How come "top" schools do so bad at Moot Court competitions?

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Gamecubesupreme
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How come "top" schools do so bad at Moot Court competitions?

Postby Gamecubesupreme » Sat Jan 14, 2012 2:37 pm

I could understand for small national level moot courts, such as the Health Law one, big name schools don't bother participating.

However, I thought they would at least try in the National Moot Court competition administered by the NY Bar Association, as it is suppose to be the oldest and most prestigious one.

And yet, winners of the competition are often from schools that most people on TLS wouldn't even consider as their safety.

Why is this the case? Is it because people at Harvard and Yale don't take moot court seriously? Or could it be the students from the lower ranked schools are better at moot court activities because they are facing unemployment?

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Mce252
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Re: How come "top" schools do so bad at Moot Court competitions?

Postby Mce252 » Sat Jan 14, 2012 2:44 pm

Lower ranked schools spend more time preparing for the competitions. When you have a system that ranks schools by the same things every year -- which doesn't include moot court championships -- it's the only way for lower ranked schools to gain recognition. T14 schools hire faculty members that publish, not those that train advocates.

BeachedBrit
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Re: How come "top" schools do so bad at Moot Court competitions?

Postby BeachedBrit » Sat Jan 14, 2012 3:44 pm

Speculation here but i'd also guess that, as the students aren't going to get the same kind of employment opportunities based upon their school, competitions of that sort are an opportunity for such a student to gain recognition that could help them get employment that they normally wouldn't have a shot at. Whereas, a student at the top school would be far more rational in choosing to focus exclusively on their classes/grades as they don't necessarily need anything else.

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AVBucks4239
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Re: How come "top" schools do so bad at Moot Court competitions?

Postby AVBucks4239 » Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:21 pm

I go to a T3 that consistently does extremely well at moot court competitions. You guys are correct that our moot court team puts a ton of hours into preparing for the competition. The students take it very seriously because once you get on the top team in the school, you instantly plant some awesome networking seeds. The top two teams in our school were advised by partners at 3 of the BigLaw firms in town. They train you, keep an eye on you, and really get your name around.

In short, it's a great networking opportunity to get name recognition.

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thesealocust
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Re: How come "top" schools do so bad at Moot Court competitions?

Postby thesealocust » Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:25 pm

I go to a T14, and we spend most of our time smoking cigars that we've lit with $20 bills or showering hookers in champagne, so there isn't much time left for moot court.

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IAFG
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Re: How come "top" schools do so bad at Moot Court competitions?

Postby IAFG » Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:27 pm

T14 students spend 1L worrying about getting a job, then either check out or start clerkship gunning. Moot court doesn't fit in with either track.

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thesealocust
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Re: How come "top" schools do so bad at Moot Court competitions?

Postby thesealocust » Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:29 pm

IAFG wrote:T14 students spend 1L worrying about getting a job, then either check out or start clerkship gunning. Moot court doesn't fit in with either track.


Stop being reasonable!

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I.P. Daly
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Re: How come "top" schools do so bad at Moot Court competitions?

Postby I.P. Daly » Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:33 pm

thesealocust wrote:I go to a T14, and we spend most of our time smoking cigars that we've lit with $20 bills or showering hookers in champagne, so there isn't much time left for moot court.


You are lucky. Many schools cut the hooker and champagne budget this year.

Oban
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Re: How come "top" schools do so bad at Moot Court competitions?

Postby Oban » Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:37 pm

Cause, nobody cares about moot court but plaintiffs firms, and T14 kids tend to go into big law or clerkship/gov, etc
Last edited by Oban on Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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leobowski
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Re: How come "top" schools do so bad at Moot Court competitions?

Postby leobowski » Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:42 pm

Has anyone ever actually gotten a job through moot court? Serious question.

lawyerwannabe
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Re: How come "top" schools do so bad at Moot Court competitions?

Postby lawyerwannabe » Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:42 pm

Reiterating the fact T14 schools, in general, do not care about Moot Court very much...

