Devastated- need advice.

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MrAnon
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Re: Devastated- need advice.

Postby MrAnon » Sat Jan 21, 2012 10:54 pm

arvcondor wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
clh2005 wrote:
Always Credited wrote:Everyone who asks "should I continue" needs to preface that question with telling us exactly why you attended law school in the first place

Sure- like I said, I really do enjoy law school classes and the study of law. And I've always wanted to go to law school, I'm just not very good at taking exams apparently. But the study of law has always interested me much more than other career paths.

That's not what he asked. He asked why you went to law school, and I hope the answer to that wasn't "Because I love learning teh lawls!"

This is a needlessly dickish response. Stop being an asshole to someone who's looking for help.


The response is very relevant actually. Someone who goes to law school for the love of learning is quite misguided unless their objective is to go on to academia perhaps. Law school is professional school. The objective is getting a job in the profession. The schools merely act as a filtering mechanism for employers. Nothing you learn there really sticks. That's why there are bar prep courses. Romanticizing the work during law school is what the schools hope every applicant does. It makes for a nice story but its quite removed from what is actually happening. If you are just thinking about the learning part but have not considering the job part you aren't spending your tuition wisely.

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hung jury
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Re: Devastated- need advice.

Postby hung jury » Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:01 pm

OP, keep with it. If you like the study of law, you're at a decent school, and you won't have debt problems, you'll have a chance to practice if you keep at it. Take the advice of the poster above who suggested getting as much practical experience as you can while in law school. And don't fret the TLSers berating you for not having a concrete plan completely laid out--I know plenty of incredibly successful people who stumbled into what they were doing.

Good luck.

p.s. The idea that enjoying the study of law is irrelevant as to whether one should be a lawyer is ridiculous.

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Yvonnella
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Re: Devastated- need advice.

Postby Yvonnella » Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:16 am

Grizz wrote:
Yvonnella wrote:It's an observation on the obvious, but quitting is what quitters do. Don't quit. I work with a lot of in-house counsel, and NONE of them have stressed that anything less than a 4.0 will prevent you from getting a job, even though you may not get the Biglaw job of your dreams. In fact, some of them, excellent and well-paid attorneys, I should add, have candidly admitted that their grades in law school were not all that hot. Personally, I would rather graduate from a great school with average grades than graduate from an average school with great grades. Your grades in LS become decreasingly important the more experience you gain and the further from law school you get. If you like studying law, stay with it.

45,000 legal grads, 25,000 ish legal jobs, not all of which are full time, permanent, or desirable in any way. Do the math.


The math is exactly the problem I have with your claim. What does the 25,000 figure represent? I suspect it is a major under-representation of all the possibilities that exist for a legal career. The lack of creativity exhibited by otherwise intelligent law students never ceases to amaze me when it comes to how they define "legal jobs." Law is an extremely broad field with a vast array of corporate and business applications besides just biglaw, private practice, and government. I know a very successful real property attorney who made a fortune out of law school buying and selling real estate. She didn't work for a law firm until later. But becoming an attorney was what made her such a successful investor. Also, companies often have their own legal defense departments, with litigation attorneys, loan underwriters, recoupment specialists, lobbyists, and claims attorneys. Corporate legal departments may not look like biglaw, but they're often very good jobs within a diverse legal framework, and unlike biglaw, the attorneys get to go home at night and spend weekends with their kids. If the only concept of an attorney that you can envision is one who works for the typical law firm, then you're right: there aren't enough jobs to employ all the grads. But attorneys can practice in many areas besides just the law firm prototype, and a creative person should be able to find ways to put her legal credential to use, whether she's wanted by law firms or not. I believe too many law grads unnecessarily narrow their opportunities by believing that the only way to have a career as a lawyer is to litigate cases. Sometimes you have to expand your horizons.

MrAnon
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Re: Devastated- need advice.

Postby MrAnon » Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:27 am

Yvonnella wrote:
Grizz wrote:
Yvonnella wrote:It's an observation on the obvious, but quitting is what quitters do. Don't quit. I work with a lot of in-house counsel, and NONE of them have stressed that anything less than a 4.0 will prevent you from getting a job, even though you may not get the Biglaw job of your dreams. In fact, some of them, excellent and well-paid attorneys, I should add, have candidly admitted that their grades in law school were not all that hot. Personally, I would rather graduate from a great school with average grades than graduate from an average school with great grades. Your grades in LS become decreasingly important the more experience you gain and the further from law school you get. If you like studying law, stay with it.

