Any Substantive Differences in E&E's From Edition to Edition

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mt1042
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Any Substantive Differences in E&E's From Edition to Edition

Postby mt1042 » Sat May 05, 2012 3:47 pm

I am planning on buying the E&E's for next year's classes and reading them over the summer. I have a long commute, so I have a lot of reading time on my hands.

I have found that I could save a lot of money by purchasing E&E's that are one generation older than the current ones. Has anyone done this or does anyone know if there are real differences in the material?

Thanks

kaiser
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Re: Any Substantive Differences in E&E's From Edition to Edition

Postby kaiser » Sat May 05, 2012 3:52 pm

DO NOT read them before school starts. You should avoid all substantive preparation. Please do a search of past threads, and you will find countless explanations as to why it is a bad idea. Plus, if you search hard enough, you will find the true gems of advice for what you SHOULD be doing 0L summer to get an advantage over your classmates (and that list is quite long, but the advice isn't always entirely intuitive)

As to your question: It depends on the subject. Something like torts doesn't really change from edition to edition, whereas civil procedure has some substantive changes such that an older edition may not serve you well. I used older version of most E&E's aside from civil procedure. Got most of them for all of 5 bucks on ebay

shock259
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Re: Any Substantive Differences in E&E's From Edition to Edition

Postby shock259 » Sat May 05, 2012 4:00 pm

Prepare for a million responses telling you not to do this.

That said, I did it and found it helpful.

I can't speak to your actual question, but I'd just go with whatever is cheapest and be prepared to be a bit flexible in some classes.

kaiser
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Re: Any Substantive Differences in E&E's From Edition to Edition

Postby kaiser » Sat May 05, 2012 4:05 pm

shock259 wrote:Prepare for a million responses telling you not to do this.

That said, I did it and found it helpful.

I can't speak to your actual question, but I'd just go with whatever is cheapest and be prepared to be a bit flexible in some classes.


I also did it, and its my biggest regret since it took so much time away from doing the things that undoubtedly could have helped me. If you have enough time to do substantive prep while also doing the surefire things, then power to you. But I think there are quite a few things that rank much higher on the totem pole

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blurbz
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Re: Any Substantive Differences in E&E's From Edition to Edition

Postby blurbz » Sat May 05, 2012 4:08 pm

Substantive prepwork is going to be pretty useless as you don't know what your prof will teach or what position she'll take.

To actually answer your question: It depends on the area of law. Civ Pro might have changed drastically last summer while property hasn't changed much at all.

shock259
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Re: Any Substantive Differences in E&E's From Edition to Edition

Postby shock259 » Sat May 05, 2012 4:41 pm

kaiser wrote:
shock259 wrote:Prepare for a million responses telling you not to do this.

That said, I did it and found it helpful.

I can't speak to your actual question, but I'd just go with whatever is cheapest and be prepared to be a bit flexible in some classes.


I also did it, and its my biggest regret since it took so much time away from doing the things that undoubtedly could have helped me. If you have enough time to do substantive prep while also doing the surefire things, then power to you. But I think there are quite a few things that rank much higher on the totem pole


Can you clarify what would have been a better use of time? I guess my pecking order is probably: Getting to Maybe, LEEWS, Delaney -- > E&Es.

I'm glad I took the time to read the E&Es. Of course, after reading 5 E&Es, I couldn't recall anything specific about any class on Day 1. But the when we came to a new topic or doctrine during first semester, the doctrine was usually somewhat familiar. It gave me some background, which I would then tweak relative to the casebook/professor.

It's not an efficient use of times by any means. And it's probably unnecessary. But I never get why people rage on it as if it is counterproductive. It's not going to hurt you (unless you do it at the expense of other stuff).

