Spoke with a prof about an exam answer last week. Forum
- BarbellDreams
- Posts: 2251
- Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:10 pm
Spoke with a prof about an exam answer last week.
Grades have been in for a while so this post is more of an "I wonder what you think of this." sort of deal, but anyway:
My lowest grade by far came in ConLaw. The exam was 1 question, 3 hours, go. It laid out a situation that you as an attorney are trying to accomplish for your client and ended by saying "Craft an argument that analyzes the situation presented and demonstrate how the law your client is proposing should be deemed constitutional in light of case law." I randomly spoke with my professor about what the answer he wanted was a week ago just cause I remember sitting down and not knowing where to even start on this exam. His response was "The best grades realized that it was impossible to make the law constitutional and would have argued why any variations of the law would not have passed."
Umm...but the directions said to specifically make an argument FOR the law. I spent hours sitting there thinking "No way is this constitutional, but the directions say to argue for your client who wants to have the law pass so I guess I gotta make some sort of argument that it is constitutional. Turns out he wanted us to not pay attention to the directions. Fair or foul?
Again, grades are in already so this is more for entertainment.
My lowest grade by far came in ConLaw. The exam was 1 question, 3 hours, go. It laid out a situation that you as an attorney are trying to accomplish for your client and ended by saying "Craft an argument that analyzes the situation presented and demonstrate how the law your client is proposing should be deemed constitutional in light of case law." I randomly spoke with my professor about what the answer he wanted was a week ago just cause I remember sitting down and not knowing where to even start on this exam. His response was "The best grades realized that it was impossible to make the law constitutional and would have argued why any variations of the law would not have passed."
Umm...but the directions said to specifically make an argument FOR the law. I spent hours sitting there thinking "No way is this constitutional, but the directions say to argue for your client who wants to have the law pass so I guess I gotta make some sort of argument that it is constitutional. Turns out he wanted us to not pay attention to the directions. Fair or foul?
Again, grades are in already so this is more for entertainment.
- Blessedassurance
- Posts: 2091
- Joined: Mon Jun 27, 2011 3:42 pm
Re: Spoke with a prof about an exam answer last week.
Curious.Why did those with high grades ignore the directions?BarbellDreams wrote:Grades have been in for a while so this post is more of an "I wonder what you think of this." sort of deal, but anyway:
My lowest grade by far came in ConLaw. The exam was 1 question, 3 hours, go. It laid out a situation that you as an attorney are trying to accomplish for your client and ended by saying "Craft an argument that analyzes the situation presented and demonstrate how the law your client is proposing should be deemed constitutional in light of case law." I randomly spoke with my professor about what the answer he wanted was a week ago just cause I remember sitting down and not knowing where to even start on this exam. His response was "The best grades realized that it was impossible to make the law constitutional and would have argued why any variations of the law would not have passed."
Umm...but the directions said to specifically make an argument FOR the law. I spent hours sitting there thinking "No way is this constitutional, but the directions say to argue for your client who wants to have the law pass so I guess I gotta make some sort of argument that it is constitutional. Turns out he wanted us to not pay attention to the directions. Fair or foul?
Again, grades are in already so this is more for entertainment.
-
- Posts: 7921
- Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:01 pm
Re: Spoke with a prof about an exam answer last week.
Are you 100% sure the question was presented that way? If so, then that's just an asshole question and asshole model answer. I basically would have just gone CC strengths/weaknesses, etc. I can see where he was leading with the question, it was just a terrible way of presenting it. I pretty much ignored the prompts on my con law exam and made it into a massive strengths/weaknesses analysis.
I wouldn't say it's totally fair or completely foul, but it's certainly in that dreaded grey area.
I wouldn't say it's totally fair or completely foul, but it's certainly in that dreaded grey area.
- dailygrind
- Posts: 19907
- Joined: Wed Oct 22, 2008 11:08 am
Re: Spoke with a prof about an exam answer last week.
I guess there were two parts of the prompt: analyze, and construct an argument for your side. Apparently, construct an argument for your side was impossible, so all the points came from analyze. I see where the guys at, but it seems like a dick move.
