* Forum

[ijmiddleton]

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[Borhas]

How much do the requirements and qualifications vary from branch to branch? What do you look for in JAG officers as far as credentials during law school? And as far as personal accomplishments along the way?

[ijmiddleton]

How much do the requirements and qualifications vary from branch to branch? What do you look for in JAG officers as far as credentials during law school? And as far as personal accomplishments along the way?

I cant speak to the other branches, but the Marine Corps looks at 4 areas of qualification:

1) Moral - Police involvement, criminal background, drug use.

2) Academic - Must have at least one of the following scores greater than or equal to (22 ACT, 1000 SAT, or 99 ASVAB), Must have an LSAT above 150, GPA above a 2.0 (both cum and last semester), and must ultimately pass a BAR exam.

3) Physical - 12 Pull-ups, 80 Crunches in 2 minutes, 3 mile run in under 24:00 min. (competitive would be 20/100/20:30 respectively).

4) Medical - Must pass a MEPS physical (Think sports physical) and be under the age of 28 by the time you commission.

Keep in mind, these are the baseline qualifications to apply. No one with just minimums will be selected. In order to be competitive, you must stand out in more than one area. Additionally, extracurricular activities, leadership experience, and community service can counter bad numbers in areas you are weak.

Also keep in mind, the military is a huge bureaucracy, where almost anything is waiverable if you have a compelling reason to waive it (like age, police involvement, etc).

Hope that helps, let me know if you want me to drill down on any specific area.

[ILbadger]

In your experience, how many JAG recruits had no prior military experience? Additionally, for those recruits without prior service what opportunities are offered to them in regards to moving up the ranks? Thanks.

[shock259]

The Air Force and Navy seem a bit more clear about their selection rates (in that they are under 10%). Does the USMC have any definitive numbers or guesstimates for law contracts that are picked by the selection board for OCS vs those that are rejected? Do you have any anecdotal thoughts or guesstimates?

I'm guessing the number USMC rate is a little bit higher because 1) the physical requirements probably drive down the # of applicants, and 2) there must be some "extra" people selected by the board with the anticipation that some will fail OCS.

Any thoughts on this?

[Borhas]

holy crap I have to work out way harder

What about the academic aspects? 'Not bare minimums, but instead what it would take to be competitive.

Would speaking Persian or Spanish help?

[Kikero]

Maybe this is a stupid question (0L here, so forgive me), but when is the proper time to apply? After you pass the bar? After graduation, but before the bar exam? 3L year?

[blueskies]

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[ijmiddleton]

In your experience, how many JAG recruits had no prior military experience? Additionally, for those recruits without prior service what opportunities are offered to them in regards to moving up the ranks? Thanks.

Most, in fact the vast majority of the JAG Candidates have no prior military experience. For those who were previously enlisted or officers of other specialties, there are not specific advantages, but I'm sure there is an intangible "street cred" factor.

[ijmiddleton]

I've been out of college for about three years now and applied for law school this cycle. I'm going to defer for a year. Is it true that the only two times you can possibly apply are as a senior in college or as a current law student? Would it be impossible for me to apply during my law school deferral year and attend OCS the summer before 1L?

You can apply, however depending on when you matriculate, it might be too late for this cycle (Summer 2012 OCS is a done deal). If your deferral has you starting class in fall 2013, apply in the fall for Summer 2013 OCS.

[ijmiddleton]

Maybe this is a stupid question (0L here, so forgive me), but when is the proper time to apply? After you pass the bar? After graduation, but before the bar exam? 3L year?

not a stupid question at all. There are different tracks for the different time you apply. You can apply your senior year of undergrad all the way up to your 2L year as a PLC candidate (easier selection rates). If you wait till 3L, you must pass the bar before you can apply as an OCC candidate (more difficult selection rates). Both OCC and PLC have the exact same curriculum at OCS, its just a different administrative track to the same goal.

[ijmiddleton]

The Air Force and Navy seem a bit more clear about their selection rates (in that they are under 10%). Does the USMC have any definitive numbers or guesstimates for law contracts that are picked by the selection board for OCS vs those that are rejected? Do you have any anecdotal thoughts or guesstimates?

I'm guessing the number USMC rate is a little bit higher because 1) the physical requirements probably drive down the # of applicants, and 2) there must be some "extra" people selected by the board with the anticipation that some will fail OCS.

Any thoughts on this?

