What's the difference between LR and a lesser journal?

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NYC2014
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What's the difference between LR and a lesser journal?

Postby NYC2014 » Fri Apr 13, 2012 7:48 pm

My school had me fill out an online form giving my preference of journals. I had to choose between LR, International Law Journal, Law and Policy, etc, and rank them in order of preference.

Is there any reason for me (or for anyone, really) not to choose law review as my 1st? I did, of course, but I'm just wondering why it's even an option. (And also, what exactly the difference is between LR and the others?)

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monkey85
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Re: What's the difference between LR and a lesser journal?

Postby monkey85 » Fri Apr 13, 2012 8:07 pm

The work you do internally as a member of a journal is all the same - so, for you, the journal doesn't matter.

But for employers and other third-parties the LR name is a signal of a good GPA (assuming your competition weights heavily towards GPA, rather than writing component). You want LR for external recognition.

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kapital98
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Re: What's the difference between LR and a lesser journal?

Postby kapital98 » Fri Apr 13, 2012 8:33 pm

NYC2014 wrote:My school had me fill out an online form giving my preference of journals. I had to choose between LR, International Law Journal, Law and Policy, etc, and rank them in order of preference.

Is there any reason for me (or for anyone, really) not to choose law review as my 1st? I did, of course, but I'm just wondering why it's even an option. (And also, what exactly the difference is between LR and the others?)


There is a big difference between journals. With my school each journal publishes a different amount per year (ranging from 2 times per year all the way up to 6 times.) The primary journal is a huge commitment and requires an incredible amount of time bluebooking footnotes and mandatory office hours. Lesser journals take only a fraction of the time and don't always have mandatory office hours.

Some people don't want the time commitment of LR. They might just want a lesser journal or to do multiple activities (ex: Moot Court + Secondary Journal.)

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kalvano
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Re: What's the difference between LR and a lesser journal?

Postby kalvano » Fri Apr 13, 2012 9:18 pm

LR at my school publishes several times a year, and therefore has a decent amount of cite checks for staff editors, like 7 or 8 maybe? My journal only had 3 all year.

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BarbellDreams
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Re: What's the difference between LR and a lesser journal?

Postby BarbellDreams » Sat Apr 14, 2012 9:20 am

As a member of the top secondary at my school: Law Review >>>>>>>>>>>a million more times>>>>>>>> secondaries.

Law Review is the holy grail, its all that matter. You have that on your resume for OCI and you're set. Anything less than that and you'll fighting for interviews.

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Lincoln
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Re: What's the difference between LR and a lesser journal?

Postby Lincoln » Sat Apr 14, 2012 9:58 am

BarbellDreams wrote:As a member of the top secondary at my school: Law Review >>>>>>>>>>>a million more times>>>>>>>> secondaries.

Law Review is the holy grail, its all that matter. You have that on your resume for OCI and you're set. Anything less than that and you'll fighting for interviews.


That's a bit of an exaggeration. I agree that if you get LR you should accept (and possibly adjust your caseload accordingly), but to say that LR is the one determining factor in the job market is disingenuous. At my school there are plenty of people not on LR who got jobs with better firms than people who are on LR. It's helpful, but not the be-all and end-all of law school.

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BarbellDreams
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Re: What's the difference between LR and a lesser journal?

Postby BarbellDreams » Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:08 am

Lincoln wrote:
BarbellDreams wrote:As a member of the top secondary at my school: Law Review >>>>>>>>>>>a million more times>>>>>>>> secondaries.

Law Review is the holy grail, its all that matter. You have that on your resume for OCI and you're set. Anything less than that and you'll fighting for interviews.


That's a bit of an exaggeration. I agree that if you get LR you should accept (and possibly adjust your caseload accordingly), but to say that LR is the one determining factor in the job market is disingenuous. At my school there are plenty of people not on LR who got jobs with better firms than people who are on LR. It's helpful, but not the be-all and end-all of law school.


Let me adjust my comments by saying at any non t-14 Law review is truly the holy grail and will seperate you from the pack by a wide margin. At my T2's OCI people on LR had 15+ interviews and basically got to choose their firm while those without LR struggled to get any interviews and barely got 1 offer. Hell, people who WROTE ON to LR at my OCI with significantly worse grades than those who graded on to secondary journals got way better jobs.

Oh yea, I mad :)

kaiser
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Re: What's the difference between LR and a lesser journal?

