Would you tell the professor if...

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Yvonnella
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Re: Would you tell the professor if...

Postby Yvonnella » Sun Dec 18, 2011 5:27 am

Nobody likes cheaters, but being a snitch is just as bad. Maybe worse. If you tell on your classmate, you'll regret it. Once it gets around that you're a tattletale, nobody will want to have anything to do with you. Maybe the other person pulled a fast one on your professor. It happens. Maybe you did yourself, OP. Whatever. You should just distance yourself from that person immediately and hope nobody thinks you deserve to snitched on yourself. Keep quiet: the reputation you salvage may be your own.

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Dany
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Re: Would you tell the professor if...

Postby Dany » Sun Dec 18, 2011 5:56 am

Yvonnella wrote:Nobody likes cheaters, but being a snitch is just as bad. Maybe worse. If you tell on your classmate, you'll regret it. Once it gets around that you're a tattletale, nobody will want to have anything to do with you. Maybe the other person pulled a fast one on your professor. It happens. Maybe you did yourself, OP. Whatever. You should just distance yourself from that person immediately and hope nobody thinks you deserve to snitched on yourself. Keep quiet: the reputation you salvage may be your own.

THANKS YVONNE.

luthersloan
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Re: Would you tell the professor if...

Postby luthersloan » Sun Dec 18, 2011 7:00 am

Dany wrote:
Yvonnella wrote:Nobody likes cheaters, but being a snitch is just as bad. Maybe worse. If you tell on your classmate, you'll regret it. Once it gets around that you're a tattletale, nobody will want to have anything to do with you. Maybe the other person pulled a fast one on your professor. It happens. Maybe you did yourself, OP. Whatever. You should just distance yourself from that person immediately and hope nobody thinks you deserve to snitched on yourself. Keep quiet: the reputation you salvage may be your own.

THANKS YVONNE.


That is attitude I have never understood, I don't see how turning someone in for breaking a rule that most people on here seem to admit should be followed is wrong. It is interesting that this thread essentially opened with a Joe Paterno joke, since as near as I can tell his career has been wrecked for failure to "snitch." Now, surely child rape and cheating are totally different levels, but I do not see any reason why one should be reported, and the other should not. I can see a line being drawn where the thing being reported is not wrong, but is illegal (drug possession) but beyond that I just don't get it.

shoeshine
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Re: Would you tell the professor if...

Postby shoeshine » Sun Dec 18, 2011 7:07 am

luthersloan wrote:
Dany wrote:
Yvonnella wrote:Nobody likes cheaters, but being a snitch is just as bad. Maybe worse. If you tell on your classmate, you'll regret it. Once it gets around that you're a tattletale, nobody will want to have anything to do with you. Maybe the other person pulled a fast one on your professor. It happens. Maybe you did yourself, OP. Whatever. You should just distance yourself from that person immediately and hope nobody thinks you deserve to snitched on yourself. Keep quiet: the reputation you salvage may be your own.

THANKS YVONNE.


That is attitude I have never understood, I don't see how turning someone in for breaking a rule that most people on here seem to admit should be followed is wrong. It is interesting that this thread essentially opened with a Joe Paterno joke, since as near as I can tell his career has been wrecked for failure to "snitch." Now, surely child rape and cheating are totally different levels, but I do not see any reason why one should be reported, and the other should not. I can see a line being drawn where the thing being reported is not wrong, but is illegal (drug possession) but beyond that I just don't get it.


These things are not even close to being the same. F U and everyone else who would compare them.

luthersloan
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Re: Would you tell the professor if...

Postby luthersloan » Sun Dec 18, 2011 7:17 am

That is not really responsive, also its rude.

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Mr. Pancakes
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Re: Would you tell the professor if...

