Only one not turned off by Biglaw hours?

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albusdumbledore
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Re: Only one not turned off by Biglaw hours?

Postby albusdumbledore » Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:25 pm

ToTransferOrNot wrote:Fortunately some of us can find significant others who are also career-oriented, who have no desire to blow tons of money and 18+ years of life on raising kids.

Sounds fun

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dresden doll
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Re: Only one not turned off by Biglaw hours?

Postby dresden doll » Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:26 pm

Borhas wrote:probably so, though the temptation of the $$ is a danger to all of us

w/ that said, BigLaw plays a role in the world, and it's somewhat a necessary evil. We should commend boring people for doing the boring jobs, somebody has to them and they are probably the best suited to do so.

Though I agree, these peeps ain't gettin' laid


I'm not at all taking some comprehensive anti-Biglaw stance. I think the salary justifies the hours. But I also think it's ludicrous to claim that those hours don't take a personal toll or involve no sacrifice whatsoever (i.e. you lose nothing by laboring from 5:30 am to 10 pm) unless you're content with not having a personal life.

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dresden doll
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Re: Only one not turned off by Biglaw hours?

Postby dresden doll » Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:28 pm

ToTransferOrNot wrote:Fortunately some of us can find significant others who are also career-oriented, who have no desire to blow tons of money and 18+ years of life on raising kids.


I'd like to think I'm fairly career oriented and I fully support my SO's wanting to be on the partnership track at his Biglaw firm. I'm just not willing to agree that those hours entail no sacrifice for those of us who like the idea of having children, actively participating in their upbringing and spending decent amount of time with our spouses.

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sunynp
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Re: Only one not turned off by Biglaw hours?

Postby sunynp » Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:30 pm

Did anyone read the hours the Skadden associate who died was working? Do you honestly think you could maintain that pace for years? Some people can, more power to them. But most people just don't have the legendary energy and stamina required to sustain that pace for years with no time off.

You won't get called on a Thursday for something due on Monday. If you are lucky you will get a call around 5pm or 6pm on Friday for something due Saturday. If you notice on Above the Law, one of the main questions for associates is if they manage to take their vacations or are expected to cancel them. They also ask how often you have to check your blackberry - virtually every firm required 24/7 attention and availability.

My point is that you do not understand what working these hours really entails. As I said, some people can manage it without a problem. Most people have trouble sustaining the pace. People leave biglaw in droves after a couple of years, the hours are the main reason why.

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: Only one not turned off by Biglaw hours?

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:30 pm

dresden doll wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:Fortunately some of us can find significant others who are also career-oriented, who have no desire to blow tons of money and 18+ years of life on raising kids.


I'd like to think I'm fairly career oriented and I fully support my SO's wanting to be on the partnership track at his Biglaw firm. I'm just not willing to agree that those hours entail no sacrifice for those of us who like the idea of having children, actively participating in their upbringing and spending decent amount of time with our spouses.


Oh, I agree with you there. I was taking more issue with the whole "forever alone/no sex club," because work-induced stressed-out rage sex can be pretty fun.

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Bigbub75
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Re: Only one not turned off by Biglaw hours?

Postby Bigbub75 » Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:32 pm

dresden doll wrote:
Bigbub75 wrote:I'm currently a 2L evening student at a solid regional school. I've done "well" so far so biglaw/ midlaw is possibly within my reach. In my research and from reading blogs/TLS one major complaint I continue to read about is the hours. But to be honest the hours don't seem to be that bad. Because I hold a fulltime job and go to school my days start at around 5:30am and end at around 10:00pm Monday - Thursday. Friday evenings I take it easy and then I usually study on the weekends. So BigLaw just seems like it would be a continuation of the current hours I keep, which aren't wonderful, but it certainty aren't unbearable either. Granted I am not married and don't have children so I am sure that may change the dynamics.

Prior to law school I worked at Merrill Lynch, and working at least until 7 was the norm. I also have friends who are doctors, Vice Presidents at Fortune 500 companies, Investment Bankers, etc and all seem to work insane hours. No matter what field you work in, if you want to be successful, it appears that long hours are par for the course. I know very few extremely successful people that work 40 hours a week. Maybe because I am a non-trad my outlook is different, but Biglaw hours don't seem to be that big of a turn off to me.


I have no idea how a panegyric about how it makes sense that six figure salaries necessitate long hours in any way proves that those long hours do not objectively suck.


Not saying it doesn't suck. I just don't think it's unbearable given my current schedule. it's also expected in most fields where you are highly compensated.

