Only one not turned off by Biglaw hours?

(Study Tips, Dealing With Stress, Maintaining a Social Life, Financial Aid, Internships, Bar Exam, Careers in Law . . . )
User avatar
rayiner
Posts: 6184
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:43 am

Re: Only one not turned off by Biglaw hours?

Postby rayiner » Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:20 am

DoubleChecks wrote:
englawyer wrote:
DoubleChecks wrote:
That is also a reason why others gawk at the hours. I mean, there are a number of other professions that make just as much as biglaw (excluding partnership) once you factor in average debt...but they don't have anywhere near the insane hours and unpredictability. Oh yeah, that was my other main point haha. :P


what are these professions?


after factoring debt? accounting, dentistry, pharmacy, certain types of engineering, etc.


None of those fields (except maybe dentistry) have the same potential earning power down the line. I'll have less disposable income, accounting for debt and CoL as a lawyer than as an engineer, but in 10 years when my debts are paid off I'll have a legitimate career track in-house or something instead of still making ~100k until retirement.

Re: family. My dad worked 70-80 hour weeks his whole career and has a great family life. Kids don't remember their interactions with you until they're 4-5 anyway and don't get mad for breaking dinner appointments. Don't try to structure your social life with planned shows and stuff and find a spouse who will be happy as long as he/she has your full attention during those 35 hour weeks and you'll be fine.

User avatar
englawyer
Posts: 1270
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:57 pm

Re: Only one not turned off by Biglaw hours?

Postby englawyer » Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:24 am

DoubleChecks wrote:
englawyer wrote:
DoubleChecks wrote:
That is also a reason why others gawk at the hours. I mean, there are a number of other professions that make just as much as biglaw (excluding partnership) once you factor in average debt...but they don't have anywhere near the insane hours and unpredictability. Oh yeah, that was my other main point haha. :P


what are these professions?


after factoring debt? accounting, dentistry, pharmacy, certain types of engineering, etc.


loan payment (150k debt, 10 yrs) = 1.6k.
big law take home = 100k or 8.3k a month.
net take home = 6.7k.
approximate before tax equivalent = (6.7*12*1.4) = 112k.

thus after factoring debt, the starting salary equivalent is roughly 112k.

you can hit that in engineering but only after a bunch of experience, and you can't go much higher (probably mid 100's). pharmacist starts at like 75k and there is a bunch of grad school debt involved. can't speak to accounting/dentistry though.

overall, biglaw is one of the more lucrative professional options in my opinion. it probably loses out to "elite" engineering (starting software engineer at facebook etc is over 90k nowadays i think?), i-banking, and consulting. maybe dentistry and some kinds of medicine too

User avatar
DoubleChecks
Posts: 2333
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:35 pm

Re: Only one not turned off by Biglaw hours?

Postby DoubleChecks » Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:31 am

rayiner wrote:
DoubleChecks wrote:after factoring debt? accounting, dentistry, pharmacy, certain types of engineering, etc.


None of those fields (except maybe dentistry) have the same potential earning power down the line. I'll have less disposable income, accounting for debt and CoL as a lawyer than as an engineer, but in 10 years when my debts are paid off I'll have a legitimate career track in-house or something instead of still making ~100k until retirement.

Re: family. My dad worked 70-80 hour weeks his whole career and has a great family life. Kids don't remember their interactions with you until they're 4-5 anyway and don't get mad for breaking dinner appointments. Don't try to structure your social life with planned shows and stuff and find a spouse who will be happy as long as he/she has your full attention during those 35 hour weeks and you'll be fine.


my lack of familiarity (along with the variability) of in-house and how that would be 10 yrs down to road makes me unable to comment on this. im genuinely curious though, how does in-house fair on avg. 10 yrs down the road? also, keep in mind i was just talking about non-partnership track biglaw (i.e. first few years), not law as a career choice.
DoubleChecks wrote:I mean, there are a number of other professions that make just as much as biglaw (excluding partnership) once you factor in average debt...but they don't have anywhere near the insane hours and unpredictability.


englawyer wrote:loan payment (150k debt, 10 yrs) = 1.6k.
big law take home = 100k or 8.3k a month.
net take home = 6.7k.
approximate before tax equivalent = (6.7*12*1.4) = 112k.

