Forced to retake 1L classes

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1L1284
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Forced to retake 1L classes

Postby 1L1284 » Sun Oct 02, 2011 9:40 pm

Friend at a T50 school is being forced to retake 3 1L classes. He got C, C, and C-. School requires that your 1L cumulative GPA is over a 2.7 and you must retake courses that you score a C or lower in if your overall GPA falls below that 2.7.

Now next summer he cannot work at all, he has to finish classes during summer school or he wont be able to get the required number of units to graduate. I know he wants to drop out which almost seems logical now because 1) he won't have 2L summer job experience and 2) transcript will be a nightmare.

Thoughts?

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NYC Law
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Re: Forced to retake 1L classes

Postby NYC Law » Sun Oct 02, 2011 9:42 pm

He needs to retake or not go (literally, get it?)




But seriously, he should probably just drop out.

kaiser
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Re: Forced to retake 1L classes

Postby kaiser » Sun Oct 02, 2011 9:53 pm

Not having work next summer seems like an oddly appropriate and representative prelude of what will come next for this kid. Sorry, but the system only gives you one chance to play the game and dropping out would probably be wise.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Forced to retake 1L classes

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Sun Oct 02, 2011 9:54 pm

Do you know what he wants to do with his law degree?

If he wants to be hired by someone, and he doesn't have connections, he will have a rough time (re: drop out).

If he wants to start his own business, or help someone else do so (as an in-house person), then it may be worth it to stay.

jarofsoup
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Re: Forced to retake 1L classes

Postby jarofsoup » Sun Oct 02, 2011 10:03 pm

Will the new grades replace the old grades on his transcript? B/C that could be a more acceptable deal.

1L1284
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Re: Forced to retake 1L classes

Postby 1L1284 » Sun Oct 02, 2011 10:06 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:Do you know what he wants to do with his law degree?

If he wants to be hired by someone, and he doesn't have connections, he will have a rough time (re: drop out).

If he wants to start his own business, or help someone else do so (as an in-house person), then it may be worth it to stay.


He knew he wouldn't be in biglaw and I anticipate he would have worked for a small to mid size firm. I believe the law school told him that once he retook the courses, the old grades (Cs) would not count into his cumulative GPA. However, there would still be some notation in the transcript showing that the classes had been retaken for a new grade. If his overall GPA can be improved, do you think the fact that he had to retake some courses will be a huge deterrence for small/mid size employers? Or will those types of firms only look at the cumulative GPA?

mrloblaw
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Re: Forced to retake 1L classes

Postby mrloblaw » Sun Oct 02, 2011 10:07 pm

jarofsoup wrote:Will the new grades replace the old grades on his transcript? B/C that could be a more acceptable deal.


Things far less suspicious than taking all your required 1L classes the summer following 1L will get you dinged. It still probably wouldn't be a good situation.

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SarahKerrigan
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Re: Forced to retake 1L classes

Postby SarahKerrigan » Sun Oct 02, 2011 10:14 pm

Well is there more to the story besides the fact that he didn't do well? As in, why did he do bad? I'm sure if there is some sort of unusual situation that he can explain retaking won't be THAT bad.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Forced to retake 1L classes

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Sun Oct 02, 2011 10:25 pm

1L1284 wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:Do you know what he wants to do with his law degree?

If he wants to be hired by someone, and he doesn't have connections, he will have a rough time (re: drop out).

If he wants to start his own business, or help someone else do so (as an in-house person), then it may be worth it to stay.


He knew he wouldn't be in biglaw and I anticipate he would have worked for a small to mid size firm. I believe the law school told him that once he retook the courses, the old grades (Cs) would not count into his cumulative GPA. However, there would still be some notation in the transcript showing that the classes had been retaken for a new grade. If his overall GPA can be improved, do you think the fact that he had to retake some courses will be a huge deterrence for small/mid size employers? Or will those types of firms only look at the cumulative GPA?


He will have a tough time with firms of all sizes and backgrounds (private, public interest, and government - yes, legal employers in all three of these areas behave like law firms). Without knowing more about him, his only hope may be a solo shop - and not by choice. Also, unlike some T3s and T4s, T50 schools aren't known for preparing people to set up their own shops (re: practical skills).

However, I have been exposed to some employers that only care about GPA and not about what someone actually took. If the new grades replaced the old grades, his position may not be as bad as it appears at first glance. It's not good by any means, but it's not as bad.

How much is he paying in tuition?

1L1284
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Re: Forced to retake 1L classes

Postby 1L1284 » Sun Oct 02, 2011 11:42 pm

Aberzombie1892 wrote:
1L1284 wrote:
Aberzombie1892 wrote:Do you know what he wants to do with his law degree?

If he wants to be hired by someone, and he doesn't have connections, he will have a rough time (re: drop out).

If he wants to start his own business, or help someone else do so (as an in-house person), then it may be worth it to stay.


He knew he wouldn't be in biglaw and I anticipate he would have worked for a small to mid size firm. I believe the law school told him that once he retook the courses, the old grades (Cs) would not count into his cumulative GPA. However, there would still be some notation in the transcript showing that the classes had been retaken for a new grade. If his overall GPA can be improved, do you think the fact that he had to retake some courses will be a huge deterrence for small/mid size employers? Or will those types of firms only look at the cumulative GPA?


He will have a tough time with firms of all sizes and backgrounds (private, public interest, and government - yes, legal employers in all three of these areas behave like law firms). Without knowing more about him, his only hope may be a solo shop - and not by choice. Also, unlike some T3s and T4s, T50 schools aren't known for preparing people to set up their own shops (re: practical skills).