Presently, it is extremely difficult and competitive to get selected. The rates vary from class to class, but in the past couple years, the rates have reflected what you have heard about the other services as well. We do over-write contracts due to attrition at OCS, but even so, the Marine Corps is a much smaller service, thus a smaller SJA/JAG Corps.

[dfmmalaw]

I have been searching numerous threads looking for someone that may be able to answer a question I have, and I think you may that person! After reading your thread, I would like to know from an OSO perspective what my history would look like to you in an interview.

Age: 29

Law School: Nova Southeastern University (Graduated in ’10)

Scholastic Involvement:
1) Founding member of my school’s Toastmasters club (Nova chapter)
2) Was selected for and spoke on behalf of Georgia State University Law (where I was a transient student my 3L year) on firearms and toolmark evidence at the annual forensic conference in Dalian, China
3) As a teacher’s assistant as a 3L I contributed to a book on “legal knowledge for college students” written by my advanced criminal trial advocacy professor

Legal Experience:
1) Paralegal at a securities fraud/consumer protection law firm (2 years)
2) Clinic at State Prosecutor’s Office (tried misdemeanor cases as lead counsel) my 1st semester of 3L year. Best experience of my life! God bless the Third Year Practice Act.

Community Involvement:
1) I am a big brother (in Big Brothers-Big Sisters) of a 15 year old named Bailey and have been a big part of his life for the past year and a half.
2) I am the founder of a non-profit (M.A.T.U.R.E=Martial Arts Training and Understanding while Returning to Education) established to help troubled youth turn their lives around.
3) I volunteered as a Guardian Ad Litem with the Truancy Intervention Program in Atlanta, Georgia

Family: Wife, no children

Work History:
Coming out of law school I was hired as a Criminal Justice instructor and program director at college in Norcross, GA. After a year, I was hired by another small college as the Director of Education. I am currently working in that position, leading two program directors and 17 instructors. The pay in my current job is great, and I would be taking a pay cut to join JAG, but I could not think of anything that I want more than to be a JAG in the USMC. I love the USMC’s physical, moral and intellectual demands and more importantly I want to serve my country. I have had a good time as an instructor but I see an incredible future in the JAG program. I would like to one day prosecute federally and believe that the USMC’s JAG can provide me that opportunity in the future. I am not looking for a four year stint but instead a 20+ year career.

1) Moral – I arrested and plead guilty to a DUI when I was 19 years old. I was also arrested but had the charges dropped for a drug charge when I was 15. The DUI was completely my fault and something I have spent my entire life trying to make up for. I hope that others can see as clearly as I can how it has shaped my life for the better and made me the man I am today.

2) Academic – I dropped out of high school, got my GED, went to community college, then a four year university, and then finally law school. I never took the SAT, so I assume that means I must take the ASVAB. I scored a 152 on the LSAT, my GPA in law school was a 2.7, and I will be taking the bar exam in July.

3) Physical – I can complete each of the physical requirements you listed at a 300 score level. I am a competitive Mixed Martial Artist so my training regimen is quite rigorous (especially come fight camp).

4) Medical – I am 29, so this may be a problem. Also, I had my ACL repaired when I was 20, a sacroiliac joint fixation to decrease hyper mobility, and my shoulder labrum tissue cleaned out and reattached where there was a minor tear last year. This does not hinder me physically from training or competing. Will the OSO and accession board take this into consideration?

Sorry to be so long winded, but I want to put it all on the table and appreciate you weighing in.

[dfmmalaw]

I have been searching numerous threads looking for someone that may be able to answer a question I have, and I think you may that person! After reading your thread, I would like to know from an OSO perspective what my history would look like to you in an interview.

Age: 29

Law School: Nova Southeastern University (Graduated in ’10)

Scholastic Involvement:
1) Founding member of my school’s Toastmasters club (Nova chapter)
2) Was selected for and spoke on behalf of Georgia State University Law (where I was a transient student my 3L year) on firearms and toolmark evidence at the annual forensic conference in Dalian, China
3) As a teacher’s assistant as a 3L I contributed to a book on “legal knowledge for college students” written by my advanced criminal trial advocacy professor

Legal Experience:
1) Paralegal at a securities fraud/consumer protection law firm (2 years)
2) Clinic at State Prosecutor’s Office (tried misdemeanor cases as lead counsel) my 1st semester of 3L year. Best experience of my life! God bless the Third Year Practice Act.

