Depresssion, Apathy, & Unemployment from a CLS-2L (Long)

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acrossthelake
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Re: Depresssion, Apathy, & Unemployment from a CLS-2L (Long)

Postby acrossthelake » Sun May 06, 2012 5:01 pm

Edited out part of this by request. Adjusting my point to stand alone.


I've talked to a lot of depressed people who said that people who would try to draw analogies to their own experiences when they weren't dealing with clinical depression often made them feel worse, isolated, and sometimes made them delay seeking professional treatment. "If these people can do it, why can't I?" Advice to exercise more, or eat better, or maybe start small, or to change one's perspective, etc. tended to just make them feel worse because they know this. It's not a novel idea; a lot of them had these habits in better days. Stories of how healthy people pulled it together in tough times aren't really the same as the depressed dealing with depression.

Throwaway2013
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Re: Depresssion, Apathy, & Unemployment from a CLS-2L (Long)

Postby Throwaway2013 » Sun May 06, 2012 5:03 pm

f7 wrote:
apl6783 wrote:Apologies for the poor word choice. I had a similar experience to OP when I was in undergrad. The root of my problem was that I put things off and didn't try, which resulted in poor grades, which resulted in anxiety (extreme), which resulted in my being barely able to focus on something even when I wanted to, which resulted in even worse grades, etc. I thought the OP was in a similar situation.

I began trying to work through the anxiety, etc. In the short term, changing my perspectives helped me focus on the task at hand more easily, grades started to improve, and with each success I had I felt a little better.

Putting things off and not trying are symptoms of OP's problem, not causes.


It's not so simple. Part of my initial struggles were with procrastination. Though I can definitely say the problems I dealt with before pale in comparison to the shape I'm in now. The anxiety, the lack of motivation or energy, the desire to shrink away from the world - all stuff I've never really gone through before.

@Apl: Don't worry about editing away your stuff, you had a valid contribution

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Gettingstarted1928
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Re: Depresssion, Apathy, & Unemployment from a CLS-2L (Long)

Postby Gettingstarted1928 » Sun May 06, 2012 6:47 pm

acrossthelake wrote:Edited out part of this by request. Adjusting my point to stand alone.


I've talked to a lot of depressed people who said that people who would try to draw analogies to their own experiences when they weren't dealing with clinical depression often made them feel worse, isolated, and sometimes made them delay seeking professional treatment. "If these people can do it, why can't I?" Advice to exercise more, or eat better, or maybe start small, or to change one's perspective, etc. tended to just make them feel worse because they know this. It's not a novel idea; a lot of them had these habits in better days. Stories of how healthy people pulled it together in tough times aren't really the same as the depressed dealing with depression.


Agree. Those things will do next to nothing for someone who truly has a mental illness and is not just feeling lazy or "blue".

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arvcondor
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Re: Depresssion, Apathy, & Unemployment from a CLS-2L (Long)

Postby arvcondor » Sun May 06, 2012 8:16 pm

acrossthelake wrote:Stories of how healthy people pulled it together in tough times aren't really the same as the depressed dealing with depression.

So god damn credited. I had a friend in college who brusquely advised me that the solution to my suicidal depression was to simply enjoy myself and have a nice meal. I still want to punch him every time I see him.

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rayiner
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Re: Depresssion, Apathy, & Unemployment from a CLS-2L (Long)

Postby rayiner » Sun May 06, 2012 8:41 pm

Gettingstarted1928 wrote:
acrossthelake wrote:Edited out part of this by request. Adjusting my point to stand alone.


I've talked to a lot of depressed people who said that people who would try to draw analogies to their own experiences when they weren't dealing with clinical depression often made them feel worse, isolated, and sometimes made them delay seeking professional treatment. "If these people can do it, why can't I?" Advice to exercise more, or eat better, or maybe start small, or to change one's perspective, etc. tended to just make them feel worse because they know this. It's not a novel idea; a lot of them had these habits in better days. Stories of how healthy people pulled it together in tough times aren't really the same as the depressed dealing with depression.