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Kronk
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Re: Only one not turned off by Biglaw hours?

Postby Kronk » Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:33 pm

First of all, BigLaw hours aren't 5:30am-10pm. I LOL @ people who think they couldn't find more fun, productive, and fulfilling uses of their time than sitting around reviewing trial transcripts, discovery, and writing stock motions (or in the alternative, substituting clients names in contracts).

But yes, I was 100% implying people that are okay with that are forever-alone types. Meet a girl you enjoy spending time with and you won't want to be getting comp'd dinner while you write summary judgment motions. You'll want to be motor-boating. I objectively judge anyone that would take money over motor-boating opportunities.

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dresden doll
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Re: Only one not turned off by Biglaw hours?

Postby dresden doll » Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:35 pm

Kronk wrote: Meet a girl you enjoy spending time with and you won't want to be getting comp'd dinner while you write summary judgment motions. You'll want to be motor-boating.


basically this.

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MC Southstar
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Re: Only one not turned off by Biglaw hours?

Postby MC Southstar » Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:36 pm

dresden doll wrote:
Kronk wrote: Meet a girl you enjoy spending time with and you won't want to be getting comp'd dinner while you write summary judgment motions. You'll want to be motor-boating.


basically this.


Thank god I'm asexual.

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AreJay711
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Re: Only one not turned off by Biglaw hours?

Postby AreJay711 » Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:37 pm

I don't think biglaw hours seem that bad. I had a job where it was only 8 hours a day but a 2 hr commute each way and life was bearable (for a lot less money). The thing is, if you don't enjoy the work it would be straight up hell. If you had children it would also be a bit harder because that is where the rest of your time would be spent.

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: Only one not turned off by Biglaw hours?

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:37 pm

AreJay711 wrote:I don't think biglaw hours seem that bad. I had a job where it was only 8 hours a day but a 2 hr commute each way and life was bearable (for a lot less money). The thing is, if you don't enjoy the work it would be straight up hell. If you had children it would also be a bit harder because that is where the rest of your time would be spent.


Not doing that is the solution to 99% of the world's problems.

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Moxie
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Re: Only one not turned off by Biglaw hours?

Postby Moxie » Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:38 pm

Kronk wrote:I LOL @ people who think they couldn't find more fun, productive, and fulfilling uses of their time than sitting around reviewing trial transcripts, discovery, and writing stock motions (or in the alternative, substituting clients names in contracts).

But yes, I was 100% implying people that are okay with that are forever-alone types. Meet a girl you enjoy spending time with and you won't want to be getting comp'd dinner while you write summary judgment motions. You'll want to be motor-boating. I objectively judge anyone that would take money over motor-boating opportunities.


TMFCR.

AreJay711 wrote:I don't think biglaw hours seem that bad. I had a job where it was only 8 hours a day but a 2 hr commute each way and life was bearable (for a lot less money). The thing is, if you don't enjoy the work it would be straight up hell. If you had children it would also be a bit harder because that is where the rest of your time would be spent.


And how many Biglaw lawyers genuinely enjoy their work? (Maybe a few at the beginning, but clearly job satisfaction isn't high a number of years in)

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sundevil77
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Re: Only one not turned off by Biglaw hours?

Postby sundevil77 » Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:45 pm

The labor/leisure tradeoff for some people in this thread is astonishing. Diminishing marginal returns of money really kick in for me around the 9-10 hr. mark. Working 12 hr. days/6 days a week for an extended period of time just doesn't appeal to me.

Also, some people have expressed the belief that you have to work long hours to be extremely successful. Not true. If you want to grind out hours for the man, you can certainly be successful in the law. But if you are intelligent, well-liked, and motivated you can do very well for yourself by being your own boss. You take more risk, but there's a lot more reward. 40 hr/week for $150K? Yes, please.

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rayiner
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Re: Only one not turned off by Biglaw hours?

Postby rayiner » Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:47 pm

englawyer wrote:overall, biglaw is one of the more lucrative professional options in my opinion. it probably loses out to "elite" engineering (starting software engineer at facebook etc is over 90k nowadays i think?), i-banking, and consulting. maybe dentistry and some kinds of medicine too


Google is in the six figures now I believe, with tons of perks that figure into the compensation. But getting Google is like getting Wachtell, it's extremely selective.

I think law does lose out to banking, obviously, but I'd argue compensation in consulting is broadly similar to law (again, assuming you don't make partner/become CEO somewhere). I think lawyers have a better QoL though. Extensive travel is physically and emotionally exhausting. And unlike bankers most lawyers seem to get reasonable sleep.

