WestlawNext's delivery limits

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crEEp
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WestlawNext's delivery limits

Postby crEEp » Mon Dec 05, 2011 2:59 am

Have any of you ever seen the message "This request exceeds 10,000 lines and will use a large portion of the monthly delivery limits." appear on WestlawNext? I'm a little worried that they might actually mean something now that I've seen it more than 10 times...

Westlaw Tech Support
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Re: WestlawNext's delivery limits

Postby Westlaw Tech Support » Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:11 pm

There is a monthly line limit of 600,000 lines (roughly 10,000 pages) on Westlaw Next. The message you received is warning you that you are about to print a large document. Please contact technical support at 1-800-937-8529 if you have any other questions.

Thank you

Westlaw Next Technical Support

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crEEp
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Re: WestlawNext's delivery limits

Postby crEEp » Mon Dec 05, 2011 7:28 pm

Westlaw Tech Support wrote:There is a monthly line limit of 600,000 lines (roughly 10,000 pages) on Westlaw Next. The message you received is warning you that you are about to print a large document. Please contact technical support at 1-800-937-8529 if you have any other questions.

Thank you

Westlaw Next Technical Support


Assuming for the hell of it that you're actually representing Westlaw Next, don't you think it's, oh I don't know, slighlty insensitive and potentially a violation of Article 5 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights ("No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment") to impose a monthly limit on a service that a select few of us wait until the day before exams to use???

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crEEp
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Re: WestlawNext's delivery limits

Postby crEEp » Mon Dec 05, 2011 7:43 pm

Delivery Disabled
Delivery requests allowed for this password have been exceeded. For more information, please contact West Customer Technical Support at 1-800-850-WEST (9378).


Son of a bitch.

Renzo
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Re: WestlawNext's delivery limits

Postby Renzo » Tue Dec 06, 2011 11:36 pm

crEEp wrote:
Delivery Disabled
Delivery requests allowed for this password have been exceeded. For more information, please contact West Customer Technical Support at 1-800-850-WEST (9378).


Son of a bitch.


Dude. I am sorry to be insensitive, but I am laughing my ass off at your misfortune. How the fuck could you possibly print 10,000 pages in a month?

I mean, I'm a pretty fast reader, and I read about a page a minute if it's not too dense (probably more like 1/4 or 1/8 of that if it's legal material). So optimistically, I could read 10,000 pages of simple material in 20 days, if I read consistently for 8 hours a day, without losing focus or concentration.

lawnerd1
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Re: WestlawNext's delivery limits

Postby lawnerd1 » Wed Dec 07, 2011 1:42 am

Renzo wrote:
crEEp wrote:
Delivery Disabled
Delivery requests allowed for this password have been exceeded. For more information, please contact West Customer Technical Support at 1-800-850-WEST (9378).


Son of a bitch.


Dude. I am sorry to be insensitive, but I am laughing my ass off at your misfortune. How the fuck could you possibly print 10,000 pages in a month?

I mean, I'm a pretty fast reader, and I read about a page a minute if it's not too dense (probably more like 1/4 or 1/8 of that if it's legal material). So optimistically, I could read 10,000 pages of simple material in 20 days, if I read consistently for 8 hours a day, without losing focus or concentration.


Cool story.

Renzo
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Re: WestlawNext's delivery limits

Postby Renzo » Wed Dec 07, 2011 6:08 pm

lawnerd1 wrote:
Renzo wrote:
crEEp wrote:
Delivery Disabled
Delivery requests allowed for this password have been exceeded. For more information, please contact West Customer Technical Support at 1-800-850-WEST (9378).


Son of a bitch.


Dude. I am sorry to be insensitive, but I am laughing my ass off at your misfortune. How the fuck could you possibly print 10,000 pages in a month?

I mean, I'm a pretty fast reader, and I read about a page a minute if it's not too dense (probably more like 1/4 or 1/8 of that if it's legal material). So optimistically, I could read 10,000 pages of simple material in 20 days, if I read consistently for 8 hours a day, without losing focus or concentration.


Cool story.


I'm sorry; I'll slow down, so as not to lose the mentally challenged audience:

10,000 pages is very many pages. I wonder if I could read that many pages in a month? If I use math, and figure out how long it would take, it turns out that even though I am a pretty fast reader, there is no way in hell I would be able to read 10,000 pages of stuff I printed from Westlaw in a month.