Agree. Those things will do next to nothing for someone who truly has a mental illness and is not just feeling lazy or "blue".


I agree, but that being said, we don't know whether we're dealing with clinical depression. I don't think OP's story is inconsistent with a depression that results from circumstances rather than any underlying chemical imbalance.

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mallard
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Re: Depresssion, Apathy, & Unemployment from a CLS-2L (Long)

Postby mallard » Sun May 06, 2012 8:49 pm

rayiner wrote:
Gettingstarted1928 wrote:
acrossthelake wrote:Edited out part of this by request. Adjusting my point to stand alone.


I've talked to a lot of depressed people who said that people who would try to draw analogies to their own experiences when they weren't dealing with clinical depression often made them feel worse, isolated, and sometimes made them delay seeking professional treatment. "If these people can do it, why can't I?" Advice to exercise more, or eat better, or maybe start small, or to change one's perspective, etc. tended to just make them feel worse because they know this. It's not a novel idea; a lot of them had these habits in better days. Stories of how healthy people pulled it together in tough times aren't really the same as the depressed dealing with depression.


Agree. Those things will do next to nothing for someone who truly has a mental illness and is not just feeling lazy or "blue".


I agree, but that being said, we don't know whether we're dealing with clinical depression. I don't think OP's story is inconsistent with a depression that results from circumstances rather than any underlying chemical imbalance.


What led to it is not really an issue. The issue is if he has depression, which is, in part, a condition that renders "changing your perspective" extremely difficult. Clinical depression is not only chemical depression. (And the neurochemistry of depression is not very well understood, so it's not really clear what "chemical depression" would mean, anyway.)

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rayiner
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Re: Depresssion, Apathy, & Unemployment from a CLS-2L (Long)

Postby rayiner » Sun May 06, 2012 9:00 pm

mallard wrote:
rayiner wrote:
Gettingstarted1928 wrote:
Agree. Those things will do next to nothing for someone who truly has a mental illness and is not just feeling lazy or "blue".


I agree, but that being said, we don't know whether we're dealing with clinical depression. I don't think OP's story is inconsistent with a depression that results from circumstances rather than any underlying chemical imbalance.


What led to it is not really an issue. The issue is if he has depression, which is, in part, a condition that renders "changing your perspective" extremely difficult. Clinical depression is not only chemical depression. (And the neurochemistry of depression is not very well understood, so it's not really clear what "chemical depression" would mean, anyway.)


My point is simply that there is something of a middle ground between depression serious enough to require medication and simply "feeling blue" as acrossthelake was referring to. I definitely agree that OP should see someone, but I think it's jumping to conclusions to say his symptoms are inconsistent with a level of depression that couldn't be fixed by dropping out of law school and moving to Bangkok for a summer. Not saying it could, but rather that there is no reason to rule out that possibility and immediately jump to the conclusion that OP is not "healthy."

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mallard
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Re: Depresssion, Apathy, & Unemployment from a CLS-2L (Long)

Postby mallard » Sun May 06, 2012 9:02 pm

rayiner wrote:
mallard wrote:
rayiner wrote:
Gettingstarted1928 wrote:
Agree. Those things will do next to nothing for someone who truly has a mental illness and is not just feeling lazy or "blue".


I agree, but that being said, we don't know whether we're dealing with clinical depression. I don't think OP's story is inconsistent with a depression that results from circumstances rather than any underlying chemical imbalance.


What led to it is not really an issue. The issue is if he has depression, which is, in part, a condition that renders "changing your perspective" extremely difficult. Clinical depression is not only chemical depression. (And the neurochemistry of depression is not very well understood, so it's not really clear what "chemical depression" would mean, anyway.)


My point is simply that there is something of a middle ground between depression serious enough to require medication and simply "feeling blue" as acrossthelake was referring to. I definitely agree that OP should see someone, but I think it's jumping to conclusions to say his symptoms are inconsistent with a level of depression that couldn't be fixed by dropping out of law school and moving to Bangkok for a summer. Not saying it could, but rather that there is no reason to rule out that possibility and immediately jump to the conclusion that OP is not "healthy."


