Use first name for Partner/Associates/Recruiter?

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Renzo
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Re: Use first name for Partner/Associates/Recruiter?

Postby Renzo » Sat Dec 03, 2011 1:25 pm

headandshoulderos wrote:itt: people are stiffs...


...and one poster has poor etiquette.

062914123
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Re: Use first name for Partner/Associates/Recruiter?

Postby 062914123 » Sat Dec 03, 2011 1:38 pm

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headandshoulderos
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Re: Use first name for Partner/Associates/Recruiter?

Postby headandshoulderos » Sat Dec 03, 2011 1:40 pm

Renzo wrote:
headandshoulderos wrote:itt: people are stiffs...


...and one poster has poor etiquette.


ok... i'm just saying it works for me. the mr. contingent has basically backed off their original position to just saying, only use mr. if the other person is 20+ years older than you. that can obviously be debated as well, but if you think this is a clear issue with only one true answer then you may be mistaken.

i think the arguments for mr. concede that it devalues yourself in the relationship and sets up a hierarchy. and I strongly disagree with the idea that interviewers should cultivate a perception that they are "kids" with hiring partners. it's not a question of disrespect, it's about confidence and avoiding being overly formal. so many people get dinged on interviewers because they aren't perceived as a good fit. well, if you roll into an office culture where people think mr/ms is antiquated then you are hurting yourself. that's why my position is that it depends on context, but there is no way mr./ms. should be the default.

headandshoulderos
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Re: Use first name for Partner/Associates/Recruiter?

Postby headandshoulderos » Sat Dec 03, 2011 1:41 pm

bee wrote:
headandshoulderos wrote:itt: people are stiffs


When I read your first response it honestly shocked me that there was someone out there that called their superiors in a business setting by their first name in an initial email/phone call. I happen to also be in California (born and raised in Los Angeles, so not one you considered conservative), and I would never, ever call a superior--especially someone who could hire me or NOT hire me--by their first name without being invited to do so. It would just feel wrong and disrespectful to me.

If you managed to avoid offending anybody by being a "namer," more power to you, but @OP, I think it is definitely a safer bet to use Mr/Ms, excluding the occasional outliers (never encountered one myself) who will absolutely hate it.


in what industry?

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Re: Use first name for Partner/Associates/Recruiter?

Postby 062914123 » Sat Dec 03, 2011 1:42 pm

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headandshoulderos
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Re: Use first name for Partner/Associates/Recruiter?

Postby headandshoulderos » Sat Dec 03, 2011 1:45 pm

bee wrote:
headandshoulderos wrote:
bee wrote:
headandshoulderos wrote:itt: people are stiffs


When I read your first response it honestly shocked me that there was someone out there that called their superiors in a business setting by their first name in an initial email/phone call. I happen to also be in California (born and raised in Los Angeles, so not one you considered conservative), and I would never, ever call a superior--especially someone who could hire me or NOT hire me--by their first name without being invited to do so. It would just feel wrong and disrespectful to me.

If you managed to avoid offending anybody by being a "namer," more power to you, but @OP, I think it is definitely a safer bet to use Mr/Ms, excluding the occasional outliers (never encountered one myself) who will absolutely hate it.


in what industry?


Mayor's office and law firms.


maybe politics is different, and i guess some firm cultures might be more formal than others. i just think with being overly formal, an interviewer might not be able to picture you working alongside them, which has to happen for you to be offered a job.

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romothesavior
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Re: Use first name for Partner/Associates/Recruiter?

Postby romothesavior » Sat Dec 03, 2011 1:52 pm

headandshoulderos wrote:in what industry?

Look man, you may think we're "stiffs," but you are in a very, very small minority. If there was a poll, I'd imagine close to everyone would disagree with you about using first names to address a partner you don't even know about a job. Every CSO office in the country would tell you you're wrong. Maybe you can get away with callling an associate by their first name in an introductory email, but if you're sending a professional email (or Jesus Christ... a cover letter) to a partner or recruiter, they're your superior and you follow business etiquette.

You ask "What makes "Mr." professional?" I dunno. It it is viewed as respectful and deferential, which is what you should be when looking for a job. What makes wearing a suit to an interview professional? Are you going to show up in a t-shirt and jeans just to show everyone how confident and non-stiff you are?

It's etiquette, you're breaking it, good for you. But don't come in here calling everyone else a "stiff" when you're in exceedingly small minority. And don't give OP bad advice.

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theavrock
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Re: Use first name for Partner/Associates/Recruiter?