Community Involvement:
1) I am a big brother (in Big Brothers-Big Sisters) of a 15 year old named Bailey and have been a big part of his life for the past year and a half.
2) I am the founder of a non-profit (M.A.T.U.R.E=Martial Arts Training and Understanding while Returning to Education) established to help troubled youth turn their lives around.
3) I volunteered as a Guardian Ad Litem with the Truancy Intervention Program in Atlanta, Georgia

Family: Wife, no children

Work History:
Coming out of law school I was hired as a Criminal Justice instructor and program director at college in Norcross, GA. After a year, I was hired by another small college as the Director of Education. I am currently working in that position, leading two program directors and 17 instructors. The pay in my current job is great, and I would be taking a pay cut to join JAG, but I could not think of anything that I want more than to be a JAG in the USMC. I love the USMC’s physical, moral and intellectual demands and more importantly I want to serve my country. I have had a good time as an instructor but I see an incredible future in the JAG program. I would like to one day prosecute federally and believe that the USMC’s JAG can provide me that opportunity in the future. I am not looking for a four year stint but instead a 20+ year career.

1) Moral – I arrested and plead guilty to a DUI when I was 19 years old. I was also arrested but had the charges dropped for a drug charge when I was 15. The DUI was completely my fault and something I have spent my entire life trying to make up for. I hope that others can see as clearly as I can how it has shaped my life for the better and made me the man I am today.

2) Academic – I dropped out of high school, got my GED, went to community college, then a four year university, and then finally law school. I never took the SAT, so I assume that means I must take the ASVAB. I scored a 152 on the LSAT, my GPA in law school was a 2.7, and I will be taking the bar exam in July.

3) Physical – I can complete each of the physical requirements you listed at a 300 score level. I am a competitive Mixed Martial Artist so my training regimen is quite rigorous (especially come fight camp).

4) Medical – I am 29, so this may be a problem. Also, I had my ACL repaired when I was 20, a sacroiliac joint fixation to decrease hyper mobility, and my shoulder labrum tissue cleaned out and reattached where there was a minor tear last year. This does not hinder me physically from training or competing. Will the OSO and accession board take this into consideration?

Sorry to be so long winded, but I want to put it all on the table and appreciate you weighing in.

I apologize for the crappy grammar and mising words, but I am tired as hell and need to hit the sack

[shintopig]

I have a quick question. I'm perhaps more interested in Army JAG, but I'm keeping my options open to all the opportunities available. My question is:

I'm looking into NROTC during Law School. Are there significant scholarship opportunities available if I join NROTC? Are they difficult to get? Thanks.

[shock259]

Not to bust your bubble dfmmalaw, but I believe you have to be 28 at the time of commissioning. There are waivers, but I am told they are very hard to get (although the OSO could explain in more detail I'm sure). My OSO seemed reluctant that I was going to have to get a waiver for one-time drug use because of the competitiveness of the program. It's scary out there.

Good luck to you regardless.

[ijmiddleton]

I have been searching numerous threads looking for someone that may be able to answer a question I have, and I think you may that person! After reading your thread, I would like to know from an OSO perspective what my history would look like to you in an interview.

Age: 29

Law School: Nova Southeastern University (Graduated in ’10)

Scholastic Involvement:
1) Founding member of my school’s Toastmasters club (Nova chapter)
2) Was selected for and spoke on behalf of Georgia State University Law (where I was a transient student my 3L year) on firearms and toolmark evidence at the annual forensic conference in Dalian, China
3) As a teacher’s assistant as a 3L I contributed to a book on “legal knowledge for college students” written by my advanced criminal trial advocacy professor

Legal Experience:
1) Paralegal at a securities fraud/consumer protection law firm (2 years)
2) Clinic at State Prosecutor’s Office (tried misdemeanor cases as lead counsel) my 1st semester of 3L year. Best experience of my life! God bless the Third Year Practice Act.