45,000 legal grads, 25,000 ish legal jobs, not all of which are full time, permanent, or desirable in any way. Do the math.


The math is exactly the problem I have with your claim. What does the 25,000 figure represent? I suspect it is a major under-representation of all the possibilities that exist for a legal career. The lack of creativity exhibited by otherwise intelligent law students never ceases to amaze me when it comes to how they define "legal jobs." Law is an extremely broad field with a vast array of corporate and business applications besides just biglaw, private practice, and government. I know a very successful real property attorney who made a fortune out of law school buying and selling real estate. She didn't work for a law firm until later. But becoming an attorney was what made her such a successful investor. Also, companies often have their own legal defense departments, with litigation attorneys, loan underwriters, recoupment specialists, lobbyists, and claims attorneys. Corporate legal departments may not look like biglaw, but they're often very good jobs within a diverse legal framework, and unlike biglaw, the attorneys get to go home at night and spend weekends with their kids. If the only concept of an attorney that you can envision is one who works for the typical law firm, then you're right: there aren't enough jobs to employ all the grads. But attorneys can practice in many areas besides just the law firm prototype, and a creative person should be able to find ways to put her legal credential to use, whether she's wanted by law firms or not. I believe too many law grads unnecessarily narrow their opportunities by believing that the only way to have a career as a lawyer is to litigate cases. Sometimes you have to expand your horizons.


This reads like a laundry list of experiences unavailable to recent law grads. And where does earning a J.D. have anything to do with successful real estate investing? Why not earn a culinary degree and become a successful real estate investor? And there's nothing like making a fortune then going back to work for someone in a law firm I suppose. If you can post some openings in corporate legal departments for newly minted grads we'd all be grateful.

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Grizz
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Re: Devastated- need advice.

Postby Grizz » Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:29 am

Yvonnella wrote:
Grizz wrote:45,000 legal grads, 25,000 ish legal jobs, not all of which are full time, permanent, or desirable in any way. Do the math.


The math is exactly the problem I have with your claim. What does the 25,000 figure represent? I suspect it is a major under-representation of all the possibilities that exist for a legal career. The lack of creativity exhibited by otherwise intelligent law students never ceases to amaze me when it comes to how they define "legal jobs." Law is an extremely broad field with a vast array of corporate and business applications besides just biglaw, private practice, and government. I know a very successful real property attorney who made a fortune out of law school buying and selling real estate. She didn't work for a law firm until later. But becoming an attorney was what made her such a successful investor. Also, companies often have their own legal defense departments, with litigation attorneys, loan underwriters, recoupment specialists, lobbyists, and claims attorneys. Corporate legal departments may not look like biglaw, but they're often very good jobs within a diverse legal framework, and unlike biglaw, the attorneys get to go home at night and spend weekends with their kids. If the only concept of an attorney that you can envision is one who works for the typical law firm, then you're right: there aren't enough jobs to employ all the grads. But attorneys can practice in many areas besides just the law firm prototype, and a creative person should be able to find ways to put her legal credential to use, whether she's wanted by law firms or not. I believe too many law grads unnecessarily narrow their opportunities by believing that the only way to have a career as a lawyer is to litigate cases. Sometimes you have to expand your horizons.

Corporate in-house hiring for new grads is almost nonexistent. Corporations usually look for experienced lawyers from large and medium sized firms to hire, as it strengthens the relationship between the firm and the company. And my number covers that anyway.

Law school doesn't teach you how to invest in real estate either. Get your realator's license, don't go to law school.

The simple fact is that law school doesn't make you more attractive to non-legal employers, with rare exceptions (some people I know worked in lobbying before, then upgraded with a JD. Just getting the JD without the previous lobbying experience wouldn't help). In fact, it makes you a flight risk, or someone for home non-legal was their second choice career. And let's be real, for most people who go to law school, it is.

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Yvonnella
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Re: Devastated- need advice.

