Memo Woes

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03121202698008
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Re: Memo Woes

Postby 03121202698008 » Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:52 am

1coolnerd wrote:Why is it against the honor code to have another student look over your work?


Because the point is to judge your writing, not another's editing.

1coolnerd
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Re: Memo Woes

Postby 1coolnerd » Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:09 pm

So, does that mean that you can't take your writing to a writing center/ or a writing tutor?

How are you supposed to improve if you don't get help from others? When I was in high school, I used to almost always to my work to a family member or a writing center tutor? That helped me tremendously.

I wonder if this policy is overkill.

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Re: Memo Woes

Postby 03121202698008 » Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:16 pm

1coolnerd wrote:So, does that mean that you can't take your writing to a writing center/ or a writing tutor?

How are you supposed to improve if you don't get help from others? When I was in high school, I used to almost always to my work to a family member or a writing center tutor? That helped me tremendously.

I wonder if this policy is overkill.


Your professor is your writing tutor. As is any assigned student mentor. You can do whatever you want with your work outside of grading...you just cannot turn it in for a grade. Your LRW grade is supposed to be a snap-shot of your current writing ability...not potential. You get edits back to learn from...you just don't get the benefit of learning from them prior to grading.

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ilovesf
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Re: Memo Woes

Postby ilovesf » Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:26 pm

1coolnerd wrote:So, does that mean that you can't take your writing to a writing center/ or a writing tutor?

How are you supposed to improve if you don't get help from others? When I was in high school, I used to almost always to my work to a family member or a writing center tutor? That helped me tremendously.

I wonder if this policy is overkill.

Are you serious? Ask to set up a meeting with your legal writing professor to go over his/her suggested changes to your drafts. Go over your draft many times yourself. If you have a TA, try to set up a meeting with your TA for help. Aside from this, you can't get any help from anyone.

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Re: Memo Woes

Postby 1coolnerd » Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:54 pm

ilovesf wrote:
1coolnerd wrote:So, does that mean that you can't take your writing to a writing center/ or a writing tutor?

How are you supposed to improve if you don't get help from others? When I was in high school, I used to almost always to my work to a family member or a writing center tutor? That helped me tremendously.

I wonder if this policy is overkill.

Are you serious? Ask to set up a meeting with your legal writing professor to go over his/her suggested changes to your drafts. Go over your draft many times yourself. If you have a TA, try to set up a meeting with your TA for help. Aside from this, you can't get any help from anyone.


I'm not in law school yet. I'm an 0L.

I ask because, in UG, many professors wouldn't read full drafts of essays. They would read the introductory paragraph and conclusion and request that we take it to the writing lab.

Are law professors/ TAs even willing to read full drafts? Also, with a class size of around 50 to 100 in 1L classes, do they have the time/ energy to do this?

I'm just trying to understand.

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ilovesf
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Re: Memo Woes

Postby ilovesf » Wed Nov 30, 2011 12:57 pm

1coolnerd wrote:
I'm not in law school yet. I'm an 0L.

I ask because, in UG, many professors wouldn't read full drafts of essays. They would read the introductory paragraph and conclusion and request that we take it to the writing lab.

Are law professors/ TAs even willing to read full drafts? Also, with a class size of around 50 to 100 in 1L classes, do they have the time/ energy to do this?

I'm just trying to understand.

Oh I didn't realize you aren't in law school yet, my bad. I don't know how every school does this but I imagine it's similar to my school. My section is ~85 people and my writing section is 12 people. We always hand in 1 full draft that both our TA and our professor read. Then we are allowed to send revised sections to them, sometimes more if you're lucky. Then we hand in our final draft. Our TAs and professor HAVE to read our full draft. Because we aren't allowed to go to a writing center like in undergrad, the only way to really improve is through their comments (though the helpfulness of a TA is totally debatable).

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Re: Memo Woes

Postby 1coolnerd » Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:34 pm

ilovesf wrote:
1coolnerd wrote:
I'm not in law school yet. I'm an 0L.

