1L Summer Employment

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theavrock
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Re: 1L Summer Employment

Postby theavrock » Fri Nov 04, 2011 10:53 am

Any utility in applying for 1L positions with federal judges in geographic locales one wants to be in? Or does it not matter that much?

Unsure whether or not it would be useful enough to justify paying rent at two places and the other costs associated with or if I should just focus on school's market.

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Helmholtz
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Re: 1L Summer Employment

Postby Helmholtz » Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:02 am

theavrock wrote:Any utility in applying for 1L positions with federal judges in geographic locales one wants to be in? Or does it not matter that much?

Unsure whether or not it would be useful enough to justify paying rent at two places and the other costs associated with or if I should just focus on school's market.


I don't think it matters enough to justify paying two rents. Go with what's cheapest. It can be one other thing to show commitment to a specific area of the country, but it's not going to come close to winning or losing that battle. If you have ties to California, want to go there after graduation, and go to NYU, doing an internship in NYC is not going to determine whether or not your OCI interviewers will view you as having strong enough ties or not. If it's the same situation, except you have no ties to Cali, then doing an internship in Cali is not going to convince your OCI that you have ties. If all was equal—cost, convenience, etc—and you had a choice between a judge in your preferred market versus a judge in your school's market, then choose the former. But it doesn't make sense to spend that much extra money.

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unc0mm0n1
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Re: 1L Summer Employment

Postby unc0mm0n1 » Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:23 am

Helmholtz wrote:
theavrock wrote:Any utility in applying for 1L positions with federal judges in geographic locales one wants to be in? Or does it not matter that much?

Unsure whether or not it would be useful enough to justify paying rent at two places and the other costs associated with or if I should just focus on school's market.


I don't think it matters enough to justify paying two rents. Go with what's cheapest. It can be one other thing to show commitment to a specific area of the country, but it's not going to come close to winning or losing that battle. If you have ties to California, want to go there after graduation, and go to NYU, doing an internship in NYC is not going to determine whether or not your OCI interviewers will view you as having strong enough ties or not. If it's the same situation, except you have no ties to Cali, then doing an internship in Cali is not going to convince your OCI that you have ties. If all was equal—cost, convenience, etc—and you had a choice between a judge in your preferred market versus a judge in your school's market, then choose the former. But it doesn't make sense to spend that much extra money.


Is there a big difference between working for a federal agency (in the legal department) v. Working for a Judge. I'm leaning toward federal agency because some of them pay and I get a veteran preference in hiring but is it looked at the same as working with a Judge?

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Helmholtz
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Re: 1L Summer Employment

Postby Helmholtz » Fri Nov 04, 2011 11:38 am

unc0mm0n1 wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:
theavrock wrote:Any utility in applying for 1L positions with federal judges in geographic locales one wants to be in? Or does it not matter that much?

Unsure whether or not it would be useful enough to justify paying rent at two places and the other costs associated with or if I should just focus on school's market.


I don't think it matters enough to justify paying two rents. Go with what's cheapest. It can be one other thing to show commitment to a specific area of the country, but it's not going to come close to winning or losing that battle. If you have ties to California, want to go there after graduation, and go to NYU, doing an internship in NYC is not going to determine whether or not your OCI interviewers will view you as having strong enough ties or not. If it's the same situation, except you have no ties to Cali, then doing an internship in Cali is not going to convince your OCI that you have ties. If all was equal—cost, convenience, etc—and you had a choice between a judge in your preferred market versus a judge in your school's market, then choose the former. But it doesn't make sense to spend that much extra money.


Is there a big difference between working for a federal agency (in the legal department) v. Working for a Judge. I'm leaning toward federal agency because some of them pay and I get a veteran preference in hiring but is it looked at the same as working with a Judge?


There is probably a big difference in the experience you will have. Difference in how the two will impact your OCI? I really think there will be no difference. If you can get a 1L summer legal internship that pays, by all means, go for it.

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: 1L Summer Employment

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Fri Nov 04, 2011 12:38 pm

Helmholtz wrote:
theavrock wrote:Any utility in applying for 1L positions with federal judges in geographic locales one wants to be in? Or does it not matter that much?

Unsure whether or not it would be useful enough to justify paying rent at two places and the other costs associated with or if I should just focus on school's market.


I don't think it matters enough to justify paying two rents. Go with what's cheapest. It can be one other thing to show commitment to a specific area of the country, but it's not going to come close to winning or losing that battle. If you have ties to California, want to go there after graduation, and go to NYU, doing an internship in NYC is not going to determine whether or not your OCI interviewers will view you as having strong enough ties or not. If it's the same situation, except you have no ties to Cali, then doing an internship in Cali is not going to convince your OCI that you have ties. If all was equal—cost, convenience, etc—and you had a choice between a judge in your preferred market versus a judge in your school's market, then choose the former. But it doesn't make sense to spend that much extra money.