ToTransferOrNot
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Re: Only one not turned off by Biglaw hours?

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:49 pm

rayiner wrote:
englawyer wrote:overall, biglaw is one of the more lucrative professional options in my opinion. it probably loses out to "elite" engineering (starting software engineer at facebook etc is over 90k nowadays i think?), i-banking, and consulting. maybe dentistry and some kinds of medicine too


Google is in the six figures now I believe, with tons of perks that figure into the compensation. But getting Google is like getting Wachtell, it's extremely selective.

I think law does lose out to banking, obviously, but I'd argue compensation in consulting is broadly similar to law (again, assuming you don't make partner/become CEO somewhere). I think lawyers have a better QoL though. Extensive travel is physically and emotionally exhausting. And unlike bankers most lawyers seem to get reasonable sleep.


But the sweet, sweet frequent flier miles. Plus, hotel living is awesome.

I'm really hoping that I'm on a plane between Chicago and New York on a weekly basis once the ball starts rolling.

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dresden doll
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Re: Only one not turned off by Biglaw hours?

Postby dresden doll » Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:51 pm

ToTransferOrNot wrote:
dresden doll wrote:
ToTransferOrNot wrote:Fortunately some of us can find significant others who are also career-oriented, who have no desire to blow tons of money and 18+ years of life on raising kids.


I'd like to think I'm fairly career oriented and I fully support my SO's wanting to be on the partnership track at his Biglaw firm. I'm just not willing to agree that those hours entail no sacrifice for those of us who like the idea of having children, actively participating in their upbringing and spending decent amount of time with our spouses.


Oh, I agree with you there. I was taking more issue with the whole "forever alone/no sex club," because work-induced stressed-out rage sex can be pretty fun.


I was being facetious. With that said, I sincerely believe that workholics are far more likely to be forever alones, not least because many people out there don't feel like putting up with someone's Biglaw schedule.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Only one not turned off by Biglaw hours?

Postby CanadianWolf » Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:51 pm

Long hours are common in many professions, but the pressures associated with biglaw attorney positions are not as common. Long hours & significant job related pressures = high stress level.

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Kronk
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Re: Only one not turned off by Biglaw hours?

Postby Kronk » Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:54 pm

rayiner wrote:
englawyer wrote:overall, biglaw is one of the more lucrative professional options in my opinion. it probably loses out to "elite" engineering (starting software engineer at facebook etc is over 90k nowadays i think?), i-banking, and consulting. maybe dentistry and some kinds of medicine too


Google is in the six figures now I believe, with tons of perks that figure into the compensation. But getting Google is like getting Wachtell, it's extremely selective.

I think law does lose out to banking, obviously, but I'd argue compensation in consulting is broadly similar to law (again, assuming you don't make partner/become CEO somewhere). I think lawyers have a better QoL though. Extensive travel is physically and emotionally exhausting. And unlike bankers most lawyers seem to get reasonable sleep.


What branch of Google? Just the engineering section? I have 5 friends that work at Google. It's not terribly selective as far as grades go. You have to have good grades and have gone to a good school, but I know people that got jobs at Google that couldn't get jobs anywhere else. It has a lot to do with personality fit. Their interview process is pretty lengthy and at the end your interviewer has to write a 30 page paper about you. Probably pretty selective in that it's pretty intangible.

And unless you're talking about engineering, which I'm not 100% sure about but I don't think starts in six figures, Google employees start at a little over 50k and their pay is actually hourly with overtime. At their first promotion, some say their pay actually comes down because they get salaried at around 50-55k and have no overtime benefits.

ETA: Asked my friend, and Google engineers do make six figures, but 90k to start. So you're right, considering you're probably only talking about engineers.

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rayiner
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Re: Only one not turned off by Biglaw hours?

Postby rayiner » Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:06 pm

sunynp wrote:Did anyone read the hours the Skadden associate who died was working? Do you honestly think you could maintain that pace for years? Some people can, more power to them. But most people just don't have the legendary energy and stamina required to sustain that pace for years with no time off.

You won't get called on a Thursday for something due on Monday. If you are lucky you will get a call around 5pm or 6pm on Friday for something due Saturday. If you notice on Above the Law, one of the main questions for associates is if they manage to take their vacations or are expected to cancel them. They also ask how often you have to check your blackberry - virtually every firm required 24/7 attention and availability.

My point is that you do not understand what working these hours really entails. As I said, some people can manage it without a problem. Most people have trouble sustaining the pace. People leave biglaw in droves after a couple of years, the hours are the main reason why.


