Administrative Law

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ph14
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Re: Administrative Law

Postby ph14 » Fri Dec 02, 2011 10:18 pm

kalvano wrote:
ph14 wrote:Nah. We cover adjudication although very briefly. Stuff like informal adjudication vs. formal adjudication.



Oh, you mean like 553 and 5567 & 557? Yeah, we covered all that. It'll be on there under rulemaking.

To me, at least when I organize, even though the names are the same, I have to separate out adjudication in terms of rulemaking and adjudication in terms of hearings and judicial review. Part of my confusion at the beginning of the year was trying to figure out what the prof meant when he referred to adjudication.

Also, aren't you a 1L? How are you in Admin Law?


They fast tracked me because they were impressed by my comments in class.


(school requires it)

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kalvano
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Re: Administrative Law

Postby kalvano » Fri Dec 02, 2011 10:19 pm

ph14 wrote:
kalvano wrote:
ph14 wrote:Nah. We cover adjudication although very briefly. Stuff like informal adjudication vs. formal adjudication.



Oh, you mean like 553 and 5567 & 557? Yeah, we covered all that. It'll be on there under rulemaking.

To me, at least when I organize, even though the names are the same, I have to separate out adjudication in terms of rulemaking and adjudication in terms of hearings and judicial review. Part of my confusion at the beginning of the year was trying to figure out what the prof meant when he referred to adjudication.

Also, aren't you a 1L? How are you in Admin Law?


They fast tracked me because they were impressed by my comments in class.


(school requires it)



That's a weird requirement. It's a hard class.

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ph14
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Re: Administrative Law

Postby ph14 » Fri Dec 02, 2011 10:20 pm

kalvano wrote:
ph14 wrote:
kalvano wrote:
ph14 wrote:Nah. We cover adjudication although very briefly. Stuff like informal adjudication vs. formal adjudication.



Oh, you mean like 553 and 5567 & 557? Yeah, we covered all that. It'll be on there under rulemaking.

To me, at least when I organize, even though the names are the same, I have to separate out adjudication in terms of rulemaking and adjudication in terms of hearings and judicial review. Part of my confusion at the beginning of the year was trying to figure out what the prof meant when he referred to adjudication.

Also, aren't you a 1L? How are you in Admin Law?


They fast tracked me because they were impressed by my comments in class.


(school requires it)



That's a weird requirement. It's a hard class.


I completely agree, on both counts.

smittytron3k
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Re: Administrative Law

Postby smittytron3k » Fri Dec 02, 2011 11:58 pm

ph14, are you in Admin or LegReg? I always assumed you were in LegReg based on the questions you were asking (i.e. about Benzene and American Trucking).

FWIW, mine is organized (per the syllabus) as:

Adjudication
Agency Interpretations of Law
Oversight of Agency Policymaking
Judicial Review of Agency Action
Last edited by smittytron3k on Sat Dec 03, 2011 12:02 am, edited 2 times in total.

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ph14
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Re: Administrative Law

Postby ph14 » Fri Dec 02, 2011 11:59 pm

smittytron3k wrote:ph14, are you in Admin or LegReg? I always assumed you were in LegReg based on the questions you were asking (i.e. about Benzene and American Trucking).


Leg Reg. Just easier to call it admin though lol.

PS, thanks again for all the help.

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wiseowl
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Re: Administrative Law

Postby wiseowl » Sat Dec 03, 2011 12:03 am

I got some help from "A BLACKLETTER STATEMENT OF FEDERAL ADMINISTRATIVE LAW", 54 Admin. L. Rev. 1, if you guys haven't seen that yet. Helps simplify things a little bit. Still working at it. :(

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kalvano
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Re: Administrative Law

Postby kalvano » Sat Dec 03, 2011 12:10 am

I really can't stress enough how awesome the Inside Administrative Law by Beermann is.

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beach_terror
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Re: Administrative Law

Postby beach_terror » Sat Dec 03, 2011 1:42 am

Rulemaking outline: 20 pages, argh. Tomorrow is Chevron outlining, hopefully I can finish it off and basically be done with admin until my exam on the 20th. The 5 days before should be sufficient for making attack outlines and practicing with them.