Can depend on the judge you work for though. I interned for a judged whose goal was to make connections in the city for his interns while they were there. The judge wanted to have interns who wanted to come back to that city and his goal was to help get them jobs there.

That said, most judges are probably not like that, but I still think it can help being in the city where you want to be. And it's possible that you will encounter interviewers who have been before that judge during OCI.

All things considered, it's probably a marginal boost, but that could make it worth the extra money.

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Helmholtz
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Re: 1L Summer Employment

Postby Helmholtz » Fri Nov 04, 2011 1:36 pm

Richie Tenenbaum wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:
theavrock wrote:Any utility in applying for 1L positions with federal judges in geographic locales one wants to be in? Or does it not matter that much?

Unsure whether or not it would be useful enough to justify paying rent at two places and the other costs associated with or if I should just focus on school's market.


I don't think it matters enough to justify paying two rents. Go with what's cheapest. It can be one other thing to show commitment to a specific area of the country, but it's not going to come close to winning or losing that battle. If you have ties to California, want to go there after graduation, and go to NYU, doing an internship in NYC is not going to determine whether or not your OCI interviewers will view you as having strong enough ties or not. If it's the same situation, except you have no ties to Cali, then doing an internship in Cali is not going to convince your OCI that you have ties. If all was equal—cost, convenience, etc—and you had a choice between a judge in your preferred market versus a judge in your school's market, then choose the former. But it doesn't make sense to spend that much extra money.


Can depend on the judge you work for though. I interned for a judged whose goal was to make connections in the city for his interns while they were there. The judge wanted to have interns who wanted to come back to that city and his goal was to help get them jobs there.

That said, most judges are probably not like that, but I still think it can help being in the city where you want to be. And it's possible that you will encounter interviewers who have been before that judge during OCI.

All things considered, it's probably a marginal boost, but that could make it worth the extra money.


On second thought, it probably does make more of a difference than my first comment implied (although I'm not sure if in the end that changes my ultimate answer or not). My judge didn't really go out of her way to make connections, but being in my preferred market helped for two big reasons: (1) There were three people who interviewed me on my callbacks who spend their 1L summer at the same courthouse that I did, and (2) during the summer, the head of the pro bono department of my #1 firm was heavily involved in a case that my judge was overseeing. She was one of the most impressive litigators I think I've seen in a courthouse. During the screening interview with my top firm, I mentioned (during my "tell me about your summer" question) that I had the chance to see really terrific lawyers in action during the summer—including the person from that firm. I then described all the ways in which that person exemplified many of the wonderful qualities that are so aften attributed to lawyers at this firm. And that I had talked with so many people about the firm, and while all of them raved about their coworkers, it was nothing like actually seeing one of those lawyers in a courthouse, and witnessing firsthand the poise and professionalism previously only described secondhand. That same lawyer came up two more times during my callbacks. I'm not sure how much of a difference it made during the callbacks, but I think that it was the thing that sealed my passage over the screening stage. And I ended up with an offer. So yeah, in hindsight, it would have been well-worth it for me to make a financial sacrifice to be in that courthouse this summer—but a big part of it might just have been good fortune.

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sundance95
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Re: 1L Summer Employment

Postby sundance95 » Fri Nov 04, 2011 1:50 pm

Jessuf wrote:Anyone have thoughts on: U.S. Attorney's Office internship in my hometown vs. federal district judge internship?

If you're interested in returning to your home market, the fact that you're more likely to make connections at the USAO could be a factor.

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jessuf
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Re: 1L Summer Employment

Postby jessuf » Fri Nov 04, 2011 7:01 pm

sundance95 wrote:
Jessuf wrote:Anyone have thoughts on: U.S. Attorney's Office internship in my hometown vs. federal district judge internship?

If you're interested in returning to your home market, the fact that you're more likely to make connections at the USAO could be a factor.


I do like the idea of connections, but I am already in my "home" market.

I've also decided to aim for COA, but after reviewing my cover letter, I've realized how unimpressive my life is. Yay!

Apple Tree
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Re: 1L Summer Employment

Postby Apple Tree » Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:07 pm

How do people find a list of state level judges? It seems like Symplicity only has federal judges' information, unless I'm not looking at the right place.

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ilovesf
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Re: 1L Summer Employment

Postby ilovesf » Fri Nov 04, 2011 8:56 pm

Apple Tree wrote:How do people find a list of state level judges? It seems like Symplicity only has federal judges' information, unless I'm not looking at the right place.