- BarbellDreams
- Posts: 2251
- Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:10 pm
Re: Spoke with a prof about an exam answer last week.
The prompt literally said: "Your boss believes that a law that says X can be argued as constitutional. Construct an argument to the Supreme Court with relevant analysis and case law in support of this position."beach_terror wrote:Are you 100% sure the question was presented that way? If so, then that's just an asshole question and asshole model answer. I basically would have just gone CC strengths/weaknesses, etc. I can see where he was leading with the question, it was just a terrible way of presenting it. I pretty much ignored the prompts on my con law exam and made it into a massive strengths/weaknesses analysis.
I wouldn't say it's totally fair or completely foul, but it's certainly in that dreaded grey area.
I'm sure I missed other stuff on this exam, as I really only understood the substantive Con Law well and not all the philosophical stuff our professor expected. That said, although everyone was in the same boat, I think it wasn't the smartest way to construct a law school exam and seemed to be aimed more at showing how students are beneath the professor's way of thinking rather than actually teaching anyone anything.
Want to continue reading?
Register now to search topics and post comments!
Absolutely FREE!
Already a member? Login
-
- Posts: 1923
- Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:45 am
Re: Spoke with a prof about an exam answer last week.
One of the few times I've ever seen a legitimately unfair final exam question (or, more precisely, a fair question that seems to have been graded unfairly). The call was "analyze in support" - it was asking for a persuasive argument. In a persuasive argument, you do need to take on negative precedent, but it shouldn't be a "for/against" type of thing.BarbellDreams wrote:The prompt literally said: "Your boss believes that a law that says X can be argued as constitutional. Construct an argument to the Supreme Court with relevant analysis and case law in support of this position."beach_terror wrote:Are you 100% sure the question was presented that way? If so, then that's just an asshole question and asshole model answer. I basically would have just gone CC strengths/weaknesses, etc. I can see where he was leading with the question, it was just a terrible way of presenting it. I pretty much ignored the prompts on my con law exam and made it into a massive strengths/weaknesses analysis.
I wouldn't say it's totally fair or completely foul, but it's certainly in that dreaded grey area.
I'm sure I missed other stuff on this exam, as I really only understood the substantive Con Law well and not all the philosophical stuff our professor expected. That said, although everyone was in the same boat, I think it wasn't the smartest way to construct a law school exam and seemed to be aimed more at showing how students are beneath the professor's way of thinking rather than actually teaching anyone anything.
Ick.
- Cupidity
- Posts: 2214
- Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2009 10:21 pm
Re: Spoke with a prof about an exam answer last week.
High grades didn't ignore the directions. It said that it was a client. You always bring up counter-arguments and attempt to refute them. Bringing up only the positives is no way to show how the law is constitutional.
-
- Posts: 1923
- Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:45 am
Re: Spoke with a prof about an exam answer last week.
No, it said it was "an argument to the Supreme Court", not a memo to your client. An argument to the Supreme Court would not "argue why any variations of the law would not have passed."Cupidity wrote:High grades didn't ignore the directions. It said that it was a client. You always bring up counter-arguments and attempt to refute them. Bringing up only the positives is no way to show how the law is constitutional.
-
- Posts: 7921
- Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 10:01 pm
Re: Spoke with a prof about an exam answer last week.
No it doesn't. "Craft an argument that analyzes the situation presented and demonstrate how the law your client is proposing should be deemed constitutional in light of case law."ToTransferOrNot wrote:No, it said it was "an argument to the Supreme Court", not a memo to your client. An argument to the Supreme Court would not "argue why any variations of the law would not have passed."Cupidity wrote:High grades didn't ignore the directions. It said that it was a client. You always bring up counter-arguments and attempt to refute them. Bringing up only the positives is no way to show how the law is constitutional.
-
- Posts: 1923
- Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:45 am
Re: Spoke with a prof about an exam answer last week.