My friend is a chemical engineer who is expected to check his Blackberry 24/7 (because when he gets that late-night e-mail, shit is literally burning down). He spent his vacation last year (Thanksgiving) tethered to his Blackberry. He pulls about 60 hours a week consistently. He gets paid half what a first-year biglawyer does.

Re: family life, it's not impossible but it's a trade-off. My dad preached the virtues of a 16 hour work day while I was growing up. But he had plenty of time to spend with me and my brother. It's a trade-off. He didn't (and still doesn't) have any hobbies. He woke up early and got home at 8-9, cooked dinner and made sure we did our homework, and went to sleep. His social activities were all of the form of dinner at home with friends and family, not a drink with his buddies after work. It's a very specific kind of life and it has to be something that works for you, but it's not intractable.

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rayiner
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Re: Only one not turned off by Biglaw hours?

Postby rayiner » Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:08 pm

ToTransferOrNot wrote:
rayiner wrote:
englawyer wrote:overall, biglaw is one of the more lucrative professional options in my opinion. it probably loses out to "elite" engineering (starting software engineer at facebook etc is over 90k nowadays i think?), i-banking, and consulting. maybe dentistry and some kinds of medicine too


Google is in the six figures now I believe, with tons of perks that figure into the compensation. But getting Google is like getting Wachtell, it's extremely selective.

I think law does lose out to banking, obviously, but I'd argue compensation in consulting is broadly similar to law (again, assuming you don't make partner/become CEO somewhere). I think lawyers have a better QoL though. Extensive travel is physically and emotionally exhausting. And unlike bankers most lawyers seem to get reasonable sleep.


But the sweet, sweet frequent flier miles. Plus, hotel living is awesome.

I'm really hoping that I'm on a plane between Chicago and New York on a weekly basis once the ball starts rolling.


Yes, the frequent flier miles are great (never paid for a ticket as a kid, still don't pay for most of them) but my dad did this his entire life and it blows. It's the sort of thing that wears you down on the inside over the long term. I did it just once for a month but I could still feel that process.

fingersxd
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Re: Only one not turned off by Biglaw hours?

Postby fingersxd » Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:09 pm

sunynp wrote:Did anyone read the hours the Skadden associate who died was working? Do you honestly think you could maintain that pace for years? Some people can, more power to them. But most people just don't have the legendary energy and stamina required to sustain that pace for years with no time off.

You won't get called on a Thursday for something due on Monday. If you are lucky you will get a call around 5pm or 6pm on Friday for something due Saturday. If you notice on Above the Law, one of the main questions for associates is if they manage to take their vacations or are expected to cancel them. They also ask how often you have to check your blackberry - virtually every firm required 24/7 attention and availability.

My point is that you do not understand what working these hours really entails. As I said, some people can manage it without a problem. Most people have trouble sustaining the pace. People leave biglaw in droves after a couple of years, the hours are the main reason why.


This is an important point. Even when you are not in the office you are on call or working. You might only be in the office 7-7 (if you're lucky), but you'll sure as hell be on your blackberry or working remotely much of the other time.

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Bigbub75
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Re: Only one not turned off by Biglaw hours?

Postby Bigbub75 » Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:11 pm

OP here. Yeah I wasn't trying to imply that Biglaw is from 5:30am - 10pm. Just using my current schedule as an example of keeping up long hours over an extended period of time and not exploding.

I'm not gonna get in a pissing contest on TLS, but I was cleary unaware of the law that made it illegal in 39 states to have sex after 10pm or on the weekends. My bad!

Zazelmaf
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Re: Only one not turned off by Biglaw hours?

Postby Zazelmaf » Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:12 pm

I would not give up my youth and precious time with my wife and 2 amazing pets for insane hours. Money isn't worth that much to me.

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rayiner
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Re: Only one not turned off by Biglaw hours?

Postby rayiner » Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:13 pm

Kronk wrote:ETA: Asked my friend, and Google engineers do make six figures, but 90k to start. So you're right, considering you're probably only talking about engineers.


Yes, talking about engineers (and management, which is also engineers). Google was at $95k in 2008 for a B.S. and up to $130k with an M.S.

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albusdumbledore
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Re: Only one not turned off by Biglaw hours?

Postby albusdumbledore » Fri Jul 15, 2011 1:14 pm

Zazelmaf wrote:I would not give up my youth and precious time with my wife and 2 amazing pets for insane hours. Money isn't worth that much to me.

Not to mention your health. Working that much takes a physical toll too.




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