Postby Yvonnella » Sun Jan 22, 2012 2:35 am

MrAnon wrote:
Yvonnella wrote:
Grizz wrote:
Yvonnella wrote:It's an observation on the obvious, but quitting is what quitters do. Don't quit. I work with a lot of in-house counsel, and NONE of them have stressed that anything less than a 4.0 will prevent you from getting a job, even though you may not get the Biglaw job of your dreams. In fact, some of them, excellent and well-paid attorneys, I should add, have candidly admitted that their grades in law school were not all that hot. Personally, I would rather graduate from a great school with average grades than graduate from an average school with great grades. Your grades in LS become decreasingly important the more experience you gain and the further from law school you get. If you like studying law, stay with it.

45,000 legal grads, 25,000 ish legal jobs, not all of which are full time, permanent, or desirable in any way. Do the math.


The math is exactly the problem I have with your claim. What does the 25,000 figure represent? I suspect it is a major under-representation of all the possibilities that exist for a legal career. The lack of creativity exhibited by otherwise intelligent law students never ceases to amaze me when it comes to how they define "legal jobs." Law is an extremely broad field with a vast array of corporate and business applications besides just biglaw, private practice, and government. I know a very successful real property attorney who made a fortune out of law school buying and selling real estate. She didn't work for a law firm until later. But becoming an attorney was what made her such a successful investor. Also, companies often have their own legal defense departments, with litigation attorneys, loan underwriters, recoupment specialists, lobbyists, and claims attorneys. Corporate legal departments may not look like biglaw, but they're often very good jobs within a diverse legal framework, and unlike biglaw, the attorneys get to go home at night and spend weekends with their kids. If the only concept of an attorney that you can envision is one who works for the typical law firm, then you're right: there aren't enough jobs to employ all the grads. But attorneys can practice in many areas besides just the law firm prototype, and a creative person should be able to find ways to put her legal credential to use, whether she's wanted by law firms or not. I believe too many law grads unnecessarily narrow their opportunities by believing that the only way to have a career as a lawyer is to litigate cases. Sometimes you have to expand your horizons.


This reads like a laundry list of experiences unavailable to recent law grads. And where does earning a J.D. have anything to do with successful real estate investing? Why not earn a culinary degree and become a successful real estate investor? And there's nothing like making a fortune then going back to work for someone in a law firm I suppose. If you can post some openings in corporate legal departments for newly minted grads we'd all be grateful.


Your inability to think creatively is exactly what I'm talking about. All you can think is, "Post a job opening so I can apply for it." I wouldn't hire you if I had a job opening. You can't get out of your box. You went to law school, for God's sake. Aren't you smarter than the average Joe? Does the world have to sit its opportunities in your lap before you can see them?
Last edited by Yvonnella on Sun Jan 22, 2012 3:03 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Yvonnella
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Re: Devastated- need advice.

Postby Yvonnella » Sun Jan 22, 2012 3:02 am

Grizz wrote:
Yvonnella wrote:
Grizz wrote:45,000 legal grads, 25,000 ish legal jobs, not all of which are full time, permanent, or desirable in any way. Do the math.


The math is exactly the problem I have with your claim. What does the 25,000 figure represent? I suspect it is a major under-representation of all the possibilities that exist for a legal career. The lack of creativity exhibited by otherwise intelligent law students never ceases to amaze me when it comes to how they define "legal jobs." Law is an extremely broad field with a vast array of corporate and business applications besides just biglaw, private practice, and government. I know a very successful real property attorney who made a fortune out of law school buying and selling real estate. She didn't work for a law firm until later. But becoming an attorney was what made her such a successful investor. Also, companies often have their own legal defense departments, with litigation attorneys, loan underwriters, recoupment specialists, lobbyists, and claims attorneys. Corporate legal departments may not look like biglaw, but they're often very good jobs within a diverse legal framework, and unlike biglaw, the attorneys get to go home at night and spend weekends with their kids. If the only concept of an attorney that you can envision is one who works for the typical law firm, then you're right: there aren't enough jobs to employ all the grads. But attorneys can practice in many areas besides just the law firm prototype, and a creative person should be able to find ways to put her legal credential to use, whether she's wanted by law firms or not. I believe too many law grads unnecessarily narrow their opportunities by believing that the only way to have a career as a lawyer is to litigate cases. Sometimes you have to expand your horizons.