???beach_terror wrote:No it doesn't. "Craft an argument that analyzes the situation presented and demonstrate how the law your client is proposing should be deemed constitutional in light of case law."ToTransferOrNot wrote:No, it said it was "an argument to the Supreme Court", not a memo to your client. An argument to the Supreme Court would not "argue why any variations of the law would not have passed."Cupidity wrote:High grades didn't ignore the directions. It said that it was a client. You always bring up counter-arguments and attempt to refute them. Bringing up only the positives is no way to show how the law is constitutional.
"The prompt literally said: 'Your boss believes that a law that says X can be argued as constitutional. Construct an argument to the Supreme Court with relevant analysis and case law in support of this position.'"
ETA: The OP and his followup are inconsistent. The question was fair with respect to the quote in the OP, not fair with respect to the second quote. My bad, I kind of glossed over the OP.
-
- Posts: 680
- Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2009 4:07 pm
Re: Spoke with a prof about an exam answer last week.
Obviously if the question said test-takers were to write a brief to the Court in support of the statute, OP cannot be blamed for thinking he was to write something defending the statute. What was he supposed to do, write, "Dear Court, here's why we should lose?" Now, if it's a memo to the client, a good memo, if the statute were likely to be invalidated, would tell the client so. So it entirely depends on which one it was.
- BarbellDreams
- Posts: 2251
- Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:10 pm
Re: Spoke with a prof about an exam answer last week.
Let me solve the confusion. I may have made this more complicated than necessary. Your "client" was your boss, I just called him client. On the actual exam the directions were directed at the Supreme Court as stated. Sorry for the confusion.beach_terror wrote:No it doesn't. "Craft an argument that analyzes the situation presented and demonstrate how the law your client is proposing should be deemed constitutional in light of case law."ToTransferOrNot wrote:No, it said it was "an argument to the Supreme Court", not a memo to your client. An argument to the Supreme Court would not "argue why any variations of the law would not have passed."Cupidity wrote:High grades didn't ignore the directions. It said that it was a client. You always bring up counter-arguments and attempt to refute them. Bringing up only the positives is no way to show how the law is constitutional.
Honestly, everyone was in the same boat and since it is curved its hard to complain. I just think a professor saying that the A students should have realized that the law given was impossible to argue as constitutional and provide all points of why it cannot be constitutional as well as why variations of the law also could not be constitutional is kind of BS. Maybe I am just bitter cause that grade made me go from "Damn, are you transferring to Harvard?" to "Oh, yeah those are solid grades. I guess you might have a shot at
Last edited by BarbellDreams on Sat Jul 30, 2011 8:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
- Posts: 680
- Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2009 4:07 pm
Re: Spoke with a prof about an exam answer last week.
No, you have reason to be mad. Everyone was in the same boat, but only those students who had the balls to ignore the exam's directions (or who were stupid enough to misunderstand the directions and read the prompt as a regular, "what does the law say about this" prompt) did well. That's kind of unfortunate. I mean, I've had best argument for x prompts where I still consider counterarguments at great length and even acknowledge that some of them are really strong, but I always ultimately say why I'd say this was legal.
Register now!
Resources to assist law school applicants, students & graduates.
It's still FREE!
Already a member? Login
-
- Posts: 605
- Joined: Sat Jan 22, 2011 9:40 am
Re: Spoke with a prof about an exam answer last week.
TRAYDEUCE! I'm a big fan. Please give me a baked rolls update. What are you doing with your life?traydeuce wrote:No, you have reason to be mad. Everyone was in the same boat, but only those students who had the balls to ignore the exam's directions (or who were stupid enough to misunderstand the directions and read the prompt as a regular, "what does the law say about this" prompt) did well. That's kind of unfortunate. I mean, I've had best argument for x prompts where I still consider counterarguments at great length and even acknowledge that some of them are really strong, but I always ultimately say why I'd say this was legal.
-
- Posts: 680
- Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2009 4:07 pm
Re: Spoke with a prof about an exam answer last week.
I will send you a note; this is direction-follower's thread.Transferthrowaway wrote:TRAYDEUCE! I'm a big fan. Please give me a baked rolls update. What are you doing with your life?traydeuce wrote:No, you have reason to be mad. Everyone was in the same boat, but only those students who had the balls to ignore the exam's directions (or who were stupid enough to misunderstand the directions and read the prompt as a regular, "what does the law say about this" prompt) did well. That's kind of unfortunate. I mean, I've had best argument for x prompts where I still consider counterarguments at great length and even acknowledge that some of them are really strong, but I always ultimately say why I'd say this was legal.