Postby theavrock » Sat Dec 03, 2011 1:55 pm

In an Interview/recruiting setting -

Use Mr./Ms. Last Name until told other wise or until they say otherwise. It is as simple as that. As one who has worked in professional settings for some time and hired people, this is the way to do it.

Even in this situation most often times the interviewer will say "Hi there, my name is First Name." Then use their first name. If you already know their name and are the first to talk use Mr./Ms. last name. They will then say call me First Name. If they don't use Mr./Ms.

It's not rocket science.

heads and shoulders is right in the business world everyone uses first names, but this is because you are generally on the same level ie: not a snot nosed law student begging for a jerb. Additionally, often when you are in a business setting you are meeting people and they tell you their first name, which is why you use it.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Use first name for Partner/Associates/Recruiter?

Postby vanwinkle » Sat Dec 03, 2011 1:55 pm

Moved to an appropriate forum.

headandshoulderos
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Re: Use first name for Partner/Associates/Recruiter?

Postby headandshoulderos » Sat Dec 03, 2011 2:00 pm

romothesavior wrote:
headandshoulderos wrote:in what industry?

Look man, you may think we're "stiffs," but you are in a very, very small minority. If there was a poll, I'd imagine close to everyone would disagree with you about using first names to address a partner you don't even know about a job. Every CSO office in the country would tell you you're wrong. Maybe you can get away with callling an associate by their first name in an introductory email, but if you're sending a professional email (or Jesus Christ... a cover letter) to a partner or recruiter, they're your superior and you follow business etiquette.

You ask "What makes "Mr." professional?" I dunno. It it is viewed as respectful and deferential, which is what you should be when looking for a job. What makes wearing a suit to an interview professional? Are you going to show up in a t-shirt and jeans just to show everyone how confident and non-stiff you are?

It's etiquette, you're breaking it, good for you. But don't come in here calling everyone else a "stiff" when you're in exceedingly small minority. And don't give OP bad advice.


oP can make their own choices. I'm just presenting my opinion and backing up with some reasoning. I think CSO's generally give poor advice on interview etiquette, fwiw. i would also say that interviewing in a suit shows professionalism enough, and there's no need to lay it on thick with mr./ms. as well. i think the correct answer here is to do what makes you comfortable, because whether or not you are comfortable will come across more than how you use a greeting.

i like your style of argumentation (the sky is falling and everyone who disagrees with me is in the minority because 5 ppl on a forum agree with me) but the facts are that cover letters can sound very professional and respectful with a personal greeting rather than a mr.

we'll never know. but don't jump down my throat for "giving bad advice," we're all adults here (my main point).

i've never been a law firm recruiter, but i've interviewed plenty of folks and nobody ever called me mr., and i never thought they were rude.

i agree with theavrock... and I bet you will find that if you give people a chance to tell you their name (Hi, I'm X. They respond hi, I'm X), they won't say I'm Mr. Stiff in most cases.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Use first name for Partner/Associates/Recruiter?

Postby vanwinkle » Sat Dec 03, 2011 2:01 pm

romothesavior wrote:
headandshoulderos wrote:in what industry?

Look man, you may think we're "stiffs," but you are in a very, very small minority. If there was a poll, I'd imagine close to everyone would disagree with you about using first names to address a partner you don't even know about a job. Every CSO office in the country would tell you you're wrong. Maybe you can get away with callling an associate by their first name in an introductory email, but if you're sending a professional email (or Jesus Christ... a cover letter) to a partner or recruiter, they're your superior and you follow business etiquette.

This. You're seeking a job in a professional industry, and one that's pretty conservative in hiring practices still. There are certain things you're expected to do, and which automatically make you look lazy or disrespectful when you don't do them. You address people properly as Mr. or Ms. You wear a suit and tie to interviews. You arrive on time. These are things that communicate respect and seriousness, and in this hiring market, you don't do things that send the wrong message.

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vanwinkle
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Re: Use first name for Partner/Associates/Recruiter?

Postby vanwinkle » Sat Dec 03, 2011 2:04 pm

headandshoulderos wrote:we'll never know. but don't jump down my throat for "giving bad advice," we're all adults here (my main point).

You're not here anymore. Banned for alting and (looking at post history) trolling.

Probably an alt of 0L too, from the looks of it.

Renzo
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Re: Use first name for Partner/Associates/Recruiter?

Postby Renzo » Sat Dec 03, 2011 2:10 pm

vanwinkle wrote:
headandshoulderos wrote:we'll never know. but don't jump down my throat for "giving bad advice," we're all adults here (my main point).