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kalvano
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Re: Any Substantive Differences in E&E's From Edition to Edition

Postby kalvano » Sat May 05, 2012 4:43 pm

Civ Pro - get the newest edition.
Property - get Acing Property or the Glannon Guide, not the E&E.
Contracts - no idea.
Crim - Dressler
Torts - an older edition of the E&E is fine. Tort law has pretty much been the same since 93 A.D.
Con Law - Chemerinsky.


Don't bother with them before school, as you will end up doing a lot of unnecessary reading that won't help you.

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: Any Substantive Differences in E&E's From Edition to Edition

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Sat May 05, 2012 4:48 pm

kalvano wrote:Civ Pro - get the newest edition.
Property - get Acing Property or the Glannon Guide, not the E&E.
Contracts - no idea.
Crim - Dressler
Torts - an older edition of the E&E is fine. Tort law has pretty much been the same since 93 A.D.
Con Law - Chemerinsky.


Don't bother with them before school, as you will end up doing a lot of unnecessary reading that won't help you.


^I agree with all of this, except I used Understanding Property by Sprankling, and I thought it was great. Most of property involves really old stuff, but the version that just came out this year would probably be very useful for Takings Clause doctrine, which has seen some really recent changes.

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kalvano
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Re: Any Substantive Differences in E&E's From Edition to Edition

Postby kalvano » Sat May 05, 2012 4:53 pm

Richie Tenenbaum wrote:
kalvano wrote:Civ Pro - get the newest edition.
Property - get Acing Property or the Glannon Guide, not the E&E.
Contracts - no idea.
Crim - Dressler
Torts - an older edition of the E&E is fine. Tort law has pretty much been the same since 93 A.D.
Con Law - Chemerinsky.


Don't bother with them before school, as you will end up doing a lot of unnecessary reading that won't help you.


^I agree with all of this, except I used Understanding Property by Sprankling, and I thought it was great. Most of property involves really old stuff, but the version that just came out this year would probably be very useful for Takings Clause doctrine, which has seen some really recent changes.



You can get Kelo and all the Takings Clause stuff in Chemerinsky. I think I had a friend that used Understanding Property, and he liked it.


Also, anything from the Inside series by Aspen, located here, has been absolutely money for me. They have a Crim and a Property supplement, which I haven't looked at, but based on the other books in the series I have seen, I would be willing to bet they are very, very good. They have both 1L and upper-level classes covered.

kaiser
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Re: Any Substantive Differences in E&E's From Edition to Edition

Postby kaiser » Sat May 05, 2012 5:11 pm

shock259 wrote:
kaiser wrote:
shock259 wrote:Prepare for a million responses telling you not to do this.

That said, I did it and found it helpful.

I can't speak to your actual question, but I'd just go with whatever is cheapest and be prepared to be a bit flexible in some classes.


I also did it, and its my biggest regret since it took so much time away from doing the things that undoubtedly could have helped me. If you have enough time to do substantive prep while also doing the surefire things, then power to you. But I think there are quite a few things that rank much higher on the totem pole


Can you clarify what would have been a better use of time? I guess my pecking order is probably: Getting to Maybe, LEEWS, Delaney -- > E&Es.

I'm glad I took the time to read the E&Es. Of course, after reading 5 E&Es, I couldn't recall anything specific about any class on Day 1. But the when we came to a new topic or doctrine during first semester, the doctrine was usually somewhat familiar. It gave me some background, which I would then tweak relative to the casebook/professor.

It's not an efficient use of times by any means. And it's probably unnecessary. But I never get why people rage on it as if it is counterproductive. It's not going to hurt you (unless you do it at the expense of other stuff).


Here is what the pecking order should have been for me, and what I regret not doing, since any of the following would have helped me far more than any substantive prep:

Formatting and reformatting my resume, and making cover letter templates

On December 1, everything was crashing down on me at the same time. Was studying for finals, trying to finish my last LRW assignment, and then jobs come up out of nowhere. And if you want to at least try for big firms, prestigious positions, or federal judicial internships, you need to have that stuff out on December 1st. If I had a solid resume ready to go, and cover letter templates, I could have saved a lot of time to focus on practice tests and finishing up outlines. Formatting and crafting a good resume takes time and though, editing, and reediting as different eyes evaluate it. I should have started all this over the summer.