Thedude737
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Re: Administrative Law

Postby Thedude737 » Sat Dec 03, 2011 5:50 pm

I won't say no to a copy of your outline

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beach_terror
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Re: Administrative Law

Postby beach_terror » Sat Dec 03, 2011 8:35 pm

And after 70+ pages of Chevron, my book finally clarifies:

a. Chevron scope: applied to an agency interpretation of a statute announced in a rule issued under general authority through use of notice-and-comment rulemaking

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ph14
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Re: Administrative Law

Postby ph14 » Sat Dec 03, 2011 8:36 pm

beach_terror wrote:And after 70+ pages of Chevron, my book finally clarifies:

a. Chevron scope: applied to an agency interpretation of a statute announced in a rule issued under general authority through use of notice-and-comment rulemaking


I thought Chevron was for agency interpretations of it's organic statute. So it would potentially apply for adjudications as well as rulemakings.

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beach_terror
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Re: Administrative Law

Postby beach_terror » Sat Dec 03, 2011 8:39 pm

ph14 wrote:
beach_terror wrote:And after 70+ pages of Chevron, my book finally clarifies:

a. Chevron scope: applied to an agency interpretation of a statute announced in a rule issued under general authority through use of notice-and-comment rulemaking


I thought Chevron was for agency interpretations of it's organic statute. So it would potentially apply for adjudications as well as rulemakings.

If that's true, my book still hasn't opined such a statement. And yes, reading all of this Justice Scalia nonsense as made me write like an asshole apparently. I still have 60 or so pages until I'm done with Mead, Brand-X, etc.

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beach_terror
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Re: Administrative Law

Postby beach_terror » Sat Dec 03, 2011 8:41 pm

After flipping through kalvano's recommended supplement, you're right as long as it's a formal adjudication it seems.

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ph14
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Re: Administrative Law

Postby ph14 » Sat Dec 03, 2011 8:42 pm

beach_terror wrote:After flipping through kalvano's recommended supplement, you're right as long as it's a formal adjudication it seems.


Gotcha. Why wouldn't it apply to informal adjudication? (not necessarily directed at you because I think you said you guys aren't studying adjudication)

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quiver
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Re: Administrative Law

Postby quiver » Sat Dec 03, 2011 8:48 pm

ph14 wrote:
beach_terror wrote:After flipping through kalvano's recommended supplement, you're right as long as it's a formal adjudication it seems.


Gotcha. Why wouldn't it apply to informal adjudication? (not necessarily directed at you because I think you said you guys aren't studying adjudication)
Under the Mead framework, informal adjudication will usually be entitled to only Skidmore deference; although it is possible to get Chevron deference in certain circumstances (see Barnhart).

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beach_terror
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Re: Administrative Law

Postby beach_terror » Sat Dec 03, 2011 8:56 pm

quiver wrote:
ph14 wrote:
beach_terror wrote:After flipping through kalvano's recommended supplement, you're right as long as it's a formal adjudication it seems.


Gotcha. Why wouldn't it apply to informal adjudication? (not necessarily directed at you because I think you said you guys aren't studying adjudication)
Under the Mead framework, informal adjudication will usually be entitled to only Skidmore deference; although it is possible to get Chevron deference in certain circumstances (see Barnhart).

Yeah. I'm still kind of confused as to where this falls on the big flowchart of administrative law, but the informal/formal distinction governs whether you apply Mead or Chevron.

Side note: I love how courts think that they can intelligibly differentiate between these ridiculous standards of review. Judges: superhuman because they say they are. I still don't think you can even consistently differentiate between reasonable doubt and preponderance, much less this shit (I realize judges and juries are different, but the point stands)

smittytron3k
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Re: Administrative Law

Postby smittytron3k » Sat Dec 03, 2011 10:49 pm

How much are agencies going to be engaged in interpreting their organic statutes (as opposed to their regulations) during the course of an adjudication? If they're interpreting and applying their own regulations, it seems like we'd be in Auer/Seminole Rock territory rather than Chevron territory. What am I missing?
Last edited by smittytron3k on Sat Dec 03, 2011 10:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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kalvano
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Re: Administrative Law

Postby kalvano » Sat Dec 03, 2011 10:52 pm

ph14 wrote:
beach_terror wrote:And after 70+ pages of Chevron, my book finally clarifies:

a. Chevron scope: applied to an agency interpretation of a statute announced in a rule issued under general authority through use of notice-and-comment rulemaking


I thought Chevron was for agency interpretations of it's organic statute. So it would potentially apply for adjudications as well as rulemakings.


