Today was "Match Day" for med students...

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LawBrah
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Re: Today was "Match Day" for med students...

Postby LawBrah » Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:24 pm

lobolawyer wrote:
I still think law is on par with medicine.

However, our decline started with the post 60s defunding of public interest positions. Up to that point, lawyers could earn a similar salary in public interest or government that they could in pvt pract. and many of these jobs were available. Combined with the explosion of tuition prices and over saturation of the market for pvt attys in the past 20 yrs, we now have an undeserved public sector and too many attys vying for the same jobs.



How so? Med school grads are basically guaranteed at least $160k 3 years post graduation (and this is worst case scenario if they do poorly in med school and can only match into family med or pediatrics or psych). Those that do average can go into IM and do a fellowship like Cards or GI and earn $300k easy. Not to mention those that do well who can go into Orthopedics, Ophthalmology, Neurosurgery, Radiology, Plastic Surgery, etc. and get $500k+. The job security is fantastic as well.

Also, unlike law, it doesn't matter where you go to school. Someone from podunk StateU can go into Orthopedics or Radiology if they do well....it's not like you have to go to Hopkins or Harvard. With law you basically have to go to a top 14 school AND do very well to only get paid what crappy med school grads get. And on top of that you have the pressure to perform well in order to advance in your career. This is not the case with med...just go through residency and don't do something extremely stupid/incompetent and then make $$$. Oh yeah and the AMA keeps a tight lock on the # of practicing physicians so there's always demand and little competition....

Sorry but med >>>> law. I only wish I realized this earlier.

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ph14
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Re: Today was "Match Day" for med students...

Postby ph14 » Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:26 pm

LawBrah wrote:
lobolawyer wrote:
I still think law is on par with medicine.

However, our decline started with the post 60s defunding of public interest positions. Up to that point, lawyers could earn a similar salary in public interest or government that they could in pvt pract. and many of these jobs were available. Combined with the explosion of tuition prices and over saturation of the market for pvt attys in the past 20 yrs, we now have an undeserved public sector and too many attys vying for the same jobs.



How so? Med school grads are basically guaranteed at least $160k 3 years post graduation (and this is worst case scenario if they do poorly in med school and can only match into family med or pediatrics or psych). Those that do average can go into IM and do a fellowship like Cards or GI and earn $300k easy. Not to mention those that do well who can go into Orthopedics, Ophthalmology, Neurosurgery, Radiology, Plastic Surgery, etc. and get $500k+. The job security is fantastic as well.

Also, unlike law, it doesn't matter where you go to school. Someone from podunk StateU can go into Orthopedics or Radiology if they do well....it's not like you have to go to Hopkins or Harvard. With law you basically have to go to a top 14 school AND do very well to only get paid what crappy med school grads get. And on top of that you have the pressure to perform well in order to advance in your career. This is not the case with med...just go through residency and don't do something extremely stupid/incompetent and then make $$$. Oh yeah and the AMA keeps a tight lock on the # of practicing physicians so there's always demand and little competition....

Sorry but med >>>> law. I only wish I realized this earlier.


Don't we all? At least we get to wear suits though.

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Borhas
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Re: Today was "Match Day" for med students...

Postby Borhas » Sat Mar 17, 2012 3:29 pm

lobolawyer wrote:Because we're intellectually superior. While the forefathers of doctors were putting leeches on George Washington's a$$, the forefathers of lawyers were busy writing the Constitution. 8)


yeah, looks like we peaked

lobolawyer
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Re: Today was "Match Day" for med students...

Postby lobolawyer » Sat Mar 17, 2012 4:09 pm

LawBrah wrote:
lobolawyer wrote:
I still think law is on par with medicine.

However, our decline started with the post 60s defunding of public interest positions. Up to that point, lawyers could earn a similar salary in public interest or government that they could in pvt pract. and many of these jobs were available. Combined with the explosion of tuition prices and over saturation of the market for pvt attys in the past 20 yrs, we now have an undeserved public sector and too many attys vying for the same jobs.