Community Involvement:
1) I am a big brother (in Big Brothers-Big Sisters) of a 15 year old named Bailey and have been a big part of his life for the past year and a half.
2) I am the founder of a non-profit (M.A.T.U.R.E=Martial Arts Training and Understanding while Returning to Education) established to help troubled youth turn their lives around.
3) I volunteered as a Guardian Ad Litem with the Truancy Intervention Program in Atlanta, Georgia

Family: Wife, no children

Work History:
Coming out of law school I was hired as a Criminal Justice instructor and program director at college in Norcross, GA. After a year, I was hired by another small college as the Director of Education. I am currently working in that position, leading two program directors and 17 instructors. The pay in my current job is great, and I would be taking a pay cut to join JAG, but I could not think of anything that I want more than to be a JAG in the USMC. I love the USMC’s physical, moral and intellectual demands and more importantly I want to serve my country. I have had a good time as an instructor but I see an incredible future in the JAG program. I would like to one day prosecute federally and believe that the USMC’s JAG can provide me that opportunity in the future. I am not looking for a four year stint but instead a 20+ year career.

1) Moral – I arrested and plead guilty to a DUI when I was 19 years old. I was also arrested but had the charges dropped for a drug charge when I was 15. The DUI was completely my fault and something I have spent my entire life trying to make up for. I hope that others can see as clearly as I can how it has shaped my life for the better and made me the man I am today.

2) Academic – I dropped out of high school, got my GED, went to community college, then a four year university, and then finally law school. I never took the SAT, so I assume that means I must take the ASVAB. I scored a 152 on the LSAT, my GPA in law school was a 2.7, and I will be taking the bar exam in July.

3) Physical – I can complete each of the physical requirements you listed at a 300 score level. I am a competitive Mixed Martial Artist so my training regimen is quite rigorous (especially come fight camp).

4) Medical – I am 29, so this may be a problem. Also, I had my ACL repaired when I was 20, a sacroiliac joint fixation to decrease hyper mobility, and my shoulder labrum tissue cleaned out and reattached where there was a minor tear last year. This does not hinder me physically from training or competing. Will the OSO and accession board take this into consideration?

Sorry to be so long winded, but I want to put it all on the table and appreciate you weighing in.

So when we look at a candidate, we try to look at "Red weights" (Bad) and "Green weights" (Good)... so with you

Red:
DUI (Big problem but not insurmountable by itself)
Drug charge (not a huge deal in of itself, but coupled with the DUI it becomes worse, the good thing is that you were so young, likely it will be
Age (another big problem but somewhat offset by your PFT if, in fact, you can run a 300).
Low GPA
Low LSAT
Need ASVAB
Shoulder Injury (maybe the biggest problem, the Marine Corps has a huge problem with shoulder injuries. assuming the other issues are waived you would need to be flown out to Quantico in order to have your shoulder evaluated by their physical therapist.

Green:
PFT (if you actually can do a 300. Im not saying you are a lier, but I've learned in this job that many people are just not cognizant of what it takes to perform a 300 until they actually do one)
Extensive volunteering (highly regarded on the selection boards.

All of this being said, it will be very difficult for you to convince an OSO to work your package. If you do get your OSO on board, your chances of waiver approval are slim, and your chances of selection to attend OCS are slim to none.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but the military is getting smaller and it is becoming more and more difficult to get in.

[ijmiddleton]

I have a quick question. I'm perhaps more interested in Army JAG, but I'm keeping my options open to all the opportunities available. My question is:

I'm looking into NROTC during Law School. Are there significant scholarship opportunities available if I join NROTC? Are they difficult to get? Thanks.

There is no NROTC for law school. There is financial aid, but it is negligible considering law school tuition (~8k/year with service stipulations). If you are more interested in Army I suggest you pursue that. Marine Corps JAG is not for everyone. I do not mean this in a condescending way at all, but considering that you must complete the entire Marine Officer curriculum (i.e. OCS and The Basic School) and become a provisional rifle platoon commander prior to even talking about UCMJ I have found that it is important that you specifically want to be a Marine in order to really be successful in this program, otherwise the pain and work that goes into it is just not worth it.

hope that helps!

[ijmiddleton]

Not to bust your bubble dfmmalaw, but I believe you have to be 28 at the time of commissioning. There are waivers, but I am told they are very hard to get (although the OSO could explain in more detail I'm sure). My OSO seemed reluctant that I was going to have to get a waiver for one-time drug use because of the competitiveness of the program. It's scary out there.

Good luck to you regardless.

All very true. Todays recruiting environment is extremely competitive. While you can overcome an issue in one category with strengths in another, remember that there are a LOT of others applying with no issues in any category, so you really need to stand out to be competitive. Also remember (or be advised) that recruiting is cyclical, and that though it is difficult now, a year from now it may be much easier. I suggest staying in touch with your local OSO to keep a pulse on the "needs of the Marine Corps," the most important factor in how difficult it is to get selected.