Now I wonder; what the OP is doing with all that paper?

I also wonder how tall all that paper would be if you stacked it. I think I will go use google to find out, But I won't post it here, because some assclown might not be as interested as I am, and he might post a tired joke in response.

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crEEp
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Re: WestlawNext's delivery limits

Postby crEEp » Wed Dec 07, 2011 9:42 pm

Renzo wrote:I'm sorry; I'll slow down, so as not to lose the mentally challenged audience:

10,000 pages is very many pages. I wonder if I could read that many pages in a month? If I use math, and figure out how long it would take, it turns out that even though I am a pretty fast reader, there is no way in hell I would be able to read 10,000 pages of stuff I printed from Westlaw in a month.

Now I wonder; what the OP is doing with all that paper?

I also wonder how tall all that paper would be if you stacked it. I think I will go use google to find out, But I won't post it here, because some assclown might not be as interested as I am, and he might post a tired joke in response.


Sorry, I'll clarify a little so as not to keep you all in suspense. I didn't print any of those pages to paper--it's entirely digital. If it were printed, I'd imagine it'd be roughly 10,000 pages, though. Regardless, I have a lot of experience with artificial intelligence and machine learning, so what I do with this data is feed it into a relatively complicated classification algorithm that extracts from each document the relevant information pertaining to my course.

I could just view it in the browser for this, but it's *far* easier to download each collection and analyze it locally--doing the same by navigating westlaw (which uses javascript redirects to the extent that they neuter traditional automated navigation approaches) and parsing the resultant html is, to put it mildly, a fucking nightmare. PDFs are so much easier.

In the end, I'm able to create my own outlines, automatically, which draw from statutes, cases, briefs/memos, and law review articles the material most closely relating to what was covered in class (based on a semantic analysis of my class notes). Once curated by me, it turns into something highly useful on the exam, complete with well-phrased arguments taken straight from documents submitted to courts.

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sunynp
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Re: WestlawNext's delivery limits

Postby sunynp » Wed Dec 07, 2011 10:04 pm

OP can I marry you?

crazyblink653
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Re: WestlawNext's delivery limits

Postby crazyblink653 » Wed Dec 07, 2011 10:13 pm

crEEp wrote:
Renzo wrote:I'm sorry; I'll slow down, so as not to lose the mentally challenged audience:

10,000 pages is very many pages. I wonder if I could read that many pages in a month? If I use math, and figure out how long it would take, it turns out that even though I am a pretty fast reader, there is no way in hell I would be able to read 10,000 pages of stuff I printed from Westlaw in a month.

Now I wonder; what the OP is doing with all that paper?

I also wonder how tall all that paper would be if you stacked it. I think I will go use google to find out, But I won't post it here, because some assclown might not be as interested as I am, and he might post a tired joke in response.


Sorry, I'll clarify a little so as not to keep you all in suspense. I didn't print any of those pages to paper--it's entirely digital. If it were printed, I'd imagine it'd be roughly 10,000 pages, though. Regardless, I have a lot of experience with artificial intelligence and machine learning, so what I do with this data is feed it into a relatively complicated classification algorithm that extracts from each document the relevant information pertaining to my course.

I could just view it in the browser for this, but it's *far* easier to download each collection and analyze it locally--doing the same by navigating westlaw (which uses javascript redirects to the extent that they neuter traditional automated navigation approaches) and parsing the resultant html is, to put it mildly, a fucking nightmare. PDFs are so much easier.

In the end, I'm able to create my own outlines, automatically, which draw from statutes, cases, briefs/memos, and law review articles the material most closely relating to what was covered in class (based on a semantic analysis of my class notes). Once curated by me, it turns into something highly useful on the exam, complete with well-phrased arguments taken straight from documents submitted to courts.


if you're NOT just making this shit up (i honestly don't know enough techno-speak to tell if you are), you should drop out of LS and just develop your program to sell to law students. you would make SO much money...