thus after factoring debt, the starting salary equivalent is roughly 112k.

you can hit that in engineering but only after a bunch of experience, and you can't go much higher (probably mid 100's). pharmacist starts at like 75k and there is a bunch of grad school debt involved. can't speak to accounting/dentistry though.

overall, biglaw is one of the more lucrative professional options in my opinion. it probably loses out to "elite" engineering (starting software engineer at facebook etc is over 90k nowadays i think?), i-banking, and consulting. maybe dentistry and some kinds of medicine too


yeah, that is why i mentioned 'certain types' of engineering. that being said, maybe you're right about pharmacy -- i dont know how the general market for pharmacy fairs; the pharmacists i know all came out of UT, which i believe is pretty highly ranked...and id say looking at 100k for that isnt too off. that leaves dentistry, accounting, and now ima start throwing things like optometry in as well lol (though that is not nearly as solid as dentistry).
Last edited by DoubleChecks on Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
albusdumbledore
Posts: 1132
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:38 pm

Re: Only one not turned off by Biglaw hours?

Postby albusdumbledore » Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:39 am

:roll: . Pharmacists don't start at 75k. More like 110k.

User avatar
DoubleChecks
Posts: 2333
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:35 pm

Re: Only one not turned off by Biglaw hours?

Postby DoubleChecks » Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:41 am

albusdumbledore wrote::roll: . Pharmacists don't start at 75k. More like 110k.


i dont know the stats or how many, but based on anecdotes/personal experience, this is closer to what i was thinking/have seen.

User avatar
englawyer
Posts: 1270
Joined: Wed Feb 14, 2007 10:57 pm

Re: Only one not turned off by Biglaw hours?

Postby englawyer » Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:44 am

DoubleChecks wrote:
albusdumbledore wrote::roll: . Pharmacists don't start at 75k. More like 110k.


i dont know the stats or how many, but based on anecdotes/personal experience, this is closer to what i was thinking/have seen.


http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=496662

Dunno. In SF, Walgreen pharmacists start at $47/hr plus a signing bonus, but the annual increases in salary are pretty miniscule, like a dollar an hour increase.


that is 94k a year to start, and $2000/yr raises, without factoring debt. law (including debt) is 112k a year to start and 10k raises. i also imagine law has better bonuses.

liLtuneChi
Posts: 109
Joined: Thu May 19, 2011 8:28 pm

Re: Only one not turned off by Biglaw hours?

Postby liLtuneChi » Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:45 am

DoubleChecks wrote:the insane hours and unpredictability. Oh yeah, that was my other main point haha. :P


don't have kids and its not a big deal

assuming your 26 and just graduated law school, its not that hard to wait of for 5-6 more years until you either move on and get on partner track

just like law school is easy and not a big deal I look at biglaw the same way

12 hours worked during weekdays isn't very hard and throw in a couple of hours each weekend and your golden. If your worried about having to cancel your weekend plans cause your needed in the office, then you don't deserve to get paid the money.

User avatar
albusdumbledore
Posts: 1132
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:38 pm

Re: Only one not turned off by Biglaw hours?

Postby albusdumbledore » Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:47 am

englawyer wrote:
DoubleChecks wrote:
albusdumbledore wrote::roll: . Pharmacists don't start at 75k. More like 110k.


i dont know the stats or how many, but based on anecdotes/personal experience, this is closer to what i was thinking/have seen.


http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=496662

Dunno. In SF, Walgreen pharmacists start at $47/hr plus a signing bonus, but the annual increases in salary are pretty miniscule, like a dollar an hour increase.


that is 94k a year to start, and $2000/yr raises, without factoring debt. law (including debt) is 112k a year to start and 10k raises. i also imagine law has better bonuses.


Yeah, but many pharmacists go independent after a few years and acquire several stores. That's where the potential for big dollars is.

liLtuneChi
Posts: 109
Joined: Thu May 19, 2011 8:28 pm

Re: Only one not turned off by Biglaw hours?