[bigeast03]

Maybe this is a stupid question (0L here, so forgive me), but when is the proper time to apply? After you pass the bar? After graduation, but before the bar exam? 3L year?

not a stupid question at all. There are different tracks for the different time you apply. You can apply your senior year of undergrad all the way up to your 2L year as a PLC candidate (easier selection rates). If you wait till 3L, you must pass the bar before you can apply as an OCC candidate (more difficult selection rates). Both OCC and PLC have the exact same curriculum at OCS, its just a different administrative track to the same goal.

Related, possibly dumb question: If you apply before 2L year, when do you know whether you are accepted? What is the application process like?

[dfmmalaw]

I guess honesty comes with its price. Regardless, I am glad you have told me my obstacles and hopefully I can explain some of my "Reds" to the extent of convincing my OSO that my desire outweighs my limitations. As far as the PT goes, I would make sure that I perform at a 300 level many times before trying to tackle it at OCS. Like you said, I still have to make it to OCS. Does my work experience since law school count as a "Green?"

[puppylaw]

Thanks a lot for answering these questions. It's really helpful.

I'll be starting law school this fall. What advice do you have for first year students interested in JAG? I'm not sure JAG is for me- what can I do to learn more aside from just reading online?

[ijmiddleton]

Maybe this is a stupid question (0L here, so forgive me), but when is the proper time to apply? After you pass the bar? After graduation, but before the bar exam? 3L year?

not a stupid question at all. There are different tracks for the different time you apply. You can apply your senior year of undergrad all the way up to your 2L year as a PLC candidate (easier selection rates). If you wait till 3L, you must pass the bar before you can apply as an OCC candidate (more difficult selection rates). Both OCC and PLC have the exact same curriculum at OCS, its just a different administrative track to the same goal.

Related, possibly dumb question: If you apply before 2L year, when do you know whether you are accepted? What is the application process like?

No worries man, not a dumb question at all. If you are sure that you want to do this, the best thing you can do is apply as early as possible. If you are a senior in undergrad, or a 1L it is too late for this year, but talk to an OSO now to get ready for next summer. Each district holds their selection boards at different times, however all selection boards for a given summer are concluded in April, for shipping in May/June of that same year.

So hypothetically, you are a 0L, you talk to your OSO now, he contracts you (not long term binding, but reserves you a spot on a selection board) in July of this summer for next summer, and your district holds a board sometime between then and April, 2013. If you are selected, you ship early summer 2013, if you pass OCS, you get commissioned there at OCS and return to law school as an IRR 2ndLieutenant. You do not get pay and benefits until you graduate and pass the bar, but you are eligible for financial aid (modest, ~8k/year) and you are acruing time-in-service so that when you do start getting a paycheck you will be ahead of your peers in pay.

Thats the short answer, let me know if you want me to elaborate on any point in particular

[ijmiddleton]

Thanks a lot for answering these questions. It's really helpful.

I'll be starting law school this fall. What advice do you have for first year students interested in JAG? I'm not sure JAG is for me- what can I do to learn more aside from just reading online?

Many law schools will host a JAG panel where attorneys from the different services hold a Q&A for prospective applicants. In addition, many services will hold OCI at law schools. If you see neither of these things happening, contact your local OSO and ask about getting in touch with a practicing Marine attorney. It isnt hard to do.

[dfmmalaw]

Not to bust your bubble dfmmalaw, but I believe you have to be 28 at the time of commissioning. There are waivers, but I am told they are very hard to get (although the OSO could explain in more detail I'm sure). My OSO seemed reluctant that I was going to have to get a waiver for one-time drug use because of the competitiveness of the program. It's scary out there.

Good luck to you regardless.

All very true. Todays recruiting environment is extremely competitive. While you can overcome an issue in one category with strengths in another, remember that there are a LOT of others applying with no issues in any category, so you really need to stand out to be competitive. Also remember (or be advised) that recruiting is cyclical, and that though it is difficult now, a year from now it may be much easier. I suggest staying in touch with your local OSO to keep a pulse on the "needs of the Marine Corps," the most important factor in how difficult it is to get selected.

Thank you. Is there anything that makes a candidate stand out more than others if they have some limiting factors? Is my work experience since law school a "Green?"