Learning about law school exams

As you mentioned, law school exam prep, even if done over the summer, can only help you. I can't tell you how many classmates were totally confused at exam time once they realized that it wasn't just a memorization test. Exam success doesn't just depend on "arguing both sides", and there is much for a 0L to research and learn about general exam structure and tips. Sure, every 1L should consult with the professor as to exam preferences, but that student would be well served by creating a foundation over 0L summer of exam knowledge.

Getting better at typing

I didn't realize how crappy a typer I was until I felt the fire of a running clock on the day of the exam. I always thought I was pretty fast on the keyboard, but some extra speed would have made a huge difference. There are countless ways to improve typing speed, from classroom-style courses, internet guides, practice drills, etc. Almost everyone can gain at least some improvement in typing speed, so it is worth doing.

Networking with alums

Some might disagree, but I think it would be a great benefit to 0L's to have a base of contacts. I would write emails to lawyers in big firms who were recent grads of my school, asking if they would chat with me about their school experience, the work they do, what advice they have, etc. Young alums are especially happy to recount their school experience and take you under their wing a bit, since they can so vividly remember being there. And when it comes time to apply to 1L jobs, you have a contact to help you out, a source for job advice down the road, and a name to drop at OCI during the 1st summer. Sending out these emails and making these class to develop contacts is a long and drawn-out process, and requires a lot of time and professionalism, but I found it to be well worth it. It could very well lead to a huge benefit if a contact can put in a good word and get you an interview.

Getting prioritized and organized

Especially for someone who was as disorganized as me, I wish I would have taken some type to create a system to get things straight. You can't just go in running a blind race, and need to be disciplined. It all starts by creating good habits, healthy routines, and getting into the right state of mind.

Taking time to self-reflect and know what you want to get out of law school

Some of the biggest law school failure stems from not really knowing why you are there in the first place. It would be a huge benefit to you to set out concrete goals, with clear checkpoints along the way. If you clearly understand where you stand and what you hope to gain from the experience, you can wisely and efficiently work toward those goals. Again, the worst thing is to just come in running a blind marathon.

These are the things that students should be focused on during 0L summer, and the reason 0L substantive prep is such a red herring is because it takes the focus off of these important things. Sure, if one can manage to do all of the above thoroughly, then grab a 0L prep book and waste some time reading it if for nothing more than the placebo effect. But a select few entering 0L's will see the bigger picture, and realize how to get an advantage through the above things. Substantive prep yields little to no benefit and detracts from the ability to do things that yield concrete and tangible benefits. And I won't even bother going into the reasons why I think the substantive prep actually hindered my 1L performance.

Hope this clarifies, and that 0L's take some of the above to heart this summer.

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ilovesf
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Re: Any Substantive Differences in E&E's From Edition to Edition

Postby ilovesf » Sat May 05, 2012 5:22 pm

Reading E&Es would have been a huge waste of time for me, especially classes like torts and crim law. My crim class had rules that were almost nothing like that was in the E&E. In my torts class we only covered products liability, negligence and intentional torts.. that's like 20% of the E&E. Not to mention, sometimes what is in the supplements is not exactly what your professor is teaching. Logically, it makes much more sense to learn what your professor says and then enhance it with an E&E. Anyway, to answer your question, I think it depends on the section of the E&E. Some things won't change very much, but I remember comparing my new civ pro E&E with an older version and some of the FRCP had been updated, and that was not reflected in the old E&E.

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AVBucks4239
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Re: Any Substantive Differences in E&E's From Edition to Edition

Postby AVBucks4239 » Sat May 05, 2012 5:58 pm

The general advice of "don't read them over the summer" is a good one for a multitude of reasons. In order of likelihood:

1) The amount of material in six supplements would be massive. You wouldn't remember much.