Postby Mr. Pancakes » Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:11 am

luthersloan wrote:
Dany wrote:
Yvonnella wrote:Nobody likes cheaters, but being a snitch is just as bad. Maybe worse. If you tell on your classmate, you'll regret it. Once it gets around that you're a tattletale, nobody will want to have anything to do with you. Maybe the other person pulled a fast one on your professor. It happens. Maybe you did yourself, OP. Whatever. You should just distance yourself from that person immediately and hope nobody thinks you deserve to snitched on yourself. Keep quiet: the reputation you salvage may be your own.

THANKS YVONNE.


That is attitude I have never understood, I don't see how turning someone in for breaking a rule that most people on here seem to admit should be followed is wrong. It is interesting that this thread essentially opened with a Joe Paterno joke, since as near as I can tell his career has been wrecked for failure to "snitch." Now, surely child rape and cheating are totally different levels, but I do not see any reason why one should be reported, and the other should not. I can see a line being drawn where the thing being reported is not wrong, but is illegal (drug possession) but beyond that I just don't get it.


worst analogy ever. Is your real name Nancy Grace?

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kwais
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Re: Would you tell the professor if...

Postby kwais » Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:28 am

luthersloan wrote:
Dany wrote:
Yvonnella wrote:Nobody likes cheaters, but being a snitch is just as bad. Maybe worse. If you tell on your classmate, you'll regret it. Once it gets around that you're a tattletale, nobody will want to have anything to do with you. Maybe the other person pulled a fast one on your professor. It happens. Maybe you did yourself, OP. Whatever. You should just distance yourself from that person immediately and hope nobody thinks you deserve to snitched on yourself. Keep quiet: the reputation you salvage may be your own.

THANKS YVONNE.


That is attitude I have never understood, I don't see how turning someone in for breaking a rule that most people on here seem to admit should be followed is wrong. It is interesting that this thread essentially opened with a Joe Paterno joke, since as near as I can tell his career has been wrecked for failure to "snitch." Now, surely child rape and cheating are totally different levels, but I do not see any reason why one should be reported, and the other should not. I can see a line being drawn where the thing being reported is not wrong, but is illegal (drug possession) but beyond that I just don't get it.


you're gross

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kwais
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Re: Would you tell the professor if...

Postby kwais » Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:29 am

Yvonnella wrote:Nobody likes cheaters, but being a snitch is just as bad. Maybe worse. If you tell on your classmate, you'll regret it. Once it gets around that you're a tattletale, nobody will want to have anything to do with you. Maybe the other person pulled a fast one on your professor. It happens. Maybe you did yourself, OP. Whatever. You should just distance yourself from that person immediately and hope nobody thinks you deserve to snitched on yourself. Keep quiet: the reputation you salvage may be your own.


distance yourself? stop being this person's friend? what the fuck are you talking about?

BlueDiamond
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Re: Would you tell the professor if...

Postby BlueDiamond » Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:31 am

I had been following this thread for a little bit.. just read "THANKS YVONNE" and thought that the friend was on TLS responding without the first chick knowing and got quite excited.. such a disappointment

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willwash
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Re: Would you tell the professor if...

Postby willwash » Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:39 am

You can raise your concerns to your prof without name dropping, you know.

johndhi
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Re: Would you tell the professor if...

Postby johndhi » Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:21 am

As a 2L with less competition running through my veins and a somewhat narrow conception of morality, I'd say let it slide. If I were a 1L fighting for top grades in a school at which top grades mattered, I'd probably be more empathetic to OP's position.

AspiringAcademic
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Re: Would you tell the professor if...

Postby AspiringAcademic » Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:32 am

Antilles Haven wrote:Meh, I don't know. If your professor would actually care about the fact that someone did take that extra 45 minutes to write their exam then it is unquestionably cheating, and it wasn't exactly a trivial amount of cheating either apparently.

I'm actually shocked this consensus is so far in favor of "if you do tell the professor you are scum of the earth."

TLS is rather weird on certain issues. As someone who taught at a school that expected and required students to report cheating, to the point of forbidding proctors from monitoring exams, I find this discussion rather silly. Sometimes you have a duty to turn in your friends, even when there is a personal cost to doing so. In fact, there is often a personal cost to turning in anyone for anything, so one really might as well get used to thinking about it if one intends to work in a field with ethical standards and mandatory reporting rules.