No reason except the fact that doing so could be dangerous, even deadly, for the OP.

Depression is an illness like any other. You don't think away illnesses. You medicate them.

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rayiner
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Re: Depresssion, Apathy, & Unemployment from a CLS-2L (Long)

Postby rayiner » Sun May 06, 2012 9:04 pm

mallard wrote:No reason except the fact that doing so could be dangerous, even deadly, for the OP.

Depression is an illness like any other. You don't think away illnesses. You medicate them.


That's a dramatic oversimplification of the mechanisms of depression. I agree you can't just "think away" severe depression. I also think you can treat moderate depression by changing your external stimuli.

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Re: Depresssion, Apathy, & Unemployment from a CLS-2L (Long)

Postby mallard » Sun May 06, 2012 9:05 pm

rayiner wrote:
mallard wrote:No reason except the fact that doing so could be dangerous, even deadly, for the OP.

Depression is an illness like any other. You don't think away illnesses. You medicate them.


That's a dramatic oversimplification of the mechanisms of depression.


We're not talking about mechanisms. We're talking about treatments.

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rayiner
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Re: Depresssion, Apathy, & Unemployment from a CLS-2L (Long)

Postby rayiner » Sun May 06, 2012 9:09 pm

mallard wrote:
rayiner wrote:
mallard wrote:No reason except the fact that doing so could be dangerous, even deadly, for the OP.

Depression is an illness like any other. You don't think away illnesses. You medicate them.


That's a dramatic oversimplification of the mechanisms of depression.


We're not talking about mechanisms. We're talking about treatments.


The mechanisms obviously imply the treatments. Depending on what is causing the depression there may be ways to treat the problem that don't involve medication.

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mallard
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Re: Depresssion, Apathy, & Unemployment from a CLS-2L (Long)

Postby mallard » Sun May 06, 2012 9:16 pm

rayiner wrote:The mechanisms obviously imply the treatments. Depending on what is causing the depression there may be ways to treat the problem that don't involve medication.


I can't think of any reason why this would be obvious, and I can't think of any reason why those other ways would be someone's first line of attack. Causal mechanisms don't say anything about what's going on in the brain at the time of the depression. Stress, depression, etc. can actually cause chemical changes in your brain, not just the other way around. And anyway, I really don't see why it matters what the cause is. Most depression is "atypical depression" (depression that comes at the prompting of certain external circumstances), not "melancholic depression" (constant depression regardless of external stimuli). Even atypical depression has something to do with chemical factors. (People discuss the propensity of people for depression, given the right - i.e., wrong - circumstances.) And most depression responds decently well to some or another medication. And I don't think any study has shown that bootstrapping and networking are good treatments for depression.

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Re: Depresssion, Apathy, & Unemployment from a CLS-2L (Long)

Postby keg411 » Sun May 06, 2012 9:28 pm

Chemical imbalances actually aren't the causes of everyone's problems, IMO. I'd wager Cognitive Behavior Therapy >>>>>>> medication for most people suffering from anxiety-related DSM disorders, even chronic ones. For people without some type of actual chemical imbalance, SSRI's can do way more harm then good and even make the symptoms worse.

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Re: Depresssion, Apathy, & Unemployment from a CLS-2L (Long)

Postby mallard » Sun May 06, 2012 9:32 pm

keg411 wrote:Chemical imbalances actually aren't the causes of everyone's problems, IMO. I'd wager Cognitive Behavior Therapy >>>>>>> medication for most people suffering from anxiety-related DSM disorders, even chronic ones. For people without some type of actual chemical imbalance, SSRI's can do way more harm then good and even make the symptoms worse.


SSRIs aren't the only antidepressant medication out there, and they're certainly not what the OP ought to be prescribed. That said, of course any medication should be taken only under the express guidance of a medical doctor, and if someone goes to a psychiatrist and the psychiatrist does not think they should be prescribed antidepressants, they probably shouldn't be.