How so?
Med school grads are basically guaranteed at least $160k 3 years post graduation (and this is worst case scenario if they do poorly in med school and can only match into family med or pediatrics or psych). Those that do average can go into IM and do a fellowship like Cards or GI and earn $300k easy. Not to mention those that do well who can go into Orthopedics, Ophthalmology, Neurosurgery, Radiology, Plastic Surgery, etc. and get $500k+. The job security is fantastic as well.

Also, unlike law, it doesn't matter where you go to school. Someone from podunk StateU can go into Orthopedics or Radiology if they do well....it's not like you have to go to Hopkins or Harvard. With law you basically have to go to a top 14 school AND do very well to only get paid what crappy med school grads get. And on top of that you have the pressure to perform well in order to advance in your career. This is not the case with med...just go through residency and don't do something extremely stupid/incompetent and then make $$$. Oh yeah and the AMA keeps a tight lock on the # of practicing physicians so there's always demand and little competition....

Sorry but med >>>> law. I only wish I realized this earlier.


Name a doctor that has been the most powerful person in the free world a/k/a President of the United States? According to the BLS doctors make more than attorneys on average, but both are well compensated, and the actual/opportunity costs of Med Sch are greater. http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm#23-0000 and http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oes_nat.htm#29-0000.

Moreover, I was speaking more in terms of lay prestige and both professions regularly taking responsibility for life altering consequences for people. I honestly cannot think of a better profession, and I would choose law all over again. Both can lay claim to significant accomplishments and contributions to society, but I honestly believe lawyers' have been greater. And by any measure they're at a minimum peer professions in terms of accolades.

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TUP
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Re: Today was "Match Day" for med students...

Postby TUP » Sat Mar 17, 2012 4:12 pm

LawBrah wrote:
lobolawyer wrote:
I still think law is on par with medicine.

However, our decline started with the post 60s defunding of public interest positions. Up to that point, lawyers could earn a similar salary in public interest or government that they could in pvt pract. and many of these jobs were available. Combined with the explosion of tuition prices and over saturation of the market for pvt attys in the past 20 yrs, we now have an undeserved public sector and too many attys vying for the same jobs.



How so? Med school grads are basically guaranteed at least $160k 3 years post graduation (and this is worst case scenario if they do poorly in med school and can only match into family med or pediatrics or psych). Those that do average can go into IM and do a fellowship like Cards or GI and earn $300k easy. Not to mention those that do well who can go into Orthopedics, Ophthalmology, Neurosurgery, Radiology, Plastic Surgery, etc. and get $500k+. The job security is fantastic as well.

Also, unlike law, it doesn't matter where you go to school. Someone from podunk StateU can go into Orthopedics or Radiology if they do well....it's not like you have to go to Hopkins or Harvard. With law you basically have to go to a top 14 school AND do very well to only get paid what crappy med school grads get. And on top of that you have the pressure to perform well in order to advance in your career. This is not the case with med...just go through residency and don't do something extremely stupid/incompetent and then make $$$. Oh yeah and the AMA keeps a tight lock on the # of practicing physicians so there's always demand and little competition....

Sorry but med >>>> law. I only wish I realized this earlier.


I think you overrate how easy it is to get into a high-paying specialty. I looked at a post-bacc a long time ago and they post all these numbers FYI. You can ctrl-F the PDF and pull this all in a couple minutes. There are like 17k US MD grads and another 14k international/DO/etc. and another couple thousand grads that didn't match the prior year. Even just looking at the 17k number, they're fighting it out for less than 700 ortho spots, less than 1000 radiology spots, less than 400 derma spots, and less than 1500 anesthesiology spots. That's ~3500 residencies for the all-important ROAD specialties with 17K US MD graduates, and many of those international/DO grads score high enough on the USMLE to get spots themselves.