Corporate in-house hiring for new grads is almost nonexistent. Corporations usually look for experienced lawyers from large and medium sized firms to hire, as it strengthens the relationship between the firm and the company. And my number covers that anyway.

Law school doesn't teach you how to invest in real estate either. Get your realator's license, don't go to law school.

The simple fact is that law school doesn't make you more attractive to non-legal employers, with rare exceptions (some people I know worked in lobbying before, then upgraded with a JD. Just getting the JD without the previous lobbying experience wouldn't help). In fact, it makes you a flight risk, or someone for home non-legal was their second choice career. And let's be real, for most people who go to law school, it is.


There is some truth in what you say. In-house counsel are often people who have turned to law school after gaining several years of experience in a specialized field. And if a corporation is looking for a litigation attorney, it may - but not always - look for an experienced litigation lawyer. But the trouble with your position is that you appear to have convinced yourself that there is almost nothing a grad can do with a J.D. if she isn't hired by a law firm as a lawyer. I dispute that idea. Networking and thinking outside the box is the key. There are many career paths out there if you're willing to spend the time working toward a goal. Not to dwell on real estate, but thousands of properties are sold at tax sales for a song every year across the country. One big problem with buying such properties is that they're very difficult to resell because tax deeds are susceptible to attack. (And maybe you need to partner with a contractor.) But a smart attorney who does her research can buy those properties and quiet the title herself. A realtor can't. At that point, yes, fortunes can be made. I've seen it done. The possibilities can be endless — if you think creatively. But if you can't step outside the box, then going to law school is just a waste. I guess I expect more from people who have the gumption to become attorneys.

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Errzii
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Re: Devastated- need advice.

Postby Errzii » Sun Jan 22, 2012 3:06 am

lol @ attributing unemployment to lack of creativity

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Grizz
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Re: Devastated- need advice.

Postby Grizz » Sun Jan 22, 2012 3:09 am

Yvonnella wrote:But the trouble with your position is that you appear to have convinced yourself that there is almost nothing a grad can do with a J.D. if she isn't hired by a law firm as a lawyer. I dispute that idea. Networking and thinking outside the box is the key. There are many career paths out there if you're willing to spend the time working toward a goal. Not to dwell on real estate, but thousands of properties are sold at tax sales for a song every year across the country. One big problem with buying such properties is that they're very difficult to resell because tax deeds are susceptible to attack. (And maybe you need to partner with a contractor.) But a smart attorney who does her research can buy those properties and quiet the title herself. A realtor can't. At that point, yes, fortunes can be made. I've seen it done. The possibilities can be endless — if you think creatively. But if you can't step outside the box, then going to law school is just a waste. I guess I expect more from people who have the gumption to become attorneys.

Too bad law school doesn't teach you how to do that. Yup, it doesn't teach you how to quiet title, which should be pretty simple. No joke. Law school doesn't do a good job of preparing you to be a lawyers, much less do anything else.

Also, lol @ the gumption to become attorneys. All you need to do is get an LSAT score and sign up for the free govt. money. It's not that hard. Law school is a joke of an education.

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Yvonnella
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Re: Devastated- need advice.

Postby Yvonnella » Sun Jan 22, 2012 3:26 am

Errzii wrote:lol @ attributing unemployment to lack of creativity


Unemployment I attribute to laziness. As far as I'm concerned, losers are the only adults who are unemployed. I would work the front desk at a hotel before I sat around crying about how there aren't any law jobs.

An inability to find some way to apply a law degree after graduation is what I attribute to lack of creativity. God, I can't believe the pathetic lack of drive and initiative on this forum. Volunteer to do pro bono work for charities, elders, and indigents until you've got some experience to put on your resume! Worry about getting paid when you've earned the right to get paid. If no law firm wants to pay you, then you haven't earned it yet. Try being a lawyer first instead of being an employee. Set some goals and stop whining!

No wait. Better idea. Get some milk and cookies and go sit in your bedroom at your mother's house, shut the door and have a pity party and lol @ attributing unemployment to lack of creativity.