Postby liLtuneChi » Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:48 am

DoubleChecks wrote:
liLtuneChi wrote:I agree. I think alot of law students are pampered whiners. Firm life isn't that bad and getting in 2500 hours is not that hard at all. I've only been working as a summer but billing 8 hrs a day is not very hard. Just show up at 8am and leave at 8pm. Take a 45 minute lunch, 25 minutes for bathroom breaks, etc. And as long as you don't daze off too much, I don't think billing 10/11 hours worked is very hard at all. I've been billing 7/8 hours as a summer so far.

That would come out to 50 hours billed a week (if you only worked weekdays) and multiply that by 50 weeks and your at 2500 hours billed with a 2 week vacation for the year. Throw in a couple of weekends worked each month and you can easily get to 2700-2800 for the year. Now I realize that some weeks would get more hectic than others if there is deal closing or a case about to go to trial but that would just mean that other weeks would get very chill so there is the trade off.

I think as long as you don't have a family and kids, firm life is not very hard at all. This is simply from my experience so far as a summer.


yeah sorry...that is not what being an associate will be like im sure lol.


and if it isn't no big deal to me

I don't have a wife or kid. I'm used to doing all nighters finishing work. The office I'm working at is kinda chill and a good firm by big law standards based on hours. If I have to come back, I don't think it'll be quite like the average NY biglaw firm.

User avatar
Moxie
Posts: 665
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2009 3:27 pm

Re: Only one not turned off by Biglaw hours?

Postby Moxie » Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:53 am

ToTransferOrNot wrote:
liLtuneChi wrote:This is simply from my experience so far as a summer.


Yeah, about that.


liLtuneChi wrote:don't have kids and its not a big deal

assuming your 26 and just graduated law school, its not that hard to wait of for 5-6 more years until you either move on and get on partner track

just like law school is easy and not a big deal I look at biglaw the same way

12 hours worked during weekdays isn't very hard and throw in a couple of hours each weekend and your golden. If your worried about having to cancel your weekend plans cause your needed in the office, then you don't deserve to get paid the money.


Well not everyone has your sense of priorities. Life shouldn't be about choosing between a career and a family, most people hope to have "some" balance of both.

I know associates I work with don't find it to be difficult, but these people also have ambitions in their life that don't involve sitting around the office in every waking moment of their spare time.

And lol at the implicit assumption that 5-6 years is not a significant period of time.

User avatar
DoubleChecks
Posts: 2333
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:35 pm

Re: Only one not turned off by Biglaw hours?

Postby DoubleChecks » Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:55 am

englawyer wrote:
DoubleChecks wrote:
albusdumbledore wrote::roll: . Pharmacists don't start at 75k. More like 110k.


i dont know the stats or how many, but based on anecdotes/personal experience, this is closer to what i was thinking/have seen.


http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=496662

Dunno. In SF, Walgreen pharmacists start at $47/hr plus a signing bonus, but the annual increases in salary are pretty miniscule, like a dollar an hour increase.


that is 94k a year to start, and $2000/yr raises, without factoring debt. law (including debt) is 112k a year to start and 10k raises. i also imagine law has better bonuses.


is pharm only 40 hrs? it cant be 50? that makes a big diff in calculations

User avatar
DoubleChecks
Posts: 2333
Joined: Fri Sep 25, 2009 4:35 pm

Re: Only one not turned off by Biglaw hours?

Postby DoubleChecks » Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:57 am

liLtuneChi wrote:
DoubleChecks wrote:the insane hours and unpredictability. Oh yeah, that was my other main point haha. :P


don't have kids and its not a big deal

assuming your 26 and just graduated law school, its not that hard to wait of for 5-6 more years until you either move on and get on partner track

just like law school is easy and not a big deal I look at biglaw the same way

12 hours worked during weekdays isn't very hard and throw in a couple of hours each weekend and your golden. If your worried about having to cancel your weekend plans cause your needed in the office, then you don't deserve to get paid the money.


lol i dont even know how to respond to your post.

User avatar
Borhas
Posts: 4862
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:09 pm

Re: Only one not turned off by Biglaw hours?