Some more numbers ... there are ~37k applicants to the match and just over 26k spots. Almost 3k are family med, another 2.5k+ pediatrics, and well over 5k IM ... all PCP specialties that don't pay great considering 300k debt capitalizing interest while you train. And before you mention it, no, not many get fellowships. There are another 2k gen med that will apply in that pool, and there are only a few hundred of each specialty.

Based on the numbers they publish it seems clear that anyone going to med school should be happy if they end up in PCP, because odds are you won't get a top specialty. Finally, you underestimate the nurturing/caring attitude/mentality medicine takes IMO.

ETA: I'm with you on prestige, though, and the previous post arguing presidents and whatnot is ridiculous. However, LOL at caring about prestige.

t14fanboy
Posts: 438
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Re: Today was "Match Day" for med students...

Postby t14fanboy » Sat Mar 17, 2012 4:15 pm

LawBrah wrote:
lobolawyer wrote:
I still think law is on par with medicine.

However, our decline started with the post 60s defunding of public interest positions. Up to that point, lawyers could earn a similar salary in public interest or government that they could in pvt pract. and many of these jobs were available. Combined with the explosion of tuition prices and over saturation of the market for pvt attys in the past 20 yrs, we now have an undeserved public sector and too many attys vying for the same jobs.



How so? Med school grads are basically guaranteed at least $160k 3 years post graduation (and this is worst case scenario if they do poorly in med school and can only match into family med or pediatrics or psych). Those that do average can go into IM and do a fellowship like Cards or GI and earn $300k easy. Not to mention those that do well who can go into Orthopedics, Ophthalmology, Neurosurgery, Radiology, Plastic Surgery, etc. and get $500k+. The job security is fantastic as well.

Also, unlike law, it doesn't matter where you go to school. Someone from podunk StateU can go into Orthopedics or Radiology if they do well....it's not like you have to go to Hopkins or Harvard. With law you basically have to go to a top 14 school AND do very well to only get paid what crappy med school grads get. And on top of that you have the pressure to perform well in order to advance in your career. This is not the case with med...just go through residency and don't do something extremely stupid/incompetent and then make $$$. Oh yeah and the AMA keeps a tight lock on the # of practicing physicians so there's always demand and little competition....

Sorry but med >>>> law. I only wish I realized this earlier.


That's because with the exception of Caribbean schools, even the lowest ranked (as if USNWR matters at all) medical school in the US is pretty hard to get into, at least a lot more than Cooley and its TTTTT brethren anyways.

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Julio_El_Chavo
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Re: Today was "Match Day" for med students...

Postby Julio_El_Chavo » Sat Mar 17, 2012 10:48 pm

lobolawyer wrote:Because we're intellectually superior. While the forefathers of doctors were putting leeches on George Washington's a$$, the forefathers of lawyers were busy writing the Constitution. 8)


I like this characterization of my field.

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Julio_El_Chavo
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Re: Today was "Match Day" for med students...

Postby Julio_El_Chavo » Sat Mar 17, 2012 10:50 pm

LawBrah wrote:
lobolawyer wrote:
I still think law is on par with medicine.

However, our decline started with the post 60s defunding of public interest positions. Up to that point, lawyers could earn a similar salary in public interest or government that they could in pvt pract. and many of these jobs were available. Combined with the explosion of tuition prices and over saturation of the market for pvt attys in the past 20 yrs, we now have an undeserved public sector and too many attys vying for the same jobs.



How so? Med school grads are basically guaranteed at least $160k 3 years post graduation (and this is worst case scenario if they do poorly in med school and can only match into family med or pediatrics or psych). Those that do average can go into IM and do a fellowship like Cards or GI and earn $300k easy. Not to mention those that do well who can go into Orthopedics, Ophthalmology, Neurosurgery, Radiology, Plastic Surgery, etc. and get $500k+. The job security is fantastic as well.