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Yvonnella
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Re: Devastated- need advice.

Postby Yvonnella » Sun Jan 22, 2012 3:29 am

Grizz wrote:
Yvonnella wrote:But the trouble with your position is that you appear to have convinced yourself that there is almost nothing a grad can do with a J.D. if she isn't hired by a law firm as a lawyer. I dispute that idea. Networking and thinking outside the box is the key. There are many career paths out there if you're willing to spend the time working toward a goal. Not to dwell on real estate, but thousands of properties are sold at tax sales for a song every year across the country. One big problem with buying such properties is that they're very difficult to resell because tax deeds are susceptible to attack. (And maybe you need to partner with a contractor.) But a smart attorney who does her research can buy those properties and quiet the title herself. A realtor can't. At that point, yes, fortunes can be made. I've seen it done. The possibilities can be endless — if you think creatively. But if you can't step outside the box, then going to law school is just a waste. I guess I expect more from people who have the gumption to become attorneys.

Too bad law school doesn't teach you how to do that. Yup, it doesn't teach you how to quiet title, which should be pretty simple. No joke. Law school doesn't do a good job of preparing you to be a lawyers, much less do anything else.

Also, lol @ the gumption to become attorneys. All you need to do is get an LSAT score and sign up for the free govt. money. It's not that hard. Law school is a joke of an education.


If you can't teach yourself how to quiet a simple title, how will you ever make it in Biglaw?

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Dex
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Re: Devastated- need advice.

Postby Dex » Sun Jan 22, 2012 3:54 am

Yvonnella wrote:
Errzii wrote:lol @ attributing unemployment to lack of creativity


Unemployment I attribute to laziness. As far as I'm concerned, losers are the only adults who are unemployed. I would work the front desk at a hotel before I sat around crying about how there aren't any law jobs.

An inability to find some way to apply a law degree after graduation is what I attribute to lack of creativity. God, I can't believe the pathetic lack of drive and initiative on this forum. Volunteer to do pro bono work for charities, elders, and indigents until you've got some experience to put on your resume! Worry about getting paid when you've earned the right to get paid. If no law firm wants to pay you, then you haven't earned it yet. Try being a lawyer first instead of being an employee. Set some goals and stop whining!

No wait. Better idea. Get some milk and cookies and go sit in your bedroom at your mother's house, shut the door and have a pity party and lol @ attributing unemployment to lack of creativity.


Yeah I heard volunteering and doing pro bono puts food on the table and pays off $150k debt all on its own. I mean, if I saw that a student who came from a TTT with bottom 25% grades worked at the "I'm Creative So I Work For Free Shelter" , I'd probably sweep them out of unemployment and throw paychecks their way.

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MrKappus
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Re: Devastated- need advice.

Postby MrKappus » Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:01 am

@Yvonnella: congrats on the medication switch. It's clearly doing wonders for your outlook, even if that outlook's no longer grounded in reality.

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Yvonnella
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Re: Devastated- need advice.

Postby Yvonnella » Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:05 am

MrKappus wrote:@Yvonnella: congrats on the medication switch. It's clearly doing wonders for your outlook, even if that outlook's no longer grounded in reality.


LOL. I'm making enough money right now that I can afford all the meds I want. Well: reds, that is. Cabernets, merlots, syrahs. Life's good. Hope it looks up for the rest of you sometime.

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calilaw
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Re: Devastated- need advice.

Postby calilaw » Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:28 am

Dex wrote:
Yvonnella wrote:
Errzii wrote:lol @ attributing unemployment to lack of creativity


Unemployment I attribute to laziness. As far as I'm concerned, losers are the only adults who are unemployed. I would work the front desk at a hotel before I sat around crying about how there aren't any law jobs.

An inability to find some way to apply a law degree after graduation is what I attribute to lack of creativity. God, I can't believe the pathetic lack of drive and initiative on this forum. Volunteer to do pro bono work for charities, elders, and indigents until you've got some experience to put on your resume! Worry about getting paid when you've earned the right to get paid. If no law firm wants to pay you, then you haven't earned it yet. Try being a lawyer first instead of being an employee. Set some goals and stop whining!

No wait. Better idea. Get some milk and cookies and go sit in your bedroom at your mother's house, shut the door and have a pity party and lol @ attributing unemployment to lack of creativity.