In this case, there are some complicating factors. Most notably, it is unclear whether there is a strong expectation that the student should report and what would happen if they did. With my background, I'd resolve the ambiguity in favor of reporting. I would probably go to the verbal route just in case the professor says "this is a bloody mess and I don't want to touch it." YMMV

What the OP could have/should have done is call the friend on it during the exam. "Time was up five minutes ago, you really need to stop (we both signed the honor code)" might have saved considerable fuss.

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thesealocust
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Re: Would you tell the professor if...

Postby thesealocust » Sun Dec 18, 2011 1:21 pm

luthersloan wrote:
Dany wrote:
Yvonnella wrote:Nobody likes cheaters, but being a snitch is just as bad. Maybe worse. If you tell on your classmate, you'll regret it. Once it gets around that you're a tattletale, nobody will want to have anything to do with you. Maybe the other person pulled a fast one on your professor. It happens. Maybe you did yourself, OP. Whatever. You should just distance yourself from that person immediately and hope nobody thinks you deserve to snitched on yourself. Keep quiet: the reputation you salvage may be your own.

THANKS YVONNE.


That is attitude I have never understood, I don't see how turning someone in for breaking a rule that most people on here seem to admit should be followed is wrong. It is interesting that this thread essentially opened with a Joe Paterno joke, since as near as I can tell his career has been wrecked for failure to "snitch." Now, surely child rape and cheating are totally different levels, but I do not see any reason why one should be reported, and the other should not. I can see a line being drawn where the thing being reported is not wrong, but is illegal (drug possession) but beyond that I just don't get it.


I don't want to live on this planet any more.

jarofsoup
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Re: Would you tell the professor if...

Postby jarofsoup » Sun Dec 18, 2011 1:30 pm

AJaKe wrote:So my law school friend and I were taking an exam at her house. It was a three-hour "take home", open notes and all that. We had studied together in the morning and just decided to take it together at her dining room table with a "Chinese wall" type of set up, so we wouldn't be colluding.

Test turn-in time comes around and the system to turn it in goes down. I freak, e-mail mine to the professor's secretary and e-mail student affairs. She has only done 2 of the 4 questions so she continues to type without attempting to turn it in at all. 30 minutes later the Dean sends an e-mail to the class about the problems submitting and says to submit it to the secretary. 45 minutes after that my friend turns in her paper, having managed to complete the last 2 questions.

The end of the day the Professor sends an e-mail saying that all the papers were considered "timely" turned in. I honestly don't know how this can be. The friend has no medical reason, no extra time allowed.

Do you think you would have an ethical obligation to say something, or is it just one of those things you should just let go?

What would you do?


She is your friend so don't. She got lucky with the email mishap and I do not think that this is really anything that would be considered to be an honor code violation.

Except maybe you two taking the test in the same location???

I would avoid this type of conflict with your fellow students. What ever you decide to do just keep in mind you will probably loose a good study buddy and taint your reputation at your school.

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goosey
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Re: Would you tell the professor if...

Postby goosey » Sun Dec 18, 2011 1:41 pm

AJaKe wrote:
Geist13 wrote:I wouldn't say anything. I also probably wouldn't ever interact with that person again. If they asked why, I would say "cause you're a fucking dishonest person; I should have turned you in, but that shit is overdramatic."


I think I agree with this response the most, I mean - they're a friend, but that was just shady.