I ask because, in UG, many professors wouldn't read full drafts of essays. They would read the introductory paragraph and conclusion and request that we take it to the writing lab.

Are law professors/ TAs even willing to read full drafts? Also, with a class size of around 50 to 100 in 1L classes, do they have the time/ energy to do this?

I'm just trying to understand.

Oh I didn't realize you aren't in law school yet, my bad. I don't know how every school does this but I imagine it's similar to my school. My section is ~85 people and my writing section is 12 people. We always hand in 1 full draft that both our TA and our professor read. Then we are allowed to send revised sections to them, sometimes more if you're lucky. Then we hand in our final draft. Our TAs and professor HAVE to read our full draft. Because we aren't allowed to go to a writing center like in undergrad, the only way to really improve is through their comments (though the helpfulness of a TA is totally debatable).


That kinda bites. I used the writing lab a lot in UG, and it helped tremendously.

So, do you find professor comments to be helpful? Do you know of any writing books that 0Ls should read to improve?

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ilovesf
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Re: Memo Woes

Postby ilovesf » Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:41 pm

1coolnerd wrote:
ilovesf wrote:
1coolnerd wrote:
I'm not in law school yet. I'm an 0L.

I ask because, in UG, many professors wouldn't read full drafts of essays. They would read the introductory paragraph and conclusion and request that we take it to the writing lab.

Are law professors/ TAs even willing to read full drafts? Also, with a class size of around 50 to 100 in 1L classes, do they have the time/ energy to do this?

I'm just trying to understand.

Oh I didn't realize you aren't in law school yet, my bad. I don't know how every school does this but I imagine it's similar to my school. My section is ~85 people and my writing section is 12 people. We always hand in 1 full draft that both our TA and our professor read. Then we are allowed to send revised sections to them, sometimes more if you're lucky. Then we hand in our final draft. Our TAs and professor HAVE to read our full draft. Because we aren't allowed to go to a writing center like in undergrad, the only way to really improve is through their comments (though the helpfulness of a TA is totally debatable).


That kinda bites. I used the writing lab a lot in UG, and it helped tremendously.

So, do you find professor comments to be helpful? Do you know of any writing books that 0Ls should read to improve?


I actually like this, because instead of depending on other people's comments, you really have to evaluate the work for yourself. Good writers are rewarded by this, and it forces you to work harder to improve your writing. I also think it levels the playing field a bit, because there isn't one person who has had their paper edited by 10 people or something. I found my professor's comments to be helpful and in general, I really liked legal writing. In legal writing though, you are writing exactly how your professor wants you to write, and you have to change your style to fit your professor's specifications. My professor hates certain expressions, such as thus, therefore, 'the case at bar,' etc. I know some other legal writing sections use these expressions frequently. I don't know any 0L books for writing, and I imagine it could be a waste of time since each professor has a distinct style of writing that you should follow.

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Re: Memo Woes

Postby 03121202698008 » Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:42 pm

1coolnerd wrote:
ilovesf wrote:
1coolnerd wrote:
I'm not in law school yet. I'm an 0L.

I ask because, in UG, many professors wouldn't read full drafts of essays. They would read the introductory paragraph and conclusion and request that we take it to the writing lab.

Are law professors/ TAs even willing to read full drafts? Also, with a class size of around 50 to 100 in 1L classes, do they have the time/ energy to do this?

I'm just trying to understand.

Oh I didn't realize you aren't in law school yet, my bad. I don't know how every school does this but I imagine it's similar to my school. My section is ~85 people and my writing section is 12 people. We always hand in 1 full draft that both our TA and our professor read. Then we are allowed to send revised sections to them, sometimes more if you're lucky. Then we hand in our final draft. Our TAs and professor HAVE to read our full draft. Because we aren't allowed to go to a writing center like in undergrad, the only way to really improve is through their comments (though the helpfulness of a TA is totally debatable).


That kinda bites. I used the writing lab a lot in UG, and it helped tremendously.

So, do you find professor comments to be helpful? Do you know of any writing books that 0Ls should read to improve?