However, I have been exposed to some employers that only care about GPA and not about what someone actually took. If the new grades replaced the old grades, his position may not be as bad as it appears at first glance. It's not good by any means, but it's not as bad.

How much is he paying in tuition?


Unfortunately sticker price (~$48K) and he is taking out student loans. He didn't have any unique circumstances for his grades either. He worked hard but he was just one of those people who didn't quite understand how to take a law school exam, even the 2nd semester.

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zanda
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Re: Forced to retake 1L classes

Postby zanda » Sun Oct 02, 2011 11:47 pm

So many people at my T6 are above median and unemployed. Dear goodness, the person needs to drop out.

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minnbills
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Re: Forced to retake 1L classes

Postby minnbills » Sun Oct 02, 2011 11:52 pm

If they're asking him to pay for these retake courses he should drop out. If he was getting a ton of $$$ from the school then it wouldn't be so bad. But with that much debt and a poor transcript he's setting himself up for a world of hurt.

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Kilpatrick
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Re: Forced to retake 1L classes

Postby Kilpatrick » Mon Oct 03, 2011 12:02 am

"Your friend" should drop out

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Extension_Cord
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Re: Forced to retake 1L classes

Postby Extension_Cord » Mon Oct 03, 2011 12:05 am

minnbills wrote:If they're asking him to pay for these retake courses he should drop out. If he was getting a ton of $$$ from the school then it wouldn't be so bad. But with that much debt and a poor transcript he's setting himself up for a world of hurt.


You also have to considered hes already paid for 3 semester (possibly more if he took summer classes). That debt is going to be there whether he drops out or not. Its not exactly easy getting a job in this economy with or without a JD. I think its probably best to suck it up and redo the classes because his option of dropping out is to be stuck with probably around 100k in law school debt (24K X 3 + Living Expenses for a year and a half = approx 100k) and a job that will pay 35k if hes lucky and he will probably be looking for a job for 2-3 months.

On the flip side, if he has become more comfortable with law school exams he will likely graduate with 200k in debt, but will hopefully make 50k or more a year starting. In the long run I think its better. I realize 35k income with 100k debt is better than 50k income with 200k debt starting, but I think in the long run the law school investment will pay out. Afterall, the average salary for attorneys ater 10 years is around 100k, while that of a person with a B.A. is probably around 50k.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Forced to retake 1L classes

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Mon Oct 03, 2011 8:22 am

So he owes $100K already and will owe another $100K if he stays?

Both potential outcomes are so bad that he should literally just flip a coin.

SN - while attorneys ten years in practice do well, the vast majority of law school graduates who even enter the legal sector leave the legal sector within a few years. Therefore, no decisions should be made off of what mid-career attorneys make.

SN - if he does stay (for whatever reason), he should take as many practical courses as humanly possible - clinics, trial ad., moot court (non-appellate), etc.

bleern031
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Re: Forced to retake 1L classes

Postby bleern031 » Mon Oct 03, 2011 8:27 am

Kilpatrick wrote:"Your friend" should drop out


TITCR lol.
honestly these forums are virtually anonymous. Your friend doesn't need to be so shy.

random5483
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Re: Forced to retake 1L classes

Postby random5483 » Mon Oct 03, 2011 12:20 pm

A forced retake of multiple 1L classes sounds horrible. He will be down units, money, and potential summer job experience. In his situation, he should seriously consider dropping out. I usually try to avoid the "drop out" suggestion. But unless he has a job secured upon graduation, he should cut his losses now.

dreakol
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Re: Forced to retake 1L classes

Postby dreakol » Mon Oct 03, 2011 1:14 pm

Kilpatrick wrote:"Your friend" should drop out



does anybody know how common this is?

it's standard advice on tls and other forums to dropout if 1L grades suck but, jesus, such a huge decision.

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BaiAilian2013
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Re: Forced to retake 1L classes

Postby BaiAilian2013 » Mon Oct 03, 2011 3:53 pm

What would he do if he dropped out? Prior career, skills, family to support, family willing to support him, age range, etc.?

shmoo597
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Re: Forced to retake 1L classes

Postby shmoo597 » Mon Oct 03, 2011 3:58 pm

This dude is fucked either way, totally and completely. Really quite sad. Never should have gone to law school. That debt will be crushing no matter what he does. We are the 99%.

luthersloan
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Re: Forced to retake 1L classes

Postby luthersloan » Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:18 am

Ugh. Enough with this 99% meme, he took his shot and he missed. It happens, it is unfortunate, but it is no one's problem but his.

shmoo597
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Re: Forced to retake 1L classes

Postby shmoo597 » Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:24 am

luthersloan wrote:Ugh. Enough with this 99% meme, he took his shot and he missed. It happens, it is unfortunate, but it is no one's problem but his.


Was being sarcastic. The guys a retard, I have no sympathy whatsoever.

Renzo
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Re: Forced to retake 1L classes

Postby Renzo » Tue Oct 04, 2011 2:53 am

Drop out ASAP. Don't fall into the sunk costs fallacy.

luthersloan
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Re: Forced to retake 1L classes

Postby luthersloan » Tue Oct 04, 2011 3:14 am

shmoo597 wrote:
luthersloan wrote:Ugh. Enough with this 99% meme, he took his shot and he missed. It happens, it is unfortunate, but it is no one's problem but his.


Was being sarcastic. The guys a retard, I have no sympathy whatsoever.


Oh, right on man.

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okinawa
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Re: Forced to retake 1L classes

Postby okinawa » Wed Oct 05, 2011 12:24 am

BaiAilian2013 wrote:What would he do if he dropped out? Prior career, skills, family to support, family willing to support him, age range, etc.?


the exact same thing he'd do in a year and a half but with 100k less in debt.




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