I agree with the "dont tell" sentiment but for a different reason: probably most of the class did the same thing, and you telling or not makes no difference. they probably assume people took advantage of the extra time. so you were honest...and maybe that puts you at a disadvantage in terms of grade, but I would feel much better about my honestly earned B than dishonestly earned A. idealistic? yeah, sure. but at the end of the day, you need to realize that grades are important--they will help you get a job etc etc etc...but your character and who you are is way more important. in the grand scheme of things, one class will not hold you back from a job....but being a dishonest troll will hold you back in life in general..nobody likes grimey people. and to do well, you need to be smart AND likable. maybe for your friend [i'd stop being friends right abt now] one grade is worth compromising their morality, but...its a slippery slope. people that compromise themselves this early in their career to get ahead will only continue to do so.

so..point being: good for you, for being honest. it will take you further than any dishonestly earned A ever would. and dont tell...not because its "wrong" to snitch [i actually think its wrong NOT to tell] but only because I think there is an assumption that everyone did this and that your professor would not consider it cheating. so then you rat out a friend AND it is of no consequence even if you didnt. not telling is the lesser of the two evils.

dontTazemeBrah
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Re: Would you tell the professor if...

Postby dontTazemeBrah » Sun Dec 18, 2011 1:49 pm

OP, you are exactly the type of person i hope to avoid throughout my life. don't act like you want to turn your "friend" in because of morality. you just want a leg up on the curve. and seriously, you come to TLS to find justification for your cowardly act? i doubt your "chinese wall" did anything and you colluded. you are going to rat out your friend anyway so get lost kid.

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ben4847
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Re: Would you tell the professor if...

Postby ben4847 » Sun Dec 18, 2011 1:51 pm

I'd tell.

I'm a bit surprised by the moral code represented in this thread.
Cheating is inherently bad, not at all funny, and always wrong.
Snitching is not inherently wrong, and is only wrong when done for a wrongful purpose. I don't think that protecting your grades is a wrongful purpose.

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quakeroats
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Re: Would you tell the professor if...

Postby quakeroats » Sun Dec 18, 2011 1:54 pm

Here's an interesting article written from a professor's standpoint: http://www.swlaw.edu/pdfs/jle/jle604Naim.pdf

I haven't read through the whole thread, but two relevant things you may want to consider are what happens if your friend sues you (this is discussed in the article), and what happens if your friend makes a counter accusation against you?

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thesealocust
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Re: Would you tell the professor if...

Postby thesealocust » Sun Dec 18, 2011 2:19 pm

quakeroats wrote:Here's an interesting article written from a professor's standpoint


Oh you.

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Cupidity
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Re: Would you tell the professor if...

Postby Cupidity » Sun Dec 18, 2011 2:40 pm

quakeroats wrote:if your friend sues you


I simply could not think of a meme sufficient to embody my scorn. Suggestions appreciated.

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ben4847
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Re: Would you tell the professor if...

Postby ben4847 » Sun Dec 18, 2011 2:44 pm

quakeroats wrote:what happens if your friend sues you (this is discussed in the article), and what happens if your friend makes a counter accusation against you?


This counsels toward the blackmail and extortion approach.
It shouldn't really make any difference whether the penalty for cheating is suffered through extortion or school sanctions. The schools can simply raise the sanction they apply, such that the amount of extortion will be sufficient to deter.

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Holly Golightly
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Re: Would you tell the professor if...

Postby Holly Golightly » Sun Dec 18, 2011 2:47 pm

thesealocust wrote:
sundance95 wrote:
whuts4lunch wrote:I agree with sealocust that "Don't be a law student" is phenomenal advice in almost every situation.

the being a law student sickness is evident when u ask a friend how an exam went, they say terrible, and while u outwardly sympathize or empathize, on the inside part of u is happy because it shows that others may have found the test hard which likely will result in a more forgiving curve

You ask others how an exam went?

Don't be a law student.


Holly I think you've started something big here.

:mrgreen:

Glad I could help

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Yvonnella
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Re: Would you tell the professor if...

Postby Yvonnella » Sun Dec 18, 2011 4:18 pm

ben4847 wrote:I'd tell.

I'm a bit surprised by the moral code represented in this thread.
Cheating is inherently bad, not at all funny, and always wrong.
Snitching is not inherently wrong, and is only wrong when done for a wrongful purpose. I don't think that protecting your grades is a wrongful purpose.