2) You should be able to understand a lot of the material without a supplement.

3) Your professor will present the rules in different language than the supplement. You want to use your professor's language over the supplement's 100% of the time.

4) Your professor will not cover probably 50% of the material in a supplement. They can only teach so much, and each professor chooses differently on what stuff to cover. My contracts supplement has 90+ pages on conditions and promises, yet we read one case about them because my professor didn't think the common law distinction of conditions/promises was important in modern contract law. This will happen for about half of your supplement.

5) Your professor might recommend a supplement in their syllabus. If they do this, I'd highly suggest using it.

6) You don't know your casebooks yet. The author of your casebook very well might have written a supplement, and if that's the case, you're golden.

7) You don't know what your exams will be like yet. If you have a multiple choice property exam, the property E&E will be pretty useless, but "Q&A Property" or "Siegel's Property" will be invaluable.

Long story short, wait until the start of classes. Get a feel for each class then buy your supplements after a few weeks.

Kaiser laid out what you should be doing pretty well. Nothing in a supplement will help you with exam-taking. I know a kid in my section who literally knows the law for every class COLD. Our torts professor wrote a bar review outline and he/she could recite it to you like it was the pledge of allegiance. Still, he/she finished pretty close to median because he/she just doesn't know what to do on an exam.

The most important thing you can be doing now is figuring out how professors want you to think and write on a law school exam. That is a skill and a trait than cannot be taught, and can only be learned with practice. That's why so many people recommend Getting to Maybe, it really is that good. I also think Andrew McClurg's "1L of a Ride" is a very good book. He's a professor who lays out what to expect, what you should be focusing on in lecture, mistakes not to make for exams, etc. It's a good read, he's funny. Also, read all of the guides to success on here. They're very helpful.

Long story short, you should be formulating a plan for how you're going to attack 1L, not learn anything substantive for 1L.

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kalvano
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Re: Any Substantive Differences in E&E's From Edition to Edition

Postby kalvano » Sat May 05, 2012 6:02 pm

Learning the law is pretty easy. Learning how to ramble on an exam is the hard part. Anyone can recite the law.

I really, really, really like this book a lot for going over a good process for the actual mechanics of writing an exam. Much more useful to me than GTM.

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AVBucks4239
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Re: Any Substantive Differences in E&E's From Edition to Edition

Postby AVBucks4239 » Sat May 05, 2012 6:06 pm

kalvano wrote:Learning the law is pretty easy. Learning how to ramble on an exam is the hard part. Anyone can recite the law.

I really, really, really like this book a lot for going over a good process for the actual mechanics of writing an exam. Much more useful to me than GTM.

Forgot to mention that book and +1 to your comment. A few sentences in that book lit a 500 watt lightbulb off in my head several times.

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Extension_Cord
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Re: Any Substantive Differences in E&E's From Edition to Edition

Postby Extension_Cord » Sat May 05, 2012 6:18 pm

kalvano wrote:Civ Pro - get the newest edition.
Property - get Acing Property or the Glannon Guide, not the E&E.
Contracts - no idea.
Crim - Dressler
Torts - an older edition of the E&E is fine. Tort law has pretty much been the same since 93 A.D.
Con Law - Chemerinsky.


Don't bother with them before school, as you will end up doing a lot of unnecessary reading that won't help you.


I would not recommend the glannon guide for property. Stick with Acing Property and Understanding Property.

Contracts, read the Chirelstein primier. Old edition of E&E is good.

Crim, avoid the E&E, the Dressler book is good. I'm selling the old version for $4 shipped, check the for sale forum. I'm basically giving it away for free because I wouldnt be able to sell it without taking a loss on amazon due to their commission, it also saves the buyer a couple bucks.

Civ pro, get the glannon guide and the E&E.