Postby Borhas » Fri Jul 15, 2011 11:58 am

Bigbub75 wrote:I'm currently a 2L evening student at a solid regional school. I've done "well" so far so biglaw/ midlaw is possibly within my reach. In my research and from reading blogs/TLS one major complaint I continue to read about is the hours. But to be honest the hours don't seem to be that bad. Because I hold a fulltime job and go to school my days start at around 5:30am and end at around 10:00pm Monday - Thursday. Friday evenings I take it easy and then I usually study on the weekends. So BigLaw just seems like it would be a continuation of the current hours I keep, which aren't wonderful, but it certainty aren't unbearable either. Granted I am not married and don't have children so I am sure that may change the dynamics.

Prior to law school I worked at Merrill Lynch, and working at least until 7 was the norm. I also have friends who are doctors, Vice Presidents at Fortune 500 companies, Investment Bankers, etc and all seem to work insane hours. No matter what field you work in, if you want to be successful, it appears that long hours are par for the course. I know very few extremely successful people that work 40 hours a week. Maybe because I am a non-trad my outlook is different, but Biglaw hours don't seem to be that big of a turn off to me.


I was bored just thinking about your life


albusdumbledore wrote::roll: . Pharmacists don't start at 75k. More like 110k.


The only professional job I think would be more mind numbingly boring... what do they share in common? Glorified transaction costs. A machine could do a pharmacists job (and in hospitals, vending machines can actually replace pharmacists)
Last edited by Borhas on Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

fingersxd
Posts: 643
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:04 pm

Re: Only one not turned off by Biglaw hours?

Postby fingersxd » Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:00 pm

albusdumbledore wrote:
englawyer wrote:
DoubleChecks wrote:
albusdumbledore wrote::roll: . Pharmacists don't start at 75k. More like 110k.


i dont know the stats or how many, but based on anecdotes/personal experience, this is closer to what i was thinking/have seen.


http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=496662

Dunno. In SF, Walgreen pharmacists start at $47/hr plus a signing bonus, but the annual increases in salary are pretty miniscule, like a dollar an hour increase.


that is 94k a year to start, and $2000/yr raises, without factoring debt. law (including debt) is 112k a year to start and 10k raises. i also imagine law has better bonuses.


Yeah, but many pharmacists go independent after a few years and acquire several stores. That's where the potential for big dollars is.


Plus, most pharmacists work while they are in school so the debt isn't comparable. Don't forget, law school (vs. say pharmacy) also means you are giving up more time (an extra year I think?) of earning potential.


Finally, moving in-house usually means a pretty steep haircut in salary. Yes, if you do biglaw and make partner, move in-house at a big form or financial institution your career earnings will be well in excess of pharmacists, dentists, etc. but that is at the cost of many hours of additional work. 100k+ salarry isn't exactly a poor quality of life to have.

User avatar
Borhas
Posts: 4862
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:09 pm

Re: Only one not turned off by Biglaw hours?

Postby Borhas » Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:02 pm

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/worl ... 6082685699

and you thought having yer jerbs outsourced to India would be scary...

AT a chain of clinics in the United States, vending machines rather than pharmacists dispense prescription drugs.

Molina Medical Group officials say the big machines make life simpler for patients but their use has drawn objections from some pharmacists.

The refrigerator-size kiosks hold a stock of medications for common illnesses such as colds, flus and rashes so patients can have their prescription filled before they leave the clinic.

Jon Roth, chief executive officer of the California Pharmacists Association says removing pharmacists from the prescription process could, at worst, result in dangerous therapy.

User avatar
dresden doll
Posts: 6802
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2008 1:11 am

Re: Only one not turned off by Biglaw hours?

Postby dresden doll » Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:04 pm

This thread is a perfect way to identify resident members of the forever alone/no sex club.

User avatar
Kronk
Posts: 28282
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2008 9:18 pm

Re: Only one not turned off by Biglaw hours?

Postby Kronk » Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:06 pm

Image

User avatar
Kronk
Posts: 28282
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2008 9:18 pm

Re: Only one not turned off by Biglaw hours?

Postby Kronk » Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:07 pm

dresden doll wrote:This thread is a perfect way to identify resident members of the forever alone/no sex club.


Glad we were on the same page.

User avatar
Borhas
Posts: 4862
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:09 pm

Re: Only one not turned off by Biglaw hours?