You're correct to say that cheating is inherently bad, not funny, and always wrong. You're also correct that snitching is not inherently wrong, to wit, immoral. I wouldn't necessarily even qualify it by addressing the purpose, since the purpose is always the same: to bring somebody down. A snitch in this sitch is not trying to protect her grade: she's only seeking to destroy the cheater's grade. And sure, everybody would like to see a cheater's grade attenuated appropriately. But there is a line of demarcation underlying the benefits of tattling, and a prudent person knows when and when not to cross it. Nobody likes a cheater. But habitual cheaters are always discovered sooner or later. When you snitch out a classmate to the school for writing longer than she should have during a take-home exam, and that classmate suffers the consequences, you had better be prepared to sit by yourself in the corner for the rest of your law school experience because you too will be shunned. The reason? If I find a dime on the floor and put it in my purse instead of turning it in to the school, you'll probably snitch. Sorry, but I don't want anything to do with people like that. Please sit in your self-satisfied shroud of self-righteousness over on that side of room. You'll be feared, but you won't be liked or respected by anybody.

Incidentally, I am meticulously honest. If I spotted a dime on the floor, I would ignore it.

I also disagree with the person who referenced the professional code of conduct, i.e., the model rules, that compels attorneys to report the moral violations of other attorneys. Those rules are designed to a substantial degree to protect a class of people who cannot protect themselves — the unwary public. Law students can protect themselves against cheaters by learning to apply the law honestly. The law of averages will weed out those who cannot do it without cheating. That said, I agree that the right thing to do was to interrupt the cheater and say, "Hey! Time! Stop writing."

I would submit that if you are going to tell on somebody, at least wait until you've become aware that a serious, unequivocal infraction of moral turpitude has been committed, such as the theft of the exam prior to the test. The informant in that case would not be reproached by others. But here, it's completely foreseeable that some students might take advantage of the clock during a take-home exam, and the satisfaction one may feel for reporting a violation will be forgotten long before the grief that accompanies the reputation of being a tattletale wears off. It seems if the school were all that worried about the time constraints, then it should have required students to use exam software that times the test taker, or not give take-home exams in the first place. (Who gets take-home exams, anyway? I ask you.)

In the end, the cheater is the one who's driving down the road to Loserville. Snitching just puts you in the passenger seat.

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Mr. Pancakes
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Re: Would you tell the professor if...

Postby Mr. Pancakes » Sun Dec 18, 2011 4:21 pm

AspiringAcademic wrote:
Antilles Haven wrote:Meh, I don't know. If your professor would actually care about the fact that someone did take that extra 45 minutes to write their exam then it is unquestionably cheating, and it wasn't exactly a trivial amount of cheating either apparently.

I'm actually shocked this consensus is so far in favor of "if you do tell the professor you are scum of the earth."

TLS is rather weird on certain issues. As someone who taught at a school that expected and required students to report cheating, to the point of forbidding proctors from monitoring exams, I find this discussion rather silly. Sometimes you have a duty to turn in your friends, even when there is a personal cost to doing so. In fact, there is often a personal cost to turning in anyone for anything, so one really might as well get used to thinking about it if one intends to work in a field with ethical standards and mandatory reporting rules.

In this case, there are some complicating factors. Most notably, it is unclear whether there is a strong expectation that the student should report and what would happen if they did. With my background, I'd resolve the ambiguity in favor of reporting. I would probably go to the verbal route just in case the professor says "this is a bloody mess and I don't want to touch it." YMMV

What the OP could have/should have done is call the friend on it during the exam. "Time was up five minutes ago, you really need to stop (we both signed the honor code)" might have saved considerable fuss.


You don't live in the real world.

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Bildungsroman
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Re: Would you tell the professor if...

Postby Bildungsroman » Sun Dec 18, 2011 4:21 pm

Blue text on a blue background, smart choice.




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