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I.P. Daly
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Re: Any Substantive Differences in E&E's From Edition to Edition

Postby I.P. Daly » Sat May 05, 2012 10:26 pm

I tried the E&E approach before law school based on the advice of Planet Law School. The E&Es covered a lot of material that my professors taught in a different way, or did not cover at all (i.e., it was not on the exam). Several of my professors flat out disagreed with what was written in the E&Es. Overall, I thought reading the E&Es before law school was more or less a waste of my time.

However, if you're intent on reading the E&Es, it might be helpful to get outlines created by former students at your that have taken your specific classes, specifically with your future professors. Reviewing outlines can help you determine what will be covered and emphasized by the professor. You can read the E&Es accordingly. If you can't find free outlines based the specific classes/professors that you'll be taking, you can purchase specific outlines through outlinedepot.com. Caveat: as a 0L, it will be difficult or impossible to determine the quality of an outline. Caveat II, a lot of posters may disagree with this suggestion; however, I think it would be slightly more effective than simply diving into the E&E reading. Again, I'm only recommending this if you're intent on reading the E&Es.

Nevertheless, as the folks above have suggested, you can probably spend your time more efficiently doing other things.

mt1042
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Re: Any Substantive Differences in E&E's From Edition to Edition

Postby mt1042 » Sun May 06, 2012 1:52 am

Good lord there are a lot of responses.

So, since this forum is supposed to be for current law students, I did not feel compelled to mention that I am a rising 2L. Sorry, that apparently caused some confusion. Thanks for all the advice assuming I was an 0L though, it made me remember the good old days.

I found reading E&E's beforehand to be helpful, so I'm sticking with what worked.

I was planning on buying the E&E's for Prof. Responsibility, Evidence, and Crim. Pro. To my knowledge, these fields have not undergone revolutionary change in the last 3 years or so. Has anyone read these and have thoughts?

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kapital98
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Re: Any Substantive Differences in E&E's From Edition to Edition

Postby kapital98 » Sun May 06, 2012 2:22 am

ilovesf wrote:Reading E&Es would have been a huge waste of time for me, especially classes like torts and crim law. My crim class had rules that were almost nothing like that was in the E&E. In my torts class we only covered products liability, negligence and intentional torts.. that's like 20% of the E&E. Not to mention, sometimes what is in the supplements is not exactly what your professor is teaching. Logically, it makes much more sense to learn what your professor says and then enhance it with an E&E. Anyway, to answer your question, I think it depends on the section of the E&E. Some things won't change very much, but I remember comparing my new civ pro E&E with an older version and some of the FRCP had been updated, and that was not reflected in the old E&E.


Sf, Takacs kept a copy of the E&E on his shelf right next to the casebook. I used it and almost the entire torts class was lock-step with the E&E. It was incredibly helpful for me (the one odd thing: Takacs had a slightly more elaborate definition of negligence.)

E&E's are hit and miss IMO. Civ Pro and Torts are the gold standard for E&E's. Property and Contracts are both nice too. Crim was absolutely worthless.

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ilovesf
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Re: Any Substantive Differences in E&E's From Edition to Edition

Postby ilovesf » Sun May 06, 2012 2:24 am

kapital98 wrote:
ilovesf wrote:Reading E&Es would have been a huge waste of time for me, especially classes like torts and crim law. My crim class had rules that were almost nothing like that was in the E&E. In my torts class we only covered products liability, negligence and intentional torts.. that's like 20% of the E&E. Not to mention, sometimes what is in the supplements is not exactly what your professor is teaching. Logically, it makes much more sense to learn what your professor says and then enhance it with an E&E. Anyway, to answer your question, I think it depends on the section of the E&E. Some things won't change very much, but I remember comparing my new civ pro E&E with an older version and some of the FRCP had been updated, and that was not reflected in the old E&E.


Sf, Takacs kept a copy of the E&E on his shelf right next to the casebook. I used it and almost the entire torts class was lock-step with the E&E. It was incredibly helpful for me (the one odd thing: Takacs had a slightly more elaborate definition of negligence.)