Postby Borhas » Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:08 pm

Kronk wrote:
dresden doll wrote:This thread is a perfect way to identify resident members of the forever alone/no sex club.


Glad we were in the same thread.


tread carefully brother

User avatar
Moxie
Posts: 665
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2009 3:27 pm

Re: Only one not turned off by Biglaw hours?

Postby Moxie » Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:09 pm

dresden doll wrote:This thread is a perfect way to identify resident members of the forever alone/no sex club.


:lol:

User avatar
albusdumbledore
Posts: 1132
Joined: Thu Nov 05, 2009 4:38 pm

Re: Only one not turned off by Biglaw hours?

Postby albusdumbledore » Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:13 pm

Borhas wrote:
albusdumbledore wrote::roll: . Pharmacists don't start at 75k. More like 110k.


The only professional job I think would be more mind numbingly boring... what do they share in common? Glorified transaction costs. A machine could do a pharmacists job (and in hospitals, vending machines can actually replace pharmacists)

In the words of my brother-in-law, a recently graduated pharmacist: "A monkey could do my job". That being said, his work schedule is pretty awesome. He works the night shift at a retail pharmacy for an entire week (7 days in a row from 7:00 PM to 7:00 AM), then gets a week off. So he goes every other week, and it comes out to slightly less than 40 hours/week and gets a substantial bonus for working the night shift. Makes enough bank to travel and has the time to do it.

User avatar
dresden doll
Posts: 6802
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2008 1:11 am

Re: Only one not turned off by Biglaw hours?

Postby dresden doll » Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:14 pm

Bigbub75 wrote:I'm currently a 2L evening student at a solid regional school. I've done "well" so far so biglaw/ midlaw is possibly within my reach. In my research and from reading blogs/TLS one major complaint I continue to read about is the hours. But to be honest the hours don't seem to be that bad. Because I hold a fulltime job and go to school my days start at around 5:30am and end at around 10:00pm Monday - Thursday. Friday evenings I take it easy and then I usually study on the weekends. So BigLaw just seems like it would be a continuation of the current hours I keep, which aren't wonderful, but it certainty aren't unbearable either. Granted I am not married and don't have children so I am sure that may change the dynamics.

Prior to law school I worked at Merrill Lynch, and working at least until 7 was the norm. I also have friends who are doctors, Vice Presidents at Fortune 500 companies, Investment Bankers, etc and all seem to work insane hours. No matter what field you work in, if you want to be successful, it appears that long hours are par for the course. I know very few extremely successful people that work 40 hours a week. Maybe because I am a non-trad my outlook is different, but Biglaw hours don't seem to be that big of a turn off to me.


I have no idea how a panegyric about how it makes sense that six figure salaries necessitate long hours in any way proves that those long hours do not objectively suck.

User avatar
dresden doll
Posts: 6802
Joined: Mon Nov 24, 2008 1:11 am

Re: Only one not turned off by Biglaw hours?

Postby dresden doll » Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:16 pm

Borhas wrote:
Kronk wrote:
dresden doll wrote:This thread is a perfect way to identify resident members of the forever alone/no sex club.


Glad we were in the same thread.


tread carefully brother


Considering that we're not proclaiming that doing nothing beyond sleeping and working is a perfectly fine to live and involves no sacrifices whatsoever, I think we're cool.

User avatar
Borhas
Posts: 4862
Joined: Sun Sep 27, 2009 6:09 pm

Re: Only one not turned off by Biglaw hours?

Postby Borhas » Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:24 pm

probably so, though the temptation of the $$ is a danger to all of us

w/ that said, BigLaw plays a role in the world, and it's somewhat a necessary evil. We should commend boring people for doing the boring jobs, somebody has to them and they are probably the best suited to do so.

Though I agree, these peeps ain't gettin' laid

ToTransferOrNot
Posts: 1928
Joined: Thu Jan 22, 2009 12:45 am

Re: Only one not turned off by Biglaw hours?

Postby ToTransferOrNot » Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:24 pm

Fortunately some of us can find significant others who are also career-oriented, who have no desire to blow tons of money and 18+ years of life on raising kids.




Return to “Forum for Law School Students”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests