Too late to start outlining?

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johansantana21
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Re: Too late to start outlining?

Postby johansantana21 » Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:25 am

ph14 wrote:
johansantana21 wrote:I hate policy questions...Good thing only 1 exam has a major question devoted to it.


Everyone of my exams is at least 1/3 policy.


Even for classes like Conlaw and civpro?

I can see how contracts and torts can be policy driven but conlaw and civpro?

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Tanicius
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Re: Too late to start outlining?

Postby Tanicius » Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:27 am

johansantana21 wrote:
ph14 wrote:
johansantana21 wrote:I hate policy questions...Good thing only 1 exam has a major question devoted to it.


Everyone of my exams is at least 1/3 policy.


Even for classes like Conlaw and civpro?

I can see how contracts and torts can be policy driven but conlaw and civpro?



How does prep for policy questions differ from issue spotting? I see a lot of policy stuff at the beginning of most outlines, but I'm unsure how to approach this when literally one half of my torts exam will be a policy question.

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JCougar
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Re: Too late to start outlining?

Postby JCougar » Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:28 am

ph14 wrote:I disagree with you a bit here, property seems to be the most technical and complex of my classes, much more so than Civ Pro. For me though, the vast majority of my exams this semester are word restricted to severely word restricted, and policy questions are prominent. Common TLS advice doesn't seem to apply for me. Anyone else in the same boat?


It could be because we didn't get to wills. We spent two days near the end of the semester on fee simple, etc. and none of it even showed up on the exam. Nor did we cover covenants.

I WISH I had a word restricted exam. I'm good at being concise. Not good at exploding an analysis into dozens of little trivialities.

Two out of my three exams this semester are 50% multiple choice, though. I can't wait. Either you get it or you don't. No BSing, no losing points for not adding barely plausible policy arguments, no losing points for not questioning whether the pen used to sign the contract had ink when the facts state that the contract was obviously signed, etc.

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johansantana21
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Re: Too late to start outlining?

Postby johansantana21 » Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:28 am

I actually do not know. My plan for my 1 policy question is to just copy down every single policy issue I have in my outline.

Issue spotter seems a lot more straightforward.

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JCougar
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Re: Too late to start outlining?

Postby JCougar » Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:30 am

Tanicius wrote:
johansantana21 wrote:
ph14 wrote:
johansantana21 wrote:I hate policy questions...Good thing only 1 exam has a major question devoted to it.


Everyone of my exams is at least 1/3 policy.


Even for classes like Conlaw and civpro?

I can see how contracts and torts can be policy driven but conlaw and civpro?



How does prep for policy questions differ from issue spotting? I see a lot of policy stuff at the beginning of most outlines, but I'm unsure how to approach this when literally one half of my torts exam will be a policy question.


In my past experience, you should treat policy questions no different from issue spotters, except you are at liberty to invent your own issues. Don't think because it's an open-ended question that you can go into one or two detailed areas of the law and think of some great policy analysis. The more areas of the doctrine you bring up, the better. The people that basically outline dumped were the ones who did the best on policy questions.

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JCougar
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Re: Too late to start outlining?

Postby JCougar » Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:31 am

johansantana21 wrote:I actually do not know. My plan for my 1 policy question is to just copy down every single policy issue I have in my outline.


Congratulations on achieving Order of the Coif.

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ph14
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Re: Too late to start outlining?

Postby ph14 » Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:33 am

JCougar wrote:
ph14 wrote:I disagree with you a bit here, property seems to be the most technical and complex of my classes, much more so than Civ Pro. For me though, the vast majority of my exams this semester are word restricted to severely word restricted, and policy questions are prominent. Common TLS advice doesn't seem to apply for me. Anyone else in the same boat?


It could be because we didn't get to wills. We spent two days near the end of the semester on fee simple, etc. and none of it even showed up on the exam. Nor did we cover covenants.

I WISH I had a word restricted exam. I'm good at being concise. Not good at exploding an analysis into dozens of little trivialities.

