yes, I would agree a lot of people on here aren't very funny. To me, what sells a joke or humor isn't always just the joke, but also the person's attitude/persona. And when they come off as an elitist or as arrogant, then it's pretty hard to find them funny.


I do as well (not BigLaw, PI agency), and I agree. Most of the lawyers I interact with are pretty cool people with a select few douche nozzles sprinkled in there. There's not even close the level of contention in the workplace that I've seen online.

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DaftAndDirect
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Re: Dropped out of a T14 law school, ask me anything

Postby DaftAndDirect » Thu Jun 21, 2012 5:54 am

jurisx wrote:
mrman17 wrote:
ajaxconstructions wrote:
mrman17 wrote:I had a rough first year as well, but big law was never my goal. It's easy to speculate before law school that you will be in the top 1% of your class...especially using your undergraduate experience as a guide. Law school, however, is a whole different animal. To say that law school is difficult is not quite as accurate as saying that it is murderers row. No matter where you study, you will be competing against very good-to-excellent students from all over the country.

I decided to stick it out because I didn't ever want to become a quitter. I just graduated last month and I'm glad that I stayed in school. That said, I'm not sure that I would go to law school if I could do it all over again. I would probably take a scholarship offer at a lower ranked school given the opportunity again. I'm glad that I have the legal training and skills that one gains in law school, but I am excited to work in finance and business again rather than law.


Where do you work now? Finance and business with a law degree? Shouldn't you have just dropped out then?


I'm studying for the Bar right now. I plan on eventually getting an MBA, CPA, or CFA and working as a financial analyst. A J.D. alone might be close to worthless in this job market, but combined with other credentials can be pretty useful.

I started school during the midst of the great recession, and my industry was struck particularly hard. If I had dropped out what could I have done? Stocked shelves at Target? No, dropping out wasn't really an attractive option.


(I used to work for Fidelity Investments as an Options trader)


an MBA is always useless. The CPA sounds solid though.


I don't normally do the straight ad hom thing, but you're an idiot.

BradleytheBuyer
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Re: Dropped out of a T14 law school, ask me anything

Postby BradleytheBuyer » Thu Jun 21, 2012 8:00 am

OP, thanks for making this thread and answering questions. I am suprised by the overwhelming support for your decision from a value standpoint. The benefits from having a T14 JD, along with alumni network, and the chance you can still get a 6 figure job make dropping out a bad financial decision imo. Also LRAP and IBR programs inject even more value into staying. Even in a field like bio, the communication and lawyering skills you would have gotten in the next two years, coupled with the prestigious JD would make you a stronger candidate for jobs, promotions, leadership and management positions. I know all this stuff is not as tangible as the bill for the student loan is, but it's still real.

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Re: Dropped out of a T14 law school, ask me anything

Postby ahnhub » Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:20 pm

BradleytheBuyer wrote:OP, thanks for making this thread and answering questions. I am suprised by the overwhelming support for your decision from a value standpoint. The benefits from having a T14 JD, along with alumni network, and the chance you can still get a 6 figure job make dropping out a bad financial decision imo. Also LRAP and IBR programs inject even more value into staying. Even in a field like bio, the communication and lawyering skills you would have gotten in the next two years, coupled with the prestigious JD would make you a stronger candidate for jobs, promotions, leadership and management positions. I know all this stuff is not as tangible as the bill for the student loan is, but it's still real.


OP said he absolutely hated the law and that his only reason for going was to get a 160K job. He had terrible grades, so his chances of landing a Biglaw job were close to zero. I am generally not a big fan of the drop-out thing; I think it's a terrible waste of time and money attending a school where you know beforehand there's a good chance you will drop out. But if you truly hate it or you're paying sticker and you don't get Biglaw, it makes sense. Both of those things were true for this person.

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sunynp
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Re: Dropped out of a T14 law school, ask me anything

Postby sunynp » Thu Jun 21, 2012 1:26 pm

BradleytheBuyer wrote:OP, thanks for making this thread and answering questions. I am suprised by the overwhelming support for your decision from a value standpoint. The benefits from having a T14 JD, along with alumni network, and the chance you can still get a 6 figure job make dropping out a bad financial decision imo. Also LRAP and IBR programs inject even more value into staying. Even in a field like bio, the communication and lawyering skills you would have gotten in the next two years, coupled with the prestigious JD would make you a stronger candidate for jobs, promotions, leadership and management positions. I know all this stuff is not as tangible as the bill for the student loan is, but it's still real.


Can you please explain what you mean? How does IBR inject value into staying? LRAP only works if you can get a qualifying job.