Yeah I heard volunteering and doing pro bono puts food on the table and pays off $150k debt all on its own. I mean, if I saw that a student who came from a TTT with bottom 25% grades worked at the "I'm Creative So I Work For Free Shelter" , I'd probably sweep them out of unemployment and throw paychecks their way.


Big difference between TTT/25%/150k debt and T40/25%/no debt (perhaps opportunity costs) like OP.

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Grizz
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Re: Devastated- need advice.

Postby Grizz » Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:06 am

Yvonnella wrote:If you can't teach yourself how to quiet a simple title, how will you ever make it in Biglaw?

That's the point. They teach you. That's how the model works. It assumes that fresh grads need training, because we're useless.

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Grizz
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Re: Devastated- need advice.

Postby Grizz » Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:15 am

Yvonnella wrote:
Errzii wrote:lol @ attributing unemployment to lack of creativity


Unemployment I attribute to laziness. As far as I'm concerned, losers are the only adults who are unemployed. I would work the front desk at a hotel before I sat around crying about how there aren't any law jobs.

An inability to find some way to apply a law degree after graduation is what I attribute to lack of creativity. God, I can't believe the pathetic lack of drive and initiative on this forum. Volunteer to do pro bono work for charities, elders, and indigents until you've got some experience to put on your resume! Worry about getting paid when you've earned the right to get paid. If no law firm wants to pay you, then you haven't earned it yet. Try being a lawyer first instead of being an employee. Set some goals and stop whining!


God help you if you took out even $60k debt (CoL/books/fees expenses even after getting a full ride scholarship at a place like Loyola) to volunteer after school. Jesus. Loan payments start immediately, HTH. Tons of grads just get jobs they could have got with their undergrad degree. And tons of grads are volunteering in the hope of finding permanent employment. But that's the whole point. If you couldn't get hired (which is a substantial probability from some of these third tier toilets), you shouldn't have even gone in the first place.

flcath
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Re: Devastated- need advice.

Postby flcath » Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:19 am

The cynicism on here has really gotten out of control. If this kid isn't accumulating debt, then he should stay in LS, start doing volunteering at the local DA/PD now, and start interning as soon as he's eligible (usually after he's taken PR).

Obviously if there's some unusually great opportunity cost--like a $50K job offer he has lined up waiting for him--then he should jump at that. But if he's the usual poli sci shithead, then LS is a pretty great deal.

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Grizz
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Re: Devastated- need advice.

Postby Grizz » Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:31 am

flcath wrote:The cynicism on here has really gotten out of control. If this kid isn't accumulating debt, then he should stay in LS, start doing volunteering at the local DA/PD now, and start interning as soon as he's eligible (usually after he's taken PR).

Obviously if there's some unusually great opportunity cost--like a $50K job offer he has lined up waiting for him--then he should jump at that. But if he's the usual poli sci shithead, then LS is a pretty great deal.

Ooh I missed the part where he had no debt. With no debt I'd stay. Worse comes to worst, you just get whatever job you coulda got with your UG degree at the end.

nelaw2010
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Re: Devastated- need advice.

Postby nelaw2010 » Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:53 am

If you want to stay in LS, I would suggest looking at Arrow's or JayCutler'sCombover posts.

They are excellent. I have classmates who also spent a ton of time studying. But when I studied with them during finals, they didn't know BLL, and were confused regarding policy implications.

I would suggest:

1. CrunchTime
2. E&E
3. LEEWS
4. GTM
5. Law in a Flash (flashcards)

However, LEEWS is not something you read/listen and move on. You must study the method, do the exercises. You have to be in the habit of applying the technique not only in exam writing, but in outlining and case briefing. His whole system seems to be predicated on spending less time briefing, and more time outlining and practicing how to write an exam.

Check out the posts I mentioned above. Learn the BLL, and how to apply it. I'm confident you'll see a huge improvement.

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PDaddy
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Re: Devastated- need advice.

Postby PDaddy » Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:55 am

Get with your profs and try your best to recover next semester. You still have hope for biglaw, if you improve your grades. Other than that, there are other paths available, as you already know - judging by your post.