- ObLaDiObLaDa
- Posts: 90
- Joined: Sat Mar 15, 2008 10:27 am
Re: Spoke with a prof about an exam answer last week.
I've had an exam like that before. I basically ended up saying "Here is something X can argue, this is why it won't really work", then "Here is something else X can argue, here is why it won't really work" and so on and so forth.
-
- Posts: 465
- Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 3:22 pm
Re: Spoke with a prof about an exam answer last week.
I'm with the OP on this one. I think she should file a complaint that the professor is sexually harassing her to get back at him.
Get unlimited access to all forums and topics
Register now!
I'm pretty sure I told you it's FREE...
Already a member? Login
-
- Posts: 973
- Joined: Thu Mar 10, 2011 6:06 pm
-
- Posts: 680
- Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2009 4:07 pm
Re: Spoke with a prof about an exam answer last week.
But if it's literally "write a brief to the Supreme Court," or, "what would you tell the Court on behalf of your client," you can't say, "here's my argument, and here's why it doesn't work." Now, "state the best argument your client could make, to your client," that's a little different.ObLaDiObLaDa wrote:I've had an exam like that before. I basically ended up saying "Here is something X can argue, this is why it won't really work", then "Here is something else X can argue, here is why it won't really work" and so on and so forth.
- BarbellDreams
- Posts: 2251
- Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:10 pm
Re: Spoke with a prof about an exam answer last week.
Maybe that would work...but I'm a guy, so I lose automatically.lawgod wrote:I'm with the OP on this one. I think she should file a complaint that the professor is sexually harassing her to get back at him.
Pitt.flexityflex86 wrote:which school
-
- Posts: 465
- Joined: Mon Dec 28, 2009 3:22 pm
Re: Spoke with a prof about an exam answer last week.
I don't know about that. Try it.BarbellDreams wrote:Maybe that would work...but I'm a guy, so I lose automatically.lawgod wrote:I'm with the OP on this one. I think she should file a complaint that the professor is sexually harassing her to get back at him.
I think I usually ignore the question prompt on issue spotters, and just analyze the issues.
Communicate now with those who not only know what a legal education is, but can offer you worthy advice and commentary as you complete the three most educational, yet challenging years of your law related post graduate life.
Register now, it's still FREE!
Already a member? Login
- Cupidity
- Posts: 2214
- Joined: Sun Jun 07, 2009 10:21 pm
Re: Spoke with a prof about an exam answer last week.
Maybe your briefs don't look like mine, but even in persuasive briefs, it is necessary to address the anticipated arguments of the other party?
- BarbellDreams
- Posts: 2251
- Joined: Thu Mar 19, 2009 6:10 pm
Re: Spoke with a prof about an exam answer last week.
Anticipating and analyzing counter arguments to show how you can prevail over them is different than citing counterargument and then conceding how right they are and how your side has no chance.Cupidity wrote:Maybe your briefs don't look like mine, but even in persuasive briefs, it is necessary to address the anticipated arguments of the other party?
-
- Posts: 5923
- Joined: Tue Apr 21, 2009 9:10 pm
Re: Spoke with a prof about an exam answer last week.
ConLaw is just a shitty class. It was my lowest grade too, FWIW. I also thought that class would torpedo my transfer chances, but it didn't. You should have applied if you really wanted to go (although maybe not to H).
-
- Posts: 680
- Joined: Fri Mar 20, 2009 4:07 pm
Re: Spoke with a prof about an exam answer last week.
Correct.BarbellDreams wrote:Anticipating and analyzing counter arguments to show how you can prevail over them is different than citing counterargument and then conceding how right they are and how your side has no chance.Cupidity wrote:Maybe your briefs don't look like mine, but even in persuasive briefs, it is necessary to address the anticipated arguments of the other party?
Seriously? What are you waiting for?
Now there's a charge.
Just kidding ... it's still FREE!
Already a member? Login