It's precisely because people rely on writing centers that they do it this way. They aren't there to teach you to write. They are there to teach you to write in a legal context. Most of what you'll learn has to do with research, format, and citations. They will give you comments and grade on style but this is not an UG writing course. LRW serves two purposes: it teaches you legal writing and serves as an indicator to employers that you can write well. It doesn't exist to teach you the difference between passive/active voice, etc.

It sounds like you've had lazy professors in the past. They will definitely read the whole draft. Writing is a huge part of being a lawyer. You'll also find that LS professors don't hold your hand. They expect you to put in the research/work.

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lifestooquick
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Re: Memo Woes

Postby lifestooquick » Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:23 am

Final memo due Friday morning at 9:30. UGH! I'm so over this...Bluebooking party tomorrow and then I'm DONE with this shit.

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Extension_Cord
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Re: Memo Woes

Postby Extension_Cord » Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:27 am

lifestooquick wrote:Final memo due Friday morning at 9:30. UGH! I'm so over this...Bluebooking party tomorrow and then I'm DONE with this shit.


damn, we turned out final memos in 2 weeks ago.

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ph14
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Re: Memo Woes

Postby ph14 » Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:28 am

Extension_Cord wrote:
lifestooquick wrote:Final memo due Friday morning at 9:30. UGH! I'm so over this...Bluebooking party tomorrow and then I'm DONE with this shit.


damn, we turned out final memos in 2 weeks ago.


Turned ours in about a week ago. Nice to have that off the table.

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Re: Memo Woes

Postby Extension_Cord » Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:32 am

ph14 wrote:
Extension_Cord wrote:
lifestooquick wrote:Final memo due Friday morning at 9:30. UGH! I'm so over this...Bluebooking party tomorrow and then I'm DONE with this shit.


damn, we turned out final memos in 2 weeks ago.


Turned ours in about a week ago. Nice to have that off the table.


Easy street from here on out, eh?

Psych!

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jessuf
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Re: Memo Woes

Postby jessuf » Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:33 am

1coolnerd wrote:
ilovesf wrote:
1coolnerd wrote:So, does that mean that you can't take your writing to a writing center/ or a writing tutor?

How are you supposed to improve if you don't get help from others? When I was in high school, I used to almost always to my work to a family member or a writing center tutor? That helped me tremendously.

I wonder if this policy is overkill.

Are you serious? Ask to set up a meeting with your legal writing professor to go over his/her suggested changes to your drafts. Go over your draft many times yourself. If you have a TA, try to set up a meeting with your TA for help. Aside from this, you can't get any help from anyone.


I'm not in law school yet. I'm an 0L.

I ask because, in UG, many professors wouldn't read full drafts of essays. They would read the introductory paragraph and conclusion and request that we take it to the writing lab.

Are law professors/ TAs even willing to read full drafts? Also, with a class size of around 50 to 100 in 1L classes, do they have the time/ energy to do this?

I'm just trying to understand.


My professor and TAs would not read drafts. However, I was permitted to ask them generic questions like "Is this case good to discuss?"

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TheFutureLawyer
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Re: Memo Woes

Postby TheFutureLawyer » Thu Dec 01, 2011 2:26 am

Man, I'm realizing how bad my memo actually is (though I still really want to see what the median memo looks like). Out of curiosity, how many of you actually made sure to use all your signals properly, along with proper footnotes? For some reason, I never did thought about using footnotes before, and then recently the Prof was like, "yeah, you should use footnotes." Was looking at the footnotes part of BB, and then looked at the signals part. fml.

When this shit is done in 20 hrs, I'm gonna have a nice drink or two.

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Re: Memo Woes

Postby 03121202698008 » Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:45 am

TheFutureLawyer wrote:Man, I'm realizing how bad my memo actually is (though I still really want to see what the median memo looks like). Out of curiosity, how many of you actually made sure to use all your signals properly, along with proper footnotes? For some reason, I never did thought about using footnotes before, and then recently the Prof was like, "yeah, you should use footnotes." Was looking at the footnotes part of BB, and then looked at the signals part. fml.