Chevron is for agency interpretations of statutes. It doesn't have to be N&C.

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kalvano
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Re: Administrative Law

Postby kalvano » Sat Dec 03, 2011 10:52 pm

beach_terror wrote:After flipping through kalvano's recommended supplement, you're right as long as it's a formal adjudication it seems.


How are you liking it?

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beach_terror
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Re: Administrative Law

Postby beach_terror » Sat Dec 03, 2011 11:00 pm

kalvano wrote:
beach_terror wrote:After flipping through kalvano's recommended supplement, you're right as long as it's a formal adjudication it seems.


How are you liking it?

Only briefly glanced at it, but the organization looks useful. I like to suffer through the text of the cases and try to figure it out together by taking the important quotes to start with. After I'm done I go through and arrange a BLL attack outline and use the best quotes for the rules for it. I'm saving most of the supplement for then. Luckily, my school's library has it so I didn't have to buy that shizz.

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ph14
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Re: Administrative Law

Postby ph14 » Sat Dec 03, 2011 11:01 pm

kalvano wrote:
ph14 wrote:
beach_terror wrote:And after 70+ pages of Chevron, my book finally clarifies:

a. Chevron scope: applied to an agency interpretation of a statute announced in a rule issued under general authority through use of notice-and-comment rulemaking


I thought Chevron was for agency interpretations of it's organic statute. So it would potentially apply for adjudications as well as rulemakings.


Chevron is for agency interpretations of statutes. It doesn't have to be N&C.


N&C?

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beach_terror
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Re: Administrative Law

Postby beach_terror » Sat Dec 03, 2011 11:02 pm

smittytron3k wrote:How much are agencies going to be engaged in interpreting their organic statutes (as opposed to their regulations) during the course of an adjudication? If they're interpreting and applying their own regulations, it seems like we'd be in Auer/Seminole Rock territory rather than Chevron territory. What am I missing?

Law school exams.

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ph14
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Re: Administrative Law

Postby ph14 » Sat Dec 03, 2011 11:02 pm

smittytron3k wrote:How much are agencies going to be engaged in interpreting their organic statutes (as opposed to their regulations) during the course of an adjudication? If they're interpreting and applying their own regulations, it seems like we'd be in Auer/Seminole Rock territory rather than Chevron territory. What am I missing?


If they're interpreting regulations, are we in Skidmore territory?

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beach_terror
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Re: Administrative Law

Postby beach_terror » Sat Dec 03, 2011 11:02 pm

ph14 wrote:
kalvano wrote:
ph14 wrote:
beach_terror wrote:And after 70+ pages of Chevron, my book finally clarifies:

a. Chevron scope: applied to an agency interpretation of a statute announced in a rule issued under general authority through use of notice-and-comment rulemaking


I thought Chevron was for agency interpretations of it's organic statute. So it would potentially apply for adjudications as well as rulemakings.


Chevron is for agency interpretations of statutes. It doesn't have to be N&C.


N&C?

Practice your statutory interpretation, this is an easy one to figure out.

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beach_terror
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Re: Administrative Law

Postby beach_terror » Sat Dec 03, 2011 11:03 pm

ph14 wrote:
smittytron3k wrote:How much are agencies going to be engaged in interpreting their organic statutes (as opposed to their regulations) during the course of an adjudication? If they're interpreting and applying their own regulations, it seems like we'd be in Auer/Seminole Rock territory rather than Chevron territory. What am I missing?


If they're interpreting regulations, are we in Skidmore territory?

No, Skidmore is only for "informal" adjudication/rulemaking I believe. Agency regulations can be formal, and thus would be in Chevron territory.




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