Two out of my three exams this semester are 50% multiple choice, though. I can't wait. Either you get it or you don't. No BSing, no losing points for not adding barely plausible policy arguments, no losing points for not questioning whether the pen used to sign the contract had ink when the facts state that the contract was obviously signed, etc.


I think I agree with you that word restricted exams are easier, but it juts seems harder to distinguish our exams from everyone else. Especially since 1 of my classes is really severely word restricted.

johansantana21 wrote:Even for classes like Conlaw and civpro?

I can see how contracts and torts can be policy driven but conlaw and civpro?


Don't have Conlaw this semester. And yeah, we have a policy question for Civ Pro. It actually isn't that hard, there are tons of things you could talk about for policy questions in Civ pro. For example (just off the top of my head), a question about the Twombly standard and getting into the judicial system, etc.

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TJISMYHERO
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Re: Too late to start outlining?

Postby TJISMYHERO » Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:37 am

ph14 wrote: Don't have Conlaw this semester. And yeah, we have a policy question for Civ Pro. It actually isn't that hard, there are tons of things you could talk about for policy questions in Civ pro. For example (just off the top of my head), a question about the Twombly standard and getting into the judicial system, etc.


Interesting, my civ pro professor is covering everything under the sun, but he treats it like a trade skills class. I'm pretty sure policy won't play much of a role at all in our exam.

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snowpeach06
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Re: Too late to start outlining?

Postby snowpeach06 » Sun Nov 13, 2011 12:45 pm

Con law is all policy. I mean, it's quite literally used as the basis for all of the policy in our country. Say, if we construe commerce clause broadly, it gives the federal government the power to do a lot. This is a good/bad thing, ect. Or equal protection should be used to protect homosexuals, ect, ect.

WSJ_Law
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Re: Too late to start outlining?

Postby WSJ_Law » Sun Nov 13, 2011 2:08 pm

Indifferent wrote:
chimp wrote:Yup it's too late. You might as well drop out now.


And killself hth

law777
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Re: Too late to start outlining?

Postby law777 » Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:00 pm

I am also worried about the time crunch...

What does everyone think about using Lexis/west to find the rule when creating an outline? My plan is to look up the cases we were assigned, use the rule provided on lexis/west, then look at some class notes/old outlines and compile a new revised outline.


Does this seem like a good plan/ will this produce a good outline?

bartleby
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Re: Too late to start outlining?

Postby bartleby » Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:24 pm

doesn't it make more sense to just plow through old exams and siegel's all day?

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Tanicius
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Re: Too late to start outlining?

Postby Tanicius » Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:50 pm

bartleby wrote:doesn't it make more sense to just plow through old exams and siegel's all day?


Well, sure, but that doesn't work if you can't cite to any material and are just blithely throwing out whatever you can remember from weeks ago in class.

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johansantana21
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Re: Too late to start outlining?

Postby johansantana21 » Mon Nov 14, 2011 6:51 pm

How useful is Siegels when your exam doesn't have MC questions?

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biglaw$
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Re: Too late to start outlining?

Postby biglaw$ » Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:02 pm

No, it's not too late.

Step 1 - Get an outline from another student that did well in the course.
Step 2 - Add your notes to that outline.
Step 3 - Take a day to edit the outline (cut it down, organize it better, try to absorb some nuances).
Step 4 - Work through a practice test. Outline your answers (rules, exceptions, policy). Take your outlined answers to your profs office hours and make them run through it with you.
Step 5 - Write out an exam, and continue to edit your outline until the day before the exam.

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Gettingstarted1928
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Re: Too late to start outlining?

Postby Gettingstarted1928 » Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:08 pm

biglaw$ wrote:No, it's not too late.

Step 1 - Get an outline from another student that did well in the course.
Step 2 - Add your notes to that outline.
Step 3 - Take a day to edit the outline (cut it down, organize it better, try to absorb some nuances).
Step 4 - Work through a practice test. Outline your answers (rules, exceptions, policy). Take your outlined answers to your profs office hours and make them run through it with you.
Step 5 - Write out an exam, and continue to edit your outline until the day before the exam.