CoA website of your district, for example mine is:
http://www.courts.ca.gov/2344.htm

Apple Tree
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Re: 1L Summer Employment

Postby Apple Tree » Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:21 am

ilovesf wrote:
Apple Tree wrote:How do people find a list of state level judges? It seems like Symplicity only has federal judges' information, unless I'm not looking at the right place.

CoA website of your district, for example mine is:
http://www.courts.ca.gov/2344.htm



Thanks a lot! I looked up the states I was interested in, but I didn't see a specific address for every judge (like a room number). Can I just put each judges's name on the individual envelope with the standard CoA address?

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jessuf
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Re: 1L Summer Employment

Postby jessuf » Sat Nov 05, 2011 9:22 am

Apple Tree wrote:
ilovesf wrote:
Apple Tree wrote:How do people find a list of state level judges? It seems like Symplicity only has federal judges' information, unless I'm not looking at the right place.

CoA website of your district, for example mine is:
http://www.courts.ca.gov/2344.htm



Thanks a lot! I looked up the states I was interested in, but I didn't see a specific address for every judge (like a room number). Can I just put each judges's name on the individual envelope with the standard CoA address?


I'd be a little careful about this. For my circuit, there are judges in multiple cities in Florida and Georgia even though the main courthouse is in Atlanta. I would call and ask just to be safe.

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BEAST_mode
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Re: 1L Summer Employment

Postby BEAST_mode » Sun Nov 06, 2011 12:22 am

Is there anything special about a U.S. attorney's office gig?

Apple Tree
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Re: 1L Summer Employment

Postby Apple Tree » Sun Nov 06, 2011 11:34 am

Jessuf wrote:
Apple Tree wrote:
ilovesf wrote:
Apple Tree wrote:How do people find a list of state level judges? It seems like Symplicity only has federal judges' information, unless I'm not looking at the right place.

CoA website of your district, for example mine is:
http://www.courts.ca.gov/2344.htm



Thanks a lot! I looked up the states I was interested in, but I didn't see a specific address for every judge (like a room number). Can I just put each judges's name on the individual envelope with the standard CoA address?


I'd be a little careful about this. For my circuit, there are judges in multiple cities in Florida and Georgia even though the main courthouse is in Atlanta. I would call and ask just to be safe.


Wow I wouldn't have known that. Thanks a lot!!

Apple Tree
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Re: 1L Summer Employment

Postby Apple Tree » Mon Nov 07, 2011 1:07 am

Is it even worth the time and energy to apply to firms outside my home market as a 1L? I was going to apply to some firms in the geographic area that I would like to move to after graduation (not the same as my home market), but it seems like it will be a waste of time and energy to research the firms and tailor my cover letter to each one as my actual chance of landing an internship is slim to none. On the other hand, it just doesn't seem right to me if I don't even try at all.

So I guess I have two questions: 1. Should I even apply to firms outside my home market? 2. If I do, should I spend time to tailor each cover letter? Any advice is appreciated!

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Gettingstarted1928
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Re: 1L Summer Employment

Postby Gettingstarted1928 » Tue Nov 08, 2011 4:28 pm

What is everyone doing about references for their resume? The professors don't know us that well and we will be asking for references BEFORE grades come out when they know little about our abilities. :?

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DoubleChecks
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Re: 1L Summer Employment

Postby DoubleChecks » Tue Nov 08, 2011 5:09 pm

Gettingstarted1928 wrote:What is everyone doing about references for their resume? The professors don't know us that well and we will be asking for references BEFORE grades come out when they know little about our abilities. :?


I wouldn't attach references onto resumes. Keep it as a separate document to be provided if necessary (i.e. if they ask for them). None of mine were law school professors. If the professor would not know you apart from any other student, use someone else (past WE employer, professor you were close with in ugrad if a recent graduate, etc.). That's perfectly fine. Personally, I don't think references are asked for as much as I thought they would be.

kaiser
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Re: 1L Summer Employment

Postby kaiser » Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:39 pm

For those applying for judicial internships, use judgepedia.org. It breaks down each state court system for you, tells you every federal judge in each district, etc. and even includes bio information so you can perhaps tailor your application a bit.

03121202698008
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Re: 1L Summer Employment

Postby 03121202698008 » Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:43 pm

kaiser wrote:For those applying for judicial internships, use judgepedia.org. It breaks down each state court system for you, tells you every federal judge in each district, etc. and even includes bio information so you can perhaps tailor your application a bit.


Check with your school as well. Many maintain mail merge databases. Michigan's included comments of students who interned/clerked including what the judge looks for, working conditions, etc.

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ilovesf
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Re: 1L Summer Employment

Postby ilovesf » Tue Nov 08, 2011 6:56 pm

blowhard wrote:
kaiser wrote:For those applying for judicial internships, use judgepedia.org. It breaks down each state court system for you, tells you every federal judge in each district, etc. and even includes bio information so you can perhaps tailor your application a bit.