You're not here anymore. Banned for alting and (looking at post history) trolling.

Probably an alt of 0L too, from the looks of it.


Weird troll, but effective I guess.

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cinephile
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Re: Use first name for Partner/Associates/Recruiter?

Postby cinephile » Sat Dec 03, 2011 2:14 pm

Richie Tenenbaum wrote:
One more story: a friend called a screener interviewer "ms. xxx." She told him after the interview, one-on-one, that she was offended by him referring to her in that way. She may be an extreme case, but I think the general idea is this: people don't like being called old, which some people insinuate from being called by the title mr or ms.


Could it have been that she preferred being called Miss?

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: Use first name for Partner/Associates/Recruiter?

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Sat Dec 03, 2011 4:02 pm

cinephile wrote:
Richie Tenenbaum wrote:
One more story: a friend called a screener interviewer "ms. xxx." She told him after the interview, one-on-one, that she was offended by him referring to her in that way. She may be an extreme case, but I think the general idea is this: people don't like being called old, which some people insinuate from being called by the title mr or ms.


Could it have been that she preferred being called Miss?


Maybe he said ma'am and that's what irked her, don't really remember. But I think she was just an intense person all-around. Def not the norm, but the anecdote wasn't meant to show a norm, just counter the idea that formality is always the safe bet. I think the safe bet is mimicking the level of formality of the other person--which usually in person means first names because that's how at least everyone one of my screeners introduced themselves. Cover letters and initial emails are a whole different story.

Another anecdote: During a dinner during OCI with a few students with some associates and partners from a firm, one student said "sir" to a young partner. His answer was something like:"Christ don't call me sir, you'll make me feel old as shit." He was pretty informal in how he interacted with everyone and it was obvious he wanted people to be less formal with him. This is basic human interaction 101--you fit in with a group by adjusting. Sir/mr. seems to be a good fit for a 60 year old partner. A good chunk of the people I interacted with were younger and seemed much more intent on finding a person they would be able to drink a beer with.
Last edited by Richie Tenenbaum on Sat Dec 03, 2011 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

shock259
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Re: Use first name for Partner/Associates/Recruiter?

Postby shock259 » Sat Dec 03, 2011 4:08 pm

I make up nicknames for partners/judges based on their first names when I mail cover letters. It's pretty time consuming when you are sending out a lot, but it's definitely worth it. It makes them feel all warm inside when they get it.

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acrossthelake
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Re: Use first name for Partner/Associates/Recruiter?

Postby acrossthelake » Sat Dec 03, 2011 5:20 pm

Richie Tenenbaum wrote:
cinephile wrote:
Richie Tenenbaum wrote:
One more story: a friend called a screener interviewer "ms. xxx." She told him after the interview, one-on-one, that she was offended by him referring to her in that way. She may be an extreme case, but I think the general idea is this: people don't like being called old, which some people insinuate from being called by the title mr or ms.


Could it have been that she preferred being called Miss?


Maybe he said ma'am and that's what irked her, don't really remember. But I think she was just an intense person all-around. Def not the norm, but the anecdote wasn't meant to show a norm, just counter the idea that formality is always the safe bet. I think the safe bet is mimicking the level of formality of the other person--which usually in person means first names because that's how at least everyone one of my screeners introduced themselves. Cover letters and initial emails are a whole different story.

Another anecdote: During a dinner during OCI with a few students with some associates and partners from a firm, one student said "sir" to a young partner. His answer was something like:"Christ don't call me sir, you'll make me feel old as shit." He was pretty informal in how he interacted with everyone and it was obvious he wanted people to be less formal with him. This is basic human interaction 101--you fit in with a group by adjusting. Sir/mr. seems to be a good fit for a 60 year old partner. A good chunk of the people I interacted with were younger and seemed much more intent on finding a person they would be able to drink a beer with.


I don't think I've ever seen anybody say "m'am" or "sir" outside of jokes with peers or on television shows. Maybe it's a regional thing.

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: Use first name for Partner/Associates/Recruiter?

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Sat Dec 03, 2011 5:42 pm

acrossthelake wrote:I don't think I've ever seen anybody say "m'am" or "sir" outside of jokes with peers or on television shows. Maybe it's a regional thing.


It is (Texas). Not to make it seem like it's the norm to use "ma'm" or "sir" in everyday conversation, but it's not unusual to hear it pretty often.

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romothesavior
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Re: Use first name for Partner/Associates/Recruiter?