Postby kaiser » Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:24 am

Whether the gap between LR and secondary journals is a big one depends on the school you go to. I'm a transfer so I have a bit of perspective on the divide at my new and old school. At my old school (T25), the hard line between LR and other journals was pretty huge in that it provides employers an easy way of sifting through applicants and creating a pile of possible candidates, and another pile to toss away. That isn't to say that no one outside of LR kids got biglaw at my old school. But the line seemed to be pretty clear since essentially all the LR kids were set, yet there were top 10-15% kids on secondary journals or without journals who still had trouble.

At my new school, the gap between LR and some of the best secondary journals (the more competitive ones to get onto) is much less significant. Sure, my secondary journal isn't made up of the top 10% kids, but its mostly made up of kids in the top 25%. At a school where top 25% still leaves you totally set, the difference in how employers view us as opposed to LR is pretty negligible. The vast majority of journal members are set to go to the exact same caliber of firms that the LR kids go to. Sure, the V5 representation may be a bit more sparse (we have a few Cravath, Skadden, etc. kids, but I'd imagine LR has more), but overall its not really that different.

Moral of the story is this: The better the school, the less big a deal LR becomes should you choose to do a secondary journal

keg411
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Re: What's the difference between LR and a lesser journal?

Postby keg411 » Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:28 am

BarbellDreams wrote:
Lincoln wrote:
BarbellDreams wrote:As a member of the top secondary at my school: Law Review >>>>>>>>>>>a million more times>>>>>>>> secondaries.

Law Review is the holy grail, its all that matter. You have that on your resume for OCI and you're set. Anything less than that and you'll fighting for interviews.


That's a bit of an exaggeration. I agree that if you get LR you should accept (and possibly adjust your caseload accordingly), but to say that LR is the one determining factor in the job market is disingenuous. At my school there are plenty of people not on LR who got jobs with better firms than people who are on LR. It's helpful, but not the be-all and end-all of law school.


Let me adjust my comments by saying at any non t-14 Law review is truly the holy grail and will seperate you from the pack by a wide margin. At my T2's OCI people on LR had 15+ interviews and basically got to choose their firm while those without LR struggled to get any interviews and barely got 1 offer. Hell, people who WROTE ON to LR at my OCI with significantly worse grades than those who graded on to secondary journals got way better jobs.

Oh yea, I mad :)


I basically transferred because I didn't make LR and was terrified I wouldn't get a job without it. Then I found out other people with top grades and secondaries did fine. But our LR wasn't grade-on at all and there were people with top 1-2% grades that didn't make it, and people who were closer to median that did.

de5igual
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Re: What's the difference between LR and a lesser journal?

Postby de5igual » Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:33 am

I think LR matters more and more the further down you spiral from the top (school ranking-wise). At UT, there definitely is a prestige associated with LR, but job opps (except maybe a handful + clerkships) never really hinged on law review and were more correlated with grades. Of course, people with high grades tended to also be on law review, but for those with similarly situated grades who opted out or who didn't get on, job opportunities did not differ significantly, if at all, from the people on law review. I'd imagine at higher ranking schools, the difference would be even more negligible.

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BarbellDreams
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Re: What's the difference between LR and a lesser journal?

Postby BarbellDreams » Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:39 am

f0bolous wrote:I think LR matters more and more the further down you spiral from the top (school ranking-wise). At UT, there definitely is a prestige associated with LR, but job opps (except maybe a handful + clerkships) never really hinged on law review and were more correlated with grades. Of course, people with high grades tended to also be on law review, but for those with similarly situated grades who opted out or who didn't get on, job opportunities did not differ significantly, if at all, from the people on law review. I'd imagine at higher ranking schools, the difference would be even more negligible.


Well put, this is my exact point. At Columbia for example not being on LR isn't a huge deal as you're likely landing a solid gig no matter what. At Marquette not being on LR = thoughts of dropping out.

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Lincoln
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Re: What's the difference between LR and a lesser journal?

Postby Lincoln » Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:46 am

BarbellDreams wrote:
f0bolous wrote:I think LR matters more and more the further down you spiral from the top (school ranking-wise). At UT, there definitely is a prestige associated with LR, but job opps (except maybe a handful + clerkships) never really hinged on law review and were more correlated with grades. Of course, people with high grades tended to also be on law review, but for those with similarly situated grades who opted out or who didn't get on, job opportunities did not differ significantly, if at all, from the people on law review. I'd imagine at higher ranking schools, the difference would be even more negligible.