E&E's are hit in miss IMO. Civ Pro and Torts are the gold standard for E&E's. Property and Contracts are both nice too. Crim was absolutely worthless.

My point relating to torts is that if you read the entire book when you only cover a very narrow set of topics it is a complete waste of time. I wasn't even saying don't read it - I was saying don't read it before even ever going to class.

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Judge Philip Banks
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Re: Any Substantive Differences in E&E's From Edition to Edition

Postby Judge Philip Banks » Sun May 06, 2012 5:06 am

Surprised no one mentioned the Freer hornbook for Civ Pro yet. WAY better than the E&E and Glannon Guide in my opinion. But for the love of god, don't read the Freer hornbook before school starts...

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I.P. Daly
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Re: Any Substantive Differences in E&E's From Edition to Edition

Postby I.P. Daly » Sun May 06, 2012 8:31 am

mt1042 wrote:Good lord there are a lot of responses.

So, since this forum is supposed to be for current law students, I did not feel compelled to mention that I am a rising 2L. Sorry, that apparently caused some confusion. Thanks for all the advice assuming I was an 0L though, it made me remember the good old days.

I found reading E&E's beforehand to be helpful, so I'm sticking with what worked.

I was planning on buying the E&E's for Prof. Responsibility, Evidence, and Crim. Pro. To my knowledge, these fields have not undergone revolutionary change in the last 3 years or so. Has anyone read these and have thoughts?


The Second Ed. E&E for Professional Responsibility worked really well with the Martyn & Fox book.

mt1042
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Re: Any Substantive Differences in E&E's From Edition to Edition

Postby mt1042 » Sun May 06, 2012 11:21 am

I.P. Daly wrote:The Second Ed. E&E for Professional Responsibility worked really well with the Martyn & Fox book.


Thanks IP. I believe that is the text my prof has used in the past.

It's a little funny that people are still posting their ideas about E&E's for classes I have already taken. :wink:

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kalvano
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Re: Any Substantive Differences in E&E's From Edition to Edition

Postby kalvano » Sun May 06, 2012 11:30 am

The Evidence E&E is great. That Inside series has a Crim Pro book, and it looked a lot better than the E&E.

goodolgil
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Re: Any Substantive Differences in E&E's From Edition to Edition

Postby goodolgil » Sun May 06, 2012 3:34 pm

kalvano wrote:The Evidence E&E is great. That Inside series has a Crim Pro book, and it looked a lot better than the E&E.


+ 1 on Evidence. Explain hearsay and its exceptions in about 30 pages better than my professor did in teaching it for half the freaking semester.

I also thought the corporations E&E was excellent, albeit a bit longer than most E&Es. Crim Pro I E&E was mostly worthless. They really are hit and miss.

EDIT: I think the differences in editions is pretty iunmportant. Whatever has changed will be a small portion and you can just make note of that while reading.

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leobowski
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Re: Any Substantive Differences in E&E's From Edition to Edition

Postby leobowski » Sun May 06, 2012 5:25 pm

mt1042 wrote:Good lord there are a lot of responses.

So, since this forum is supposed to be for current law students, I did not feel compelled to mention that I am a rising 2L. Sorry, that apparently caused some confusion. Thanks for all the advice assuming I was an 0L though, it made me remember the good old days.

I found reading E&E's beforehand to be helpful, so I'm sticking with what worked.

I was planning on buying the E&E's for Prof. Responsibility, Evidence, and Crim. Pro. To my knowledge, these fields have not undergone revolutionary change in the last 3 years or so. Has anyone read these and have thoughts?



I used all of these, with an edition that is just one edition old. It worked out for me. The evidence one is excellent (especially w/ hearsay and non-hearsay), crim pro is good, and PR is decent but still helpful in some sections (especially sorting out conflicts). Good luck!




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