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FlanAl
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Re: WestlawNext's delivery limits

Postby FlanAl » Wed Dec 07, 2011 10:14 pm

thats the coolest thing I've ever heard. man i wish i was good at computers

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drdolittle
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Re: WestlawNext's delivery limits

Postby drdolittle » Wed Dec 07, 2011 10:35 pm

If OP could get a computer (other than OP's own brain) to take exams too, OP would be all set.

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crEEp
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Re: WestlawNext's delivery limits

Postby crEEp » Wed Dec 07, 2011 10:37 pm

crazyblink653 wrote:if you're NOT just making this shit up (i honestly don't know enough techno-speak to tell if you are), you should drop out of LS and just develop your program to sell to law students. you would make SO much money...


Nah, I'm totally serious. I do research at my university on these algorithms & will probably go for a phd in it after law school (I *hopefully* graduate in may).

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crEEp
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Re: WestlawNext's delivery limits

Postby crEEp » Wed Dec 07, 2011 10:37 pm

drdolittle wrote:If OP could get a computer (other than OP's own brain) to take exams too, OP would be all set.


in a perfect world :(

crazyblink653
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Re: WestlawNext's delivery limits

Postby crazyblink653 » Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:03 am

crEEp wrote:
crazyblink653 wrote:if you're NOT just making this shit up (i honestly don't know enough techno-speak to tell if you are), you should drop out of LS and just develop your program to sell to law students. you would make SO much money...


Nah, I'm totally serious. I do research at my university on these algorithms & will probably go for a phd in it after law school (I *hopefully* graduate in may).


that's awesome. have you used the algorithm to create outlines for exams before, or is this first time your trying it out?

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crEEp
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Re: WestlawNext's delivery limits

Postby crEEp » Thu Dec 08, 2011 1:35 am

crazyblink653 wrote:that's awesome. have you used the algorithm to create outlines for exams before, or is this first time your trying it out?


It's funny, last year I went all-in on the assumption that it worked. I was really short on time, hadn't studied for one particular class, and didn't have time to figure out the best outline to use on the final. I'm clearly no shining star of a law student, so I downloaded all the outlines I could find for that class. I queried each one against my notes and the table of contents of the text book, which I scanned & OCR'd. It found the *perfect* outline, and I was elated to get the median grade in a class for which I did absolutely no work. Fewer feelings in law school are as profoundly great as that one.

Renzo
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Re: WestlawNext's delivery limits

Postby Renzo » Thu Dec 08, 2011 9:23 pm

This thread is awesome. I started out thinking you were some crazed, hopeless, and overworked law student flailing around uselessly. Turns out you are a supergenius making incredibly efficient use of your time.


Image

03121202698008
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Re: WestlawNext's delivery limits

Postby 03121202698008 » Thu Dec 08, 2011 9:44 pm

Or an elaborate flame using an alt. WTF would Westlaw be on TLS? No way your algorithm is this good or Westlaw would be hiring you not blocking you.

Edit: I take back the alt on Westlaw...but OP is still a flame.

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Unitas
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Re: WestlawNext's delivery limits

Postby Unitas » Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:19 pm

blowhard wrote:Or an elaborate flame using an alt. WTF would Westlaw be on TLS? No way your algorithm is this good or Westlaw would be hiring you not blocking you.

Edit: I take back the alt on Westlaw...but OP is still a flame.


Westlaw does limit you like this. I can confirm that. I am not sure what OP thinks he is doing though with his "algorithm." there is no way to parse what is important in cases since they are too variable. Sometimes the holding means crap and some random saying is all important. Than again OPs major accomplishment is median with little work which is probably an indication of his system not being too effective.

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: WestlawNext's delivery limits

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:26 pm

Um, screw selling this to law students. Firms would be all over this.

Seriously, OP, if you aren't flame, then you're going to end up being a multi-millionare. Stop caring about Law School immediately and get a patent on this :shock:

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dailygrind
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Re: WestlawNext's delivery limits

Postby dailygrind » Thu Dec 08, 2011 10:28 pm

Unitas wrote:
blowhard wrote:Or an elaborate flame using an alt. WTF would Westlaw be on TLS? No way your algorithm is this good or Westlaw would be hiring you not blocking you.

Edit: I take back the alt on Westlaw...but OP is still a flame.