Well put, this is my exact point. At Columbia for example not being on LR isn't a huge deal as you're likely landing a solid gig no matter what. At Marquette not being on LR = thoughts of dropping out.


FTFY

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DrGuano
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Re: What's the difference between LR and a lesser journal?

Postby DrGuano » Sat Apr 14, 2012 12:12 pm

kapital98 wrote:
NYC2014 wrote:My school had me fill out an online form giving my preference of journals. I had to choose between LR, International Law Journal, Law and Policy, etc, and rank them in order of preference.

Is there any reason for me (or for anyone, really) not to choose law review as my 1st? I did, of course, but I'm just wondering why it's even an option. (And also, what exactly the difference is between LR and the others?)


There is a big difference between journals. With my school each journal publishes a different amount per year (ranging from 2 times per year all the way up to 6 times.) The primary journal is a huge commitment and requires an incredible amount of time bluebooking footnotes and mandatory office hours. Lesser journals take only a fraction of the time and don't always have mandatory office hours.

Some people don't want the time commitment of LR. They might just want a lesser journal or to do multiple activities (ex: Moot Court + Secondary Journal.)


Yeah, okay. That's like the quote from Liar Liar...

Kid: "My teacher says true beauty is on the inside."

Jim Carrey: "That's just something that ugly people say to make themselves feel better."

No one ranks LR lower than another journal, unless they know they have no shot. Any other rationale, like the one listed above, is just BS trying to ease the blow of not making LR. Sorry to be so harsh, but let's call a spade a spade.

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BarbellDreams
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Re: What's the difference between LR and a lesser journal?

Postby BarbellDreams » Sat Apr 14, 2012 1:04 pm

DrGuano wrote:
kapital98 wrote:
NYC2014 wrote:My school had me fill out an online form giving my preference of journals. I had to choose between LR, International Law Journal, Law and Policy, etc, and rank them in order of preference.

Is there any reason for me (or for anyone, really) not to choose law review as my 1st? I did, of course, but I'm just wondering why it's even an option. (And also, what exactly the difference is between LR and the others?)


There is a big difference between journals. With my school each journal publishes a different amount per year (ranging from 2 times per year all the way up to 6 times.) The primary journal is a huge commitment and requires an incredible amount of time bluebooking footnotes and mandatory office hours. Lesser journals take only a fraction of the time and don't always have mandatory office hours.

Some people don't want the time commitment of LR. They might just want a lesser journal or to do multiple activities (ex: Moot Court + Secondary Journal.)


Yeah, okay. That's like the quote from Liar Liar...

Kid: "My teacher says true beauty is on the inside."

Jim Carrey: "That's just something that ugly people say to make themselves feel better."

No one ranks LR lower than another journal, unless they know they have no shot. Any other rationale, like the one listed above, is just BS trying to ease the blow of not making LR. Sorry to be so harsh, but let's call a spade a spade.


Nice, +1 to all of this. I have never ever heard of someone being offered law review and rejecting it. If you're that stupid you don't deserve OCI.

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traehekat
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Re: What's the difference between LR and a lesser journal?

Postby traehekat » Sat Apr 14, 2012 4:38 pm

The difference is that law review is valued much more by employers, but will also typically (although not always) require much more work than secondary journals. As to whether or not the high probability of more work is worth it, the answer is emphatically "yes."

adonai
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Re: What's the difference between LR and a lesser journal?

Postby adonai » Sat Apr 14, 2012 5:12 pm

At lower ranked schools, is it pretty much pointless to do a secondary journal then?

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romothesavior
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Re: What's the difference between LR and a lesser journal?

Postby romothesavior » Sat Apr 14, 2012 5:17 pm

At my school, law review really isn't that much more work.

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kalvano
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Re: What's the difference between LR and a lesser journal?

Postby kalvano » Sat Apr 14, 2012 5:21 pm

adonai wrote:At lower ranked schools, is it pretty much pointless to do a secondary journal then?


Quite the opposite: the lower ranked the school, the more necessary it is to stand out. Even a secondary journal at most schools require some combination of grades and writing ability to be accepted onto. Employers won't be as impressed as they would with flagship law review, but a secondary journal can still serve to let them know that you have some writing and research ability.

Plus, there is the chance of being published, which is a pretty nice boost, even if it's on a secondary journal.

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Blindmelon
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Re: What's the difference between LR and a lesser journal?