When this shit is done in 20 hrs, I'm gonna have a nice drink or two.


Footnotes in a brief? Or citations? It is rare to see footnotes used in a brief. Several prominent judges have even spoken out against the practice. Their inclusion in the BB is intended for scholarly works which is clear from the blue page examples.

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ilovesf
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Re: Memo Woes

Postby ilovesf » Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:16 pm

blowhard wrote:
TheFutureLawyer wrote:Man, I'm realizing how bad my memo actually is (though I still really want to see what the median memo looks like). Out of curiosity, how many of you actually made sure to use all your signals properly, along with proper footnotes? For some reason, I never did thought about using footnotes before, and then recently the Prof was like, "yeah, you should use footnotes." Was looking at the footnotes part of BB, and then looked at the signals part. fml.

When this shit is done in 20 hrs, I'm gonna have a nice drink or two.


Footnotes in a brief? Or citations? It is rare to see footnotes used in a brief. Several prominent judges have even spoken out against the practice. Their inclusion in the BB is intended for scholarly works which is clear from the blue page examples.

I've never used or heard anyone speak about using footnotes in a lwr brief.

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TheFutureLawyer
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Re: Memo Woes

Postby TheFutureLawyer » Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:51 pm

TheFutureLawyer wrote:When this shit is done in 20 hrs, I'm gonna have a nice drink or two.


--ImageRemoved--

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lifestooquick
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Re: Memo Woes

Postby lifestooquick » Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:01 pm

Fuck this memo. I can't wait to turn it in and not look at it again.

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MrPapagiorgio
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Re: Memo Woes

Postby MrPapagiorgio » Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:08 pm

Most work for a 2 credit class since bio lab. But fucking done.

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Re: Memo Woes

Postby keg411 » Fri Dec 02, 2011 9:49 am

ilovesf wrote:
blowhard wrote:
TheFutureLawyer wrote:Man, I'm realizing how bad my memo actually is (though I still really want to see what the median memo looks like). Out of curiosity, how many of you actually made sure to use all your signals properly, along with proper footnotes? For some reason, I never did thought about using footnotes before, and then recently the Prof was like, "yeah, you should use footnotes." Was looking at the footnotes part of BB, and then looked at the signals part. fml.

When this shit is done in 20 hrs, I'm gonna have a nice drink or two.


Footnotes in a brief? Or citations? It is rare to see footnotes used in a brief. Several prominent judges have even spoken out against the practice. Their inclusion in the BB is intended for scholarly works which is clear from the blue page examples.

I've never used or heard anyone speak about using footnotes in a lwr brief.


I used two last year in my LRW brief, but only because it made more sense to put them there (both had to do with procedural postures of cases I cited that needed to be included, but didn't work in the main text). My prof pretty much said, if you need to use a couple it was okay, but she didn't want to see a lot of them.

Also, there were a whole bunch in the some of the state appellate briefs I read all of last summer. So I don't think it's always uncalled for, but only use them if it only makes sense to put the information in a FN rather than the body of the brief.

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queenlizzie13
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Re: Memo Woes

Postby queenlizzie13 » Fri Dec 02, 2011 10:59 am

Turned in memo yesterday. Felt good to be finally done with it. As for footnotes I don't think you're supposed to have them. Next semester with the briefs. Footnotes are generally more for Law Review articles though.

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kalvano
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Re: Memo Woes

Postby kalvano » Fri Dec 02, 2011 11:01 am

I would have been tarred and feathered and then drawn and quartered if I had used footnotes in my brief.

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Re: Memo Woes

Postby 03121202698008 » Fri Dec 02, 2011 11:17 am

kalvano wrote:I would have been tarred and feathered and then drawn and quartered if I had used footnotes in my brief.


This, people do it in practice but it's not preferred. They generally do it because they are lazy or feel the need to include information that's not relevant. About half of those I've seen are merely digs at the other side.

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lifestooquick
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Re: Memo Woes

Postby lifestooquick » Fri Dec 02, 2011 3:26 pm

Memo turned in this morning. Nap time now.




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