@Duke: 1Ls write an appellate brief that is graded for LARW then have a one day/night mandatory Moot Court Competition that is not graded and only requires a good faith effort.

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IAFG
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Re: How come "top" schools do so bad at Moot Court competitions?

Postby IAFG » Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:46 pm

leobowski wrote:Has anyone ever actually gotten a job through moot court? Serious question.

I know TTT students who thought their moot court successes helped them get employment at places most TLSers never talk or think about (e.g. insurance defense, personal injury).

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Re: How come "top" schools do so bad at Moot Court competitions?

Postby dixiecupdrinking » Sat Jan 14, 2012 4:54 pm

I get the sense that the whole courtroom advocacy element is downplayed at top schools. There are trial advocacy etc. courses at NYU but the conventional wisdom isn't that they're necessary or all that important. It probably reflects the fact that generally only the people doing public interest or government work at a top school will even see a courtroom in the next five years, which is not the case if you graduate from Brooklyn and go work for a five-person firm doing family law or something.

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IAFG
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Re: How come "top" schools do so bad at Moot Court competitions?

Postby IAFG » Sat Jan 14, 2012 5:03 pm

dixiecupdrinking wrote:I get the sense that the whole courtroom advocacy element is downplayed at top schools. There are trial advocacy etc. courses at NYU but the conventional wisdom isn't that they're necessary or all that important. It probably reflects the fact that generally only the people doing public interest or government work at a top school will even see a courtroom in the next five years, which is not the case if you graduate from Brooklyn and go work for a five-person firm doing family law or something.

Bankruptcy lawyers go to court often, even at big firms.

Renzo
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Re: How come "top" schools do so bad at Moot Court competitions?

Postby Renzo » Sun Jan 15, 2012 4:21 pm

dixiecupdrinking wrote:I get the sense that the whole courtroom advocacy element is downplayed at top schools. There are trial advocacy etc. courses at NYU but the conventional wisdom isn't that they're necessary or all that important. It probably reflects the fact that generally only the people doing public interest or government work at a top school will even see a courtroom in the next five years, which is not the case if you graduate from Brooklyn and go work for a five-person firm doing family law or something.


It's downplayed not because it's unimportant, but because roughly 0% of academics know a fucking thing about courtroom advocacy. Anyone who's been a practitioner for any meaningful length of time will find themselves all but blacklisted from tenure-track academic positions.

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Re: How come "top" schools do so bad at Moot Court competitions?

Postby r6_philly » Sun Jan 15, 2012 4:22 pm

lawyerwannabe wrote:Reiterating the fact T14 schools, in general, do not care about Moot Court very much...

@Duke: 1Ls write an appellate brief that is graded for LARW then have a one day/night mandatory Moot Court Competition that is not graded and only requires a good faith effort.


At Penn we also write an appellate brief that we have to argue at the end of our LRW class. But our LRW is not graded. I get the sense that many if not most of us are not going to be trial lawyers.

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MrPapagiorgio
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Re: How come "top" schools do so bad at Moot Court competitions?

Postby MrPapagiorgio » Sun Jan 15, 2012 4:30 pm

Renzo wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:I get the sense that the whole courtroom advocacy element is downplayed at top schools. There are trial advocacy etc. courses at NYU but the conventional wisdom isn't that they're necessary or all that important. It probably reflects the fact that generally only the people doing public interest or government work at a top school will even see a courtroom in the next five years, which is not the case if you graduate from Brooklyn and go work for a five-person firm doing family law or something.


It's downplayed not because it's unimportant, but because roughly 0% of academics know a fucking thing about courtroom advocacy. Anyone who's been a practitioner for any meaningful length of time will find themselves all but blacklisted from tenure-track academic positions.

Credited.

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BruceWayne
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Re: How come "top" schools do so bad at Moot Court competitions?