Postby romothesavior » Sat Dec 03, 2011 5:55 pm

acrossthelake wrote:I don't think I've ever seen anybody say "m'am" or "sir" outside of jokes with peers or on television shows. Maybe it's a regional thing.
"
I say sir and ma'am all all the time when I'm waiting tables. And I probably say, "Excuse me, sir? or whatever in limited instances when I'm addressing a stranger.

The "Yes sir" and "Yes ma'am" thing is regional (see: southern, and maybe Midwestern rural), but what else would you say to someone you don't even know?

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dood
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Re: Use first name for Partner/Associates/Recruiter?

Postby dood » Sat Dec 03, 2011 6:32 pm

    - i use "mr." and "mrs." in 1st email / cover letter / communication.
    - i use first name afterwards when its a chick.
    - i use "dude" afterwards when its a dude over 40.
    - i use "bro" afterwards when its a dude younger than 40.

just use whatever u'r comfortable with. above all else, people hate posers.

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dood
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Re: Use first name for Partner/Associates/Recruiter?

Postby dood » Sat Dec 03, 2011 6:37 pm

romothesavior wrote:The "Yes sir" and "Yes ma'am" thing is regional (see: southern, and maybe Midwestern rural), but what else would you say to someone you don't even know?


sometimes i say "yes sir/ma'am" when i want someone to know im seriously on it but still in a joking manner. other times i yell "ROGER THAT" in the same context.

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Re: Use first name for Partner/Associates/Recruiter?

Postby MrPapagiorgio » Sat Dec 03, 2011 6:43 pm

dood wrote:
    - i use "mr." and "mrs." in 1st email / cover letter / communication.
    - i use first name afterwards when its a chick.
    - i use "dude" afterwards when its a dude over 40.
    - i use "bro" afterwards when its a dude younger than 40.

just use whatever u'r comfortable with. above all else, people hate posers.

Word. I also recommend walking into the interview and saying "how you doin boss" and pound the interviewer. And I like to finish with "thanks a lot chief."

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acrossthelake
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Re: Use first name for Partner/Associates/Recruiter?

Postby acrossthelake » Sat Dec 03, 2011 6:54 pm

romothesavior wrote:
acrossthelake wrote:I don't think I've ever seen anybody say "m'am" or "sir" outside of jokes with peers or on television shows. Maybe it's a regional thing.
"
I say sir and ma'am all all the time when I'm waiting tables. And I probably say, "Excuse me, sir? or whatever in limited instances when I'm addressing a stranger.

The "Yes sir" and "Yes ma'am" thing is regional (see: southern, and maybe Midwestern rural), but what else would you say to someone you don't even know?


Yeah past the age of 5 I haven't been to the South or the Midwest except in airports when transferring flights, which hardly counts. I just leave it out. I'm pretty sure I'm not the exception either. Instead of say, "Excuse me, sir, do you know where 5th street is?" you would just say while making eye contact, "Excuse me, do you know where 5th street is?"
I've had waiters/waitresses address me as "Miss"(or Ms. Sounds the same spoken), but I don't see males I'm around addressed as sir, either. Maybe once in a long while.

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romothesavior
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Re: Use first name for Partner/Associates/Recruiter?

Postby romothesavior » Sat Dec 03, 2011 7:37 pm

What if you were trying to get someone's attention? I can't tell you how many times I have to say, "Sir? (pause) Sir? (pause) Uhh... sir???" while I'm serving to get some guy's attention in a respectful manner. I'm not gonna be like "YO DUDE! I'm tryina get cho attenshun!"

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acrossthelake
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Re: Use first name for Partner/Associates/Recruiter?

Postby acrossthelake » Sat Dec 03, 2011 7:40 pm

romothesavior wrote:What if you were trying to get someone's attention? I can't tell you how many times I have to say, "Sir? (pause) Sir? (pause) Uhh... sir???" while I'm serving to get some guy's attention in a respectful manner. I'm not gonna be like "YO DUDE! I'm tryina get cho attenshun!"


I just keep being like, "Excuse me? (pause) Excuse me? (pause) Excuse me??" People trying to get my attention when it's me will eventually just tap me on the shoulder.

Also re: topic I actually recently debated whether to address an associate I was e-mailing with as either Mr. ___ or his first name. He had signed his previous e-mail with his name (and a smiley face), but I figured he wouldn't be offended if I stayed formal and went with Mr. ___ one time too many. He told me in the next e-mail to address him by his first name, but didn't seem offended that I had stayed formal. I've generally been taught to go with Mr__ and Ms. ___ until I'm told I can do otherwise. Also, I'm fairly young, and not far out of the general "respect your elders and always address them as Mr/Ms." zone of life.




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