Check with your school as well. Many maintain mail merge databases. Michigan's included comments of students who interned/clerked including what the judge looks for, working conditions, etc.

yeah, mine gives out a paper with all of the judges/justices and their official addresses. there is also a review book that has student feedback about their externships with them as well so you can get an idea about whether they are a good person to work under.

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Gettingstarted1928
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Re: 1L Summer Employment

Postby Gettingstarted1928 » Tue Nov 08, 2011 7:29 pm

DoubleChecks wrote:
Gettingstarted1928 wrote:What is everyone doing about references for their resume? The professors don't know us that well and we will be asking for references BEFORE grades come out when they know little about our abilities. :?


I wouldn't attach references onto resumes. Keep it as a separate document to be provided if necessary (i.e. if they ask for them). None of mine were law school professors. If the professor would not know you apart from any other student, use someone else (past WE employer, professor you were close with in ugrad if a recent graduate, etc.). That's perfectly fine. Personally, I don't think references are asked for as much as I thought they would be.



Interesting. From everything I've seen and heard, we should have a page of 3-5 references. Can anyone else weigh in.

03121202698008
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Re: 1L Summer Employment

Postby 03121202698008 » Tue Nov 08, 2011 7:34 pm

Gettingstarted1928 wrote:
DoubleChecks wrote:
Gettingstarted1928 wrote:What is everyone doing about references for their resume? The professors don't know us that well and we will be asking for references BEFORE grades come out when they know little about our abilities. :?


I wouldn't attach references onto resumes. Keep it as a separate document to be provided if necessary (i.e. if they ask for them). None of mine were law school professors. If the professor would not know you apart from any other student, use someone else (past WE employer, professor you were close with in ugrad if a recent graduate, etc.). That's perfectly fine. Personally, I don't think references are asked for as much as I thought they would be.



Interesting. From everything I've seen and heard, we should have a page of 3-5 references. Can anyone else weigh in.


Generally, your legal practice professor provides a reference. He didn't write a letter, just gave me his name and address. However, no one ever asked for it 1L.

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DoubleChecks
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Re: 1L Summer Employment

Postby DoubleChecks » Tue Nov 08, 2011 10:26 pm

Gettingstarted1928 wrote:
DoubleChecks wrote:
Gettingstarted1928 wrote:What is everyone doing about references for their resume? The professors don't know us that well and we will be asking for references BEFORE grades come out when they know little about our abilities. :?


I wouldn't attach references onto resumes. Keep it as a separate document to be provided if necessary (i.e. if they ask for them). None of mine were law school professors. If the professor would not know you apart from any other student, use someone else (past WE employer, professor you were close with in ugrad if a recent graduate, etc.). That's perfectly fine. Personally, I don't think references are asked for as much as I thought they would be.



Interesting. From everything I've seen and heard, we should have a page of 3-5 references. Can anyone else weigh in.


I don't know if my comment said you should not have a page of 3-5 references lol. All I said was, they needn't all be law profs, and you needn't provide it with your resume (unless the application asks for it). For example, mass mailing firms for a 1L summer job would not require you to attach a reference page unless they also explicitly asked for it.

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jessuf
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Re: 1L Summer Employment

Postby jessuf » Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:01 pm

Also, the judicial yellowbook has everyone's address, phone number, fax number, e-mail address, clerk's phone numbers and e-mails, etc. etc. I used it to get some addresses today, and it told me what local organizations the judges were involved in, where they worked previously, etc. Pretty helpful in tailoring my cover letter AND for potentially stalking them down.

shock259
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Re: 1L Summer Employment

Postby shock259 » Wed Nov 09, 2011 8:16 pm

References? I haven't heard that anywhere. I thought the norm was resume and cover letter.

I talked with my career adviser a few days ago. She helped with my resume and cover letter. Making some final touches and then I'll start mail merging the shit out of these judicial letters. I should probably get my own printer eh? I'll need to figure out how to do the envelope printing thing. I'm going to be applying to all federal courts in my state (district, COA), all state appellate courts (COA, SC), and then a selection of state trial courts (probably ~80). Total should be about 150 judges. My main goal is to get a JAG summer internship, but that app date is Feb 1st, or waaaaay later. My career adviser told me that lower level judges would probably be willing to work me on the late app date for JAG since it lines up better with my career goals, and basically let me drop their judicial gig if I got the JAG one (she said as long as I was upfront and honest about my intentions, they probably wouldn't hold it against me during interviews/hiring, but I think this seems a bit optimistic).

Scary shit. But I guess we'll see.




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