Postby BruceWayne » Sun Jan 15, 2012 4:33 pm

Renzo wrote:It's downplayed not because it's unimportant, but because roughly 0% of academics know a fucking thing about courtroom advocacy. Anyone who's been a practitioner for any meaningful length of time will find themselves all but blacklisted from tenure-track academic positions.


Just another one of the countless stupid traits of law school.

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vamedic03
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Re: How come "top" schools do so bad at Moot Court competitions?

Postby vamedic03 » Sun Jan 15, 2012 4:37 pm

It could be because at many of the top law schools, the prestigious moot court competition is an internal/intramural competition.

E.g.,

http://www.law.harvard.edu/news/hltoday ... /ames.html
http://mootcourtatuva.org/

Transferthrowaway
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Re: How come "top" schools do so bad at Moot Court competitions?

Postby Transferthrowaway » Sun Jan 15, 2012 4:40 pm

vamedic03 wrote:It could be because at many of the top law schools, the prestigious moot court competition is an internal/intramural competition.

E.g.,

http://www.law.harvard.edu/news/hltoday ... /ames.html
http://mootcourtatuva.org/

I'm on to your subtle UVA trolling.

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NoleinNY
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Re: How come "top" schools do so bad at Moot Court competitions?

Postby NoleinNY » Sun Jan 15, 2012 4:45 pm

leobowski wrote:Has anyone ever actually gotten a job through moot court? Serious question.


Pre-hiring freeze, it wasn't unheard of for members of Loyola's trial ad team to land gigs at the LA DA's office.

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180asBreath
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Re: How come "top" schools do so bad at Moot Court competitions?

Postby 180asBreath » Sun Jan 15, 2012 4:51 pm

thesealocust wrote:I go to a T14, and we spend most of our time smoking cigars that we've lit with $20 bills or showering hookers in champagne, so there isn't much time left for moot court.


Best law school joke ever?

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spleenworship
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Re: How come "top" schools do so bad at Moot Court competitions?

Postby spleenworship » Sun Jan 15, 2012 7:40 pm

MrPapagiorgio wrote:
Renzo wrote:
dixiecupdrinking wrote:I get the sense that the whole courtroom advocacy element is downplayed at top schools. There are trial advocacy etc. courses at NYU but the conventional wisdom isn't that they're necessary or all that important. It probably reflects the fact that generally only the people doing public interest or government work at a top school will even see a courtroom in the next five years, which is not the case if you graduate from Brooklyn and go work for a five-person firm doing family law or something.


It's downplayed not because it's unimportant, but because roughly 0% of academics know a fucking thing about courtroom advocacy. Anyone who's been a practitioner for any meaningful length of time will find themselves all but blacklisted from tenure-track academic positions.

Credited.


Apparently it is uncommon that two of my 1L profs have actually argued in front of SCOTUS. My T2 is one of the few places I have heard of in which a majority (but not all) of the professors have actually practiced and continue to practice. Every Dean for the last 40 years or so has practiced on the side, or went into practice again immediately after their tenure.

I don't say this to inspire envy, but just as something I have noticed that might actually be a bonus (okay, okay... consolation prize) of going to a strong regional school.

Oh, and to add to something from earlier, on last year's moot court team at my school two team members got litigation jobs at boutiques and another got a clerkship from a COA judge who came and helped out. So it definitely is worth it at least at my school from a potential employment angle.

09042014
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Re: How come "top" schools do so bad at Moot Court competitions?

Postby 09042014 » Sun Jan 15, 2012 8:22 pm

I'd say because LSAT scores probably don't correlate well with Moot Court success.

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MrPapagiorgio
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Re: How come "top" schools do so bad at Moot Court competitions?

Postby MrPapagiorgio » Sun Jan 15, 2012 8:29 pm

Desert Fox wrote:I'd say because LSAT scores probably don't correlate well with Moot Court successanything.

FTFY.

(I know, I know it's the strongest predictor blah blah blah. Still pretty shitty correlation though)




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