Anyway, we should probably allow the OP to retake control of his thread. (Not trying to get the last word in, just saying.)

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Re: Depresssion, Apathy, & Unemployment from a CLS-2L (Long)

Postby dresden doll » Sun May 06, 2012 9:36 pm

I had two close friends who suffered from clinical depression. Both were medicated and at least one is doing much better now (I don't know about the other because we're not friends anymore). While two cases aren't enough for me to make any particularly informed judgments, I have always been under the impression that depression is to a great extent caused by imbalances involving brain chemistry.

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Re: Depresssion, Apathy, & Unemployment from a CLS-2L (Long)

Postby mallard » Sun May 06, 2012 9:42 pm

dresden doll wrote:I had two close friends who suffered from clinical depression. Both were medicated and at least one is doing much better now (I don't know about the other because we're not friends anymore). While two cases aren't enough for me to make any particularly informed judgments, I have always been under the impression that depression is to a great extent caused by imbalances involving brain chemistry.


Also worth noting that the OP's account included several details that point to this being major/clinical rather than circumstantial depression (or what you might call "being sad"):
- It's been going on for a really long time (since law school started, or before).
- The symptoms are very severe.
- It's impaired his daily functioning in a way that he didn't like but could not bring himself to stop.
- No obvious initial event brought it about.

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Julio_El_Chavo
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Re: Depresssion, Apathy, & Unemployment from a CLS-2L (Long)

Postby Julio_El_Chavo » Sun May 06, 2012 9:43 pm

keg411 wrote:Chemical imbalances actually aren't the causes of everyone's problems, IMO. I'd wager Cognitive Behavior Therapy >>>>>>> medication for most people suffering from anxiety-related DSM disorders, even chronic ones. For people without some type of actual chemical imbalance, SSRI's can do way more harm then good and even make the symptoms worse.


CR. In my own personal experience, drugs have done more harm than good. I have no doubt that for some people drugs are essential, however.
Last edited by Julio_El_Chavo on Sun May 06, 2012 9:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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dresden doll
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Re: Depresssion, Apathy, & Unemployment from a CLS-2L (Long)

Postby dresden doll » Sun May 06, 2012 9:44 pm

mallard wrote:
dresden doll wrote:I had two close friends who suffered from clinical depression. Both were medicated and at least one is doing much better now (I don't know about the other because we're not friends anymore). While two cases aren't enough for me to make any particularly informed judgments, I have always been under the impression that depression is to a great extent caused by imbalances involving brain chemistry.


Also worth noting that the OP's account included several details that point to this being major/clinical rather than circumstantial depression (or what you might call "being sad"):
- It's been going on for a really long time (since law school started, or before).
- The symptoms are very severe.
- It's impaired his daily functioning in a way that he didn't like but could not bring himself to stop.
- No obvious initial event brought it about.


Yes, these were absolutely applicable to them both.

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Re: Depresssion, Apathy, & Unemployment from a CLS-2L (Long)

Postby gdane » Sun May 06, 2012 9:47 pm

Take 900 mg of St. John's Wort a day.

Visit a homeless shelter (people or animal) and help out. Helping out others in a worse position than you often makes you realize what you have, even if its not much, and helps you appreciate things more.

Smile. Hakuna Mattata. Keep your head up. Literally. I've read studies that apparently keeping your head up can help you stay in a positive mindset.

Read this too: http://www.wikihow.com/Develop-Self-Esteem

Good luck!

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mallard
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Re: Depresssion, Apathy, & Unemployment from a CLS-2L (Long)

Postby mallard » Sun May 06, 2012 9:48 pm

gdane wrote:Take 900 mg of St. John's Wort a day.

Visit a homeless shelter (people or animal) and help out. Helping out others in a worse position than you often makes you realize what you have, even if its not much, and helps you appreciate things more.

Smile. Hakuna Mattata. Keep your head up. Literally. I've read studies that apparently keeping your head up can help you stay in a positive mindset.