Also, unlike law, it doesn't matter where you go to school. Someone from podunk StateU can go into Orthopedics or Radiology if they do well....it's not like you have to go to Hopkins or Harvard. With law you basically have to go to a top 14 school AND do very well to only get paid what crappy med school grads get. And on top of that you have the pressure to perform well in order to advance in your career. This is not the case with med...just go through residency and don't do something extremely stupid/incompetent and then make $$$. Oh yeah and the AMA keeps a tight lock on the # of practicing physicians so there's always demand and little competition....

Sorry but med >>>> law. I only wish I realized this earlier.


I agree with most of the above. I think only about 10-15% of law students would have a legit shot at getting into med school.

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vamedic03
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Re: Today was "Match Day" for med students...

Postby vamedic03 » Sun Mar 18, 2012 11:39 am

LawBrah wrote:
lobolawyer wrote:
I still think law is on par with medicine.

However, our decline started with the post 60s defunding of public interest positions. Up to that point, lawyers could earn a similar salary in public interest or government that they could in pvt pract. and many of these jobs were available. Combined with the explosion of tuition prices and over saturation of the market for pvt attys in the past 20 yrs, we now have an undeserved public sector and too many attys vying for the same jobs.



How so? Med school grads are basically guaranteed at least $160k 3 years post graduation (and this is worst case scenario if they do poorly in med school and can only match into family med or pediatrics or psych). Those that do average can go into IM and do a fellowship like Cards or GI and earn $300k easy. Not to mention those that do well who can go into Orthopedics, Ophthalmology, Neurosurgery, Radiology, Plastic Surgery, etc. and get $500k+. The job security is fantastic as well.

Also, unlike law, it doesn't matter where you go to school. Someone from podunk StateU can go into Orthopedics or Radiology if they do well....it's not like you have to go to Hopkins or Harvard. With law you basically have to go to a top 14 school AND do very well to only get paid what crappy med school grads get. And on top of that you have the pressure to perform well in order to advance in your career. This is not the case with med...just go through residency and don't do something extremely stupid/incompetent and then make $$$. Oh yeah and the AMA keeps a tight lock on the # of practicing physicians so there's always demand and little competition....

Sorry but med >>>> law. I only wish I realized this earlier.


You're vastly overestimating the prospects of the average medschool grad.

(1) Starting salary for many primary care physicians is closer to $95k-110k on the East Coast (it's especially bad for ped's). And they work very hard - a PCP is seeing 30+ patients / day, 5 days a week (or more).

(2) ROAD to riches specialties are very hard to place into. It's harder to place into top specialties if you don't come from a top med school. I know people who were AOA in med school who, although they placed into a good residency, had issues because they weren't at a top med school.

(3) Some of the specialties that you list as being especially good are quite brutal. Any surgical specialty requires a miserable 5-7 years of residency (plus fellowship). I can assure you that even Kozinski clerks don't have it as bad as the average surgery resident. Plus, for many surgical specialties, there are significant downsides. For example, neurosurgery is known for have very high malpractice insurance rates and bad on-call hours. Cardiac surgery is supposed to be hard to find a job in. General surgery involves brutal call hours + relatively low pay (you're making in the $200's while the anesthesiologist is making 300+).

(4) Getting a job in a specialty often isn't the easiest thing in the world. Sure, you might be a Cardiologist, but you might have limited options - underpaid at an academic medical center or well-paid in the middle of nowhere.

(5) Most physicians I know plan on paying their student loans until they retire. Their debt load tends to be heavier than law students, and they aren't really able to service the debt for a long time after graduation.

I know very few physicians who would recommend their profession to anyone who isn't 100% committed to being a physician. People are physicians because there is nothing else they'd rather be and they sacrifice decades of their life to achieve that goal. This entire medicine versus law argument is just silly because it dramatically overvalues the raw salary while dramatically undervaluing the costs.




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