Why do you think that having a JD would make OP a stronger candidate for jobs that don't require a JD? Have you any data to that effect? Most of what I have seen shows that a JD actually acts to make you less hirable. But that is based on anecdotal evidence. I am not sure why going to get a JD would help you get promotions that having nothing to do with practicing law.

T14dropout
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Re: Dropped out of a T14 law school, ask me anything

Postby T14dropout » Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:18 pm

Basically my answer verbatim

The chance that I was getting a 6 figure job with my grades was something close to 0.0000000 and I wasn't planning on working 10 years at ~50k just to repay 150k+ worth of loans for a job that I don't even think I would like

jurisx
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Re: Dropped out of a T14 law school, ask me anything

Postby jurisx » Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:42 pm

Icculus wrote:
jurisx wrote:Icculus, it's funny how much you think you know. You make me laugh.


Having now viewed your post history I wish I had never responded to you to begin with. My guess is IRL you have zero social skills and most likely are an incredibly forgettable person. I almost feel bad for you.

attractive_NUisance wrote:OP - I think that you made the right call.

In my opinion, everyone starting law school who is borrowing to pay for tuition should have a worst-case GPA target in mind. After 1L if they don't hit it they should just drop out if they score below that number. The GPA target should be based on your school's ability to get jobs for people in your target geography and practice area. Its really just common sense to not throw good money after bad if you aren't going to get decent job prospects out of the deal. Depending on tuition refund policies at your school, you probably want to stick around until on-campus recruiting ends. I honestly cannot understand why the bottom quarter of the class doesn't drop out at every school apart from HYS. The return on investment does not justify the cost for people who are bottom of the curve after 1L year.

If more people did this it would also put pressure on law schools to either improve their career services or decrease their class sizes.


100% agree with this.

I feel sorry for the winner who read my post history

jurisx
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Re: Dropped out of a T14 law school, ask me anything

Postby jurisx » Thu Jun 21, 2012 2:43 pm

T14dropout wrote:Basically my answer verbatim

The chance that I was getting a 6 figure job with my grades was something close to 0.0000000 and I wasn't planning on working 10 years at ~50k just to repay 150k+ worth of loans for a job that I don't even think I would like


What did you end up deciding to do for work now and long term career goal?

Are you married to someone with a decent paying job (seen that happend a lot)

BradleytheBuyer
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Re: Dropped out of a T14 law school, ask me anything

Postby BradleytheBuyer » Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:46 pm

sunynp wrote:Can you please explain what you mean? How does IBR inject value into staying? LRAP only works if you can get a qualifying job.

Why do you think that having a JD would make OP a stronger candidate for jobs that don't require a JD? Have you any data to that effect? Most of what I have seen shows that a JD actually acts to make you less hirable. But that is based on anecdotal evidence. I am not sure why going to get a JD would help you get promotions that having nothing to do with practicing law.


I don't know all of the IBR details but I was under the impression that its general function was to cap the repayment of federal loans at a certain percentage of the borrower's income. if he gets a 60k job out of law school, his monthly payment on the loan will be the same whether he owes 50k or 150k. I know the equation completely changes if he has a wife and kids or a job that pays 90k, but the fact that the interest won't capitalize on a larger loan for IBR and the payment is the same for a certain salary range adds more value to taking on the additional 100k. LRAP does only work for qualifying jobs, but the definition, at least in UVA, is pretty broad.
I think a JD, just like a CPA or MBA makes him a stronger candidate for jobs based purely on my subjective opinion. I think employers are aware that people embelish on resumes and colleges inflate GPAs. A graduate degree from a prestigious univeristy, again in my subjective opinion, signals that the person has good communication skills, analytical skills and stuff like political correctness skills that allow him to simply get the degree and not kicked out for smoking weed or breaking into the registrar's office. Having a JD might make you overqualified for many positions or show undecisiveness if you continue on something completely unrelated, but I don't think that any corporate structure or even small business wouldn't benefit from someone with a law degree.

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echamberlin8
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Re: Dropped out of a T14 law school, ask me anything

Postby echamberlin8 » Thu Jun 21, 2012 3:47 pm

sd5289 wrote:
echamberlin8 wrote:Thanks for those trying to reassure me. I currently do work at a BigLaw firm (not as a lawyer, obviously), and most of the lawyers I interact with here aren't bad people, so you guys are probably right. Yes, I would agree a lot of people on here aren't very funny. To me, what sells a joke or humor isn't always just the joke, but also the person's attitude/persona. And when they come off as an elitist or as arrogant, then it's pretty hard to find them funny.


I do as well (not BigLaw, PI agency), and I agree. Most of the lawyers I interact with are pretty cool people with a select few douche nozzles sprinkled in there. There's not even close the level of contention in the workplace that I've seen online.


I wonder why this is...?




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