Read this too: http://www.wikihow.com/Develop-Self-Esteem

Good luck!


This is exactly the kind of thing we've been talking about (although admittedly I don't know much about St. John's wort).
Last edited by mallard on Sun May 06, 2012 9:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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gdane
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Re: Depresssion, Apathy, & Unemployment from a CLS-2L (Long)

Postby gdane » Sun May 06, 2012 9:49 pm

mallard wrote:This is exactly the kind of thing we've been talking about.

Yea? Well, Im taking a break from Con law and not willing to read/dont have the time to read through 4 pages. So, I thought I'd just put in my two centavos.

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gdane
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Re: Depresssion, Apathy, & Unemployment from a CLS-2L (Long)

Postby gdane » Sun May 06, 2012 9:51 pm

I thought we were friends... :(

Edit: Ooh! I caught something I was not supposed to see. :mrgreen:

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roaringeagle
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Re: Depresssion, Apathy, & Unemployment from a CLS-2L (Long)

Postby roaringeagle » Sun May 06, 2012 9:55 pm

keg411 wrote:Chemical imbalances actually aren't the causes of everyone's problems, IMO. I'd wager Cognitive Behavior Therapy >>>>>>> medication for most people suffering from anxiety-related DSM disorders, even chronic ones. For people without some type of actual chemical imbalance, SSRI's can do way more harm then good and even make the symptoms worse.



And you'd be contradicting much smarter people than yourself who have studied and proven that chemical imbalances are the root cause of most people's mental difficulties. CBT and the newer version is very effective, but if someone has chronic mental problems therapy is just half of the equation. SSRI's are only one drug among many that treat Anxiety, Depression, Bipolar Disorder, Schizophrenia, Suicidal ideation, Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder Seasonal Affective Disorder etc.

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Re: Depresssion, Apathy, & Unemployment from a CLS-2L (Long)

Postby keg411 » Sun May 06, 2012 9:56 pm

mallard wrote:Also worth noting that the OP's account included several details that point to this being major/clinical rather than circumstantial depression (or what you might call "being sad"):
- It's been going on for a really long time (since law school started, or before).
- The symptoms are very severe.
- It's impaired his daily functioning in a way that he didn't like but could not bring himself to stop.
- No obvious initial event brought it about.


I agree that OP's problem appears to be chronic and not circumstantial, but that still doesn't mean medication is definitively the answer. Although his experiences with things like procrastination and not wanting to do any work aren't just symptoms of depression. I had a similar experience with an entirely different anxiety disorder.

But I'm not a doctor (or even close), so I'm not going to try to diagnose him. Best bet is to hopefully find a good psychologist who can figure out the problem, and then if medication is necessary, it can also be recommended (plenty of psychologists are willing to recommend psychiatrists if necessary). The sooner he can get an accurate diagnosis, the better.

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mallard
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Re: Depresssion, Apathy, & Unemployment from a CLS-2L (Long)

Postby mallard » Sun May 06, 2012 9:58 pm

keg411 wrote:
mallard wrote:Also worth noting that the OP's account included several details that point to this being major/clinical rather than circumstantial depression (or what you might call "being sad"):
- It's been going on for a really long time (since law school started, or before).
- The symptoms are very severe.
- It's impaired his daily functioning in a way that he didn't like but could not bring himself to stop.
- No obvious initial event brought it about.


I agree that OP's problem appears to be chronic and not circumstantial, but that still doesn't mean medication is definitively the answer. Although his experiences with things like procrastination and not wanting to do any work aren't just symptoms of depression. I had a similar experience with an entirely different anxiety disorder.

But I'm not a doctor (or even close), so I'm not going to try to diagnose him. Best bet is to hopefully find a good psychologist who can figure out the problem, and then if medication is necessary, it can also be recommended (plenty of psychologists are willing to recommend psychiatrists if necessary). The sooner he can get an accurate diagnosis, the better.


The diagnosis should be from a psychiatrist. A doctor.




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