More and more graduates are going to have to embrace the prospect that lawyers must also be entreprenuers. Consider hanging up a shingle after graduation or finding a non-law profession in which your legal skills are useful.

If money is little or no factor, go forth and enjoy your legal education. Though it's not an ideal situation in which to be, people can graduate below median and still do well in their careers.

Sometimes the people who are in it for the love of it wind up on top no matter what. I have no doubt that you can make a good career of it.

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YourCaptain
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Re: Devastated- need advice.

Postby YourCaptain » Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:02 am

Yvonnella wrote:
Grizz wrote:
Yvonnella wrote:It's an observation on the obvious, but quitting is what quitters do. Don't quit. I work with a lot of in-house counsel, and NONE of them have stressed that anything less than a 4.0 will prevent you from getting a job, even though you may not get the Biglaw job of your dreams. In fact, some of them, excellent and well-paid attorneys, I should add, have candidly admitted that their grades in law school were not all that hot. Personally, I would rather graduate from a great school with average grades than graduate from an average school with great grades. Your grades in LS become decreasingly important the more experience you gain and the further from law school you get. If you like studying law, stay with it.

45,000 legal grads, 25,000 ish legal jobs, not all of which are full time, permanent, or desirable in any way. Do the math.


The math is exactly the problem I have with your claim. What does the 25,000 figure represent? I suspect ~snip~


you suspect wrong

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sunynp
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Re: Devastated- need advice.

Postby sunynp » Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:24 am

People have complained that everyone knows about the terrible state of the legal market. Yet where does this yvonella come from? We need to keep pointing people in the right direction to counteract the incredible ignorance that still exists.

. Paul campos did a good post about the concept of having to pay 6 figures for a degree and then being told that you need to work for free for a couple of years. Obviously, the volunteer til you get a job can only work for people who have significant financial support. And the idea you can service loans working as a hotel receptionist is laughable- you probably can't even get hired as a receptionist once you have a jd. A guy who graduated from nyu couldnt even get a job at target in alabama- that story is on above the law.

And to blame unemployed people for their lack of creativity or drive is just wrong. Read some posts in the employment forum. Read the valkyrie's struggle. Do more research instead of coming back with inane arguments.

See, not everyone--like that starry-eyed 0L above-- understands what is really happening.

OP- sorry to derail your thread. Let us know how next semester turns out. You have some solid advice to follow here. As long as you aren't accumulating debt, all you are losing is the time to build a different career and the money you could be making there, so stay with law and see how next semester goes.

MrAnon
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Re: Devastated- need advice.

Postby MrAnon » Sun Jan 22, 2012 9:57 am

Yet where does this yvonella come from?


Admissions office employee.

MrAnon
Posts: 1615
Joined: Wed Aug 25, 2010 9:08 pm

Re: Devastated- need advice.

Postby MrAnon » Sun Jan 22, 2012 10:01 am

Yvonnella wrote:
Grizz wrote:
Yvonnella wrote:But the trouble with your position is that you appear to have convinced yourself that there is almost nothing a grad can do with a J.D. if she isn't hired by a law firm as a lawyer. I dispute that idea. Networking and thinking outside the box is the key. There are many career paths out there if you're willing to spend the time working toward a goal. Not to dwell on real estate, but thousands of properties are sold at tax sales for a song every year across the country. One big problem with buying such properties is that they're very difficult to resell because tax deeds are susceptible to attack. (And maybe you need to partner with a contractor.) But a smart attorney who does her research can buy those properties and quiet the title herself. A realtor can't. At that point, yes, fortunes can be made. I've seen it done. The possibilities can be endless — if you think creatively. But if you can't step outside the box, then going to law school is just a waste. I guess I expect more from people who have the gumption to become attorneys.

Too bad law school doesn't teach you how to do that. Yup, it doesn't teach you how to quiet title, which should be pretty simple. No joke. Law school doesn't do a good job of preparing you to be a lawyers, much less do anything else.

Also, lol @ the gumption to become attorneys. All you need to do is get an LSAT score and sign up for the free govt. money. It's not that hard. Law school is a joke of an education.


If you can't teach yourself how to quiet a simple title, how will you ever make it in Biglaw?


Quiet a simple title? Sorry but you are out of touch.




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