Westlaw does limit you like this. I can confirm that. I am not sure what OP thinks he is doing though with his "algorithm." there is no way to parse what is important in cases since they are too variable. Sometimes the holding means crap and some random saying is all important. Than again OPs major accomplishment is median with little work which is probably an indication of his system not being too effective.


It needs more samples. But if I could guarantee myself median in any particular class with little work, I would be ecstatic.

Renzo
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Re: WestlawNext's delivery limits

Postby Renzo » Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:01 pm

dailygrind wrote:
Unitas wrote:
blowhard wrote:Or an elaborate flame using an alt. WTF would Westlaw be on TLS? No way your algorithm is this good or Westlaw would be hiring you not blocking you.

Edit: I take back the alt on Westlaw...but OP is still a flame.


Westlaw does limit you like this. I can confirm that. I am not sure what OP thinks he is doing though with his "algorithm." there is no way to parse what is important in cases since they are too variable. Sometimes the holding means crap and some random saying is all important. Than again OPs major accomplishment is median with little work which is probably an indication of his system not being too effective.


It needs more samples. But if I could guarantee myself median in any particular class with little work, I would be ecstatic.


Fuck yeah. Especially as a 3L. Because it's either little work and bad grades, or little work and guaranteed median; there's isn't another viable option.

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Unitas
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Re: WestlawNext's delivery limits

Postby Unitas » Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:06 pm

Renzo wrote:
dailygrind wrote:
Unitas wrote:
blowhard wrote:Or an elaborate flame using an alt. WTF would Westlaw be on TLS? No way your algorithm is this good or Westlaw would be hiring you not blocking you.

Edit: I take back the alt on Westlaw...but OP is still a flame.


Westlaw does limit you like this. I can confirm that. I am not sure what OP thinks he is doing though with his "algorithm." there is no way to parse what is important in cases since they are too variable. Sometimes the holding means crap and some random saying is all important. Than again OPs major accomplishment is median with little work which is probably an indication of his system not being too effective.


It needs more samples. But if I could guarantee myself median in any particular class with little work, I would be ecstatic.


Fuck yeah. Especially as a 3L. Because it's either little work and bad grades, or little work and guaranteed median; there's isn't another viable option.


2 points to be made. First, if everyone had the software then everyone would obviously not be made median. Second, as I pointed out the idea is highly flawed and arguably impossible. Each case is different, each writer is different. You cannot make a script that will search for the "important" text without having a universal criteria for what is important. Given this is impossible with a huge variety in authors and how they write and what future courts find important about previous cases no algorithm is going to find that. Even more so the algorithm, if created, would be much better suited to search individual textbooks for the highlights of them. Most textbooks cut down supreme court language from 1/2 up to 9/10 of the language in the actual opinion making it far easier to parse the language for the "important" bits.

Furthermore, this algorithm would then not only have to account for what is certainly not an objective test of what is important in each case, but would then also have to account for a professors preference in the cases and how they are presented.

And I'm also pretty sure this algorithm was a test question on one of the practice LSATs I took in the RC section.

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dailygrind
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Re: WestlawNext's delivery limits

Postby dailygrind » Thu Dec 08, 2011 11:11 pm

Unitas wrote:First, if everyone had the software then everyone would obviously not be made median.


Irrelevant to the OP. It'd be like an arms race with him as a weapons supplier. Pretty schweet place to be.

Second, as I pointed out the idea is highly flawed and arguably impossible. Each case is different, each writer is different. You cannot make a script that will search for the "important" text without having a universal criteria for what is important. Given this is impossible with a huge variety in authors and how they write and what future courts find important about previous cases no algorithm is going to find that. Even more so the algorithm, if created, would be much better suited to search individual textbooks for the highlights of them. Most textbooks cut down supreme court language from 1/2 up to 9/10 of the language in the actual opinion making it far easier to parse the language for the "important" bits.

Furthermore, this algorithm would then not only have to account for what is certainly not an objective test of what is important in each case, but would then also have to account for a professors preference in the cases and how they are presented.


I'm skeptical too, but like they say. Proof's in the pudding. Maybe OP can keep making it happen.

03121202698008
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Re: WestlawNext's delivery limits

Postby 03121202698008 » Fri Dec 09, 2011 8:25 am

If he can do it, why not post a screenshot at least of it running. Huh OP?




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