Postby Blindmelon » Sat Apr 14, 2012 6:16 pm

LR is horrid and I probably spend the same amount of time on LR as my other classes combined (until finals). That being said, I think it was a pretty huge bump at OCI and is almost required for a federal clerkship from my school (T25). Almost everyone on LR who wanted something from OCI got it, but those with similar or better grades on secondary journals got nothing.

Echo the above though, the better the school, the less of a big deal it is for employment (unless you want to clerk).

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romothesavior
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Re: What's the difference between LR and a lesser journal?

Postby romothesavior » Sat Apr 14, 2012 6:27 pm

I don't understand how you guys could spend so much time on LR unless you're a board member (in which case thats all on you). Okay yeah, note writing sucks, but its just a few days of hell before deadlines and its over in the winter/early spring of 2L. Checks and pulls aren't bad at all. A few hours of work twice a semester here at WUSTL. Either your schools are just way more intense (which I doubt) or you guys are LR gunnin. Both semesters I did LR, intramural moot court, and wrote a seminar paper, and I had time to drink beer and go out and waste countless hours on TLS. Law school, and law review in particular, really ain't so bad folks. Lets avoid the law student martyr mentality.

OP, do LR if you can. If you don't want lots of work, just do the bare minimum and reap the benefits. Its really not much work.

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romothesavior
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Re: What's the difference between LR and a lesser journal?

Postby romothesavior » Sat Apr 14, 2012 6:34 pm

ETA: Dont get me wrong, law review and journals can general suck because they are mindless academic circlejerking busywork. But its not really a lot of work at the end of the day.

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BarbellDreams
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Re: What's the difference between LR and a lesser journal?

Postby BarbellDreams » Sat Apr 14, 2012 6:48 pm

romothesavior wrote:ETA: Dont get me wrong, law review and journals can general suck because they are mindless academic circlejerking busywork. But its not really a lot of work at the end of the day.


To be fair all secondaries are different. My secondary had 6 cite and sources while other secondaries had 2.

keg411
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Re: What's the difference between LR and a lesser journal?

Postby keg411 » Sat Apr 14, 2012 6:57 pm

BarbellDreams wrote:
romothesavior wrote:ETA: Dont get me wrong, law review and journals can general suck because they are mindless academic circlejerking busywork. But its not really a lot of work at the end of the day.


To be fair all secondaries are different. My secondary had 6 cite and sources while other secondaries had 2.


The work on my secondary was a joke. No mandatory note and a couple of source/cite checks of maybe 10-15 cites each, and a blog post each semester (second of which I got out of due to massive ed board-related drama which happened to coincide with when I had my blog post due).

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romothesavior
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Re: What's the difference between LR and a lesser journal?

Postby romothesavior » Sat Apr 14, 2012 7:01 pm

BarbellDreams wrote:
romothesavior wrote:ETA: Dont get me wrong, law review and journals can general suck because they are mindless academic circlejerking busywork. But its not really a lot of work at the end of the day.


To be fair all secondaries are different. My secondary had 6 cite and sources while other secondaries had 2.

I was more talking law review, not secondaries. So i guess its generally applicable. Law review does a bit more work each semester than the journals at my school but its still not a lot besides the note. Unless you're the EIC or something similar, I have trouble seeing how LR is more work than classes. Just being some staff editor, or even a minor 3L position, is not hard work.

GMVarun
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Re: What's the difference between LR and a lesser journal?

Postby GMVarun » Sat Apr 14, 2012 7:05 pm

romothesavior wrote:I don't understand how you guys could spend so much time on LR unless you're a board member (in which case thats all on you). Okay yeah, note writing sucks, but its just a few days of hell before deadlines and its over in the winter/early spring of 2L. Checks and pulls aren't bad at all. A few hours of work twice a semester here at WUSTL. Either your schools are just way more intense (which I doubt) or you guys are LR gunnin.


I think the amount of LR work depends on the journal's internal publication method and how many issues your LR puts out. It seems WUSTL puts out 4 issues. Michigan, on the other hand, puts out 8 issues. During the fall, AEs have either a citation exercise or a source gathering exercise due every week, until a week or two before finals. These can take anywhere from 3-4 hours to 9-10 hours depending on the types of sources and how fast of a bluebooker you are. On top of this, in the fall, AEs have to write a note. In the winter, you either continue this schedule, and do not have to worry about a Note, or you become part of LR board. Any position on LR board, I think, is more work than being an AE. It is definitely manageable, but it seems to be a bit more than you guys.




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