I want to do this, but do professors really have the time to read the fact pattern of the questions and read through your answer? Seems like that would be asking a lot.

bartleby
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Re: Too late to start outlining?

Postby bartleby » Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:23 pm

johansantana21 wrote:How useful is Siegels when your exam doesn't have MC questions?


hate to help a fellow 1L out but siegel's has...like short exam questions...

i can't believe people will read GTM cover to cover and not do siegel's.

getting siegel's and buying unused (unhighlighted) books are probably two of the most helpful things from this most-likely-below-median student.

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biglaw$
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Re: Too late to start outlining?

Postby biglaw$ » Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:24 pm

Gettingstarted1928 wrote:
biglaw$ wrote:No, it's not too late.

Step 1 - Get an outline from another student that did well in the course.
Step 2 - Add your notes to that outline.
Step 3 - Take a day to edit the outline (cut it down, organize it better, try to absorb some nuances).
Step 4 - Work through a practice test. Outline your answers (rules, exceptions, policy). Take your outlined answers to your profs office hours and make them run through it with you.
Step 5 - Write out an exam, and continue to edit your outline until the day before the exam.


I want to do this, but do professors really have the time to read the fact pattern of the questions and read through your answer? Seems like that would be asking a lot.


I have found that most professors are quite accommodating if you are organized in what you are wanting to accomplish. Use the most recent exam. Keep the outlined answer short. Only bring up one or two questions if need be. You're just trying to get a general feeling for what the prof wants to see in an exam.

It's your grade in the end. Law school is way expensive, and professors get paid handsomely to teach you. Use them.

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biglaw$
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Re: Too late to start outlining?

Postby biglaw$ » Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:27 pm

bartleby wrote:buying unused (unhighlighted) books


Interesting
Last edited by biglaw$ on Mon Nov 14, 2011 11:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

bartleby
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Re: Too late to start outlining?

Postby bartleby » Mon Nov 14, 2011 7:34 pm

hm...i got my book off amazon for like half the retail price but it was a second generation hand me down.

everything was highlighted - with notes and crap on the side.

my civ pro book is awesome because the student before me seriously must've been a gunner - maybe even one of you - but my torts and k's book has some random highlighting, wrong interpretations, all that crap.

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NeighborGuy
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Re: Too late to start outlining?

Postby NeighborGuy » Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:34 pm

bartleby wrote:hm...i got my book off amazon for like half the retail price but it was a second generation hand me down.

everything was highlighted - with notes and crap on the side.

my civ pro book is awesome because the student before me seriously must've been a gunner - maybe even one of you - but my torts and k's book has some random highlighting, wrong interpretations, all that crap.


My used property book is highlighted in a completely haphazard manner, something like this. Like every other random word is highlighted for no discernible reason. And in dark, annoying colors, too. Whoever had this book last, I hate you.

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Cupidity
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Re: Too late to start outlining?

Postby Cupidity » Mon Nov 14, 2011 10:43 pm

It still might be too early

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Big Shrimpin
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Re: Too late to start outlining?

Postby Big Shrimpin » Tue Nov 15, 2011 10:48 am

Cupidity wrote:It still might be too early


+1. Not on my radar until after T-giving.

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Tanicius
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Re: Too late to start outlining?

Postby Tanicius » Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:30 pm

Big Shrimpin wrote:
Cupidity wrote:It still might be too early


+1. Not on my radar until after T-giving.



When do you have finals? Just curious.

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Big Shrimpin
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Re: Too late to start outlining?

Postby Big Shrimpin » Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:38 pm

Tanicius wrote:
Big Shrimpin wrote:
Cupidity wrote:It still might be too early


+1. Not on my radar until after T-giving.



When do you have finals? Just curious.


First week of December. Things like exam prep matter less when you're an employed 3L. :wink:




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