Coming down from my Ivory Tower

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lawgod
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Coming down from my Ivory Tower

Postby lawgod » Tue Jul 05, 2011 8:19 pm

Reading TLS, I get the impression that only T14s and top students from other schools get jobs.

In my school, NU, they estimate 60% of us will get jobs through OCI, which means 40% will not. To me that seems like the market is not interested in 40% of my class.

But. I'm working in a large corporation this summer, and all the attorneys who work there went to much worse schools. Kent, Depaul, Missouri, etc. There is nobody there from a T14 or even close. So first I thought it's because they got their jobs a while ago, and the market changed.
The kicker was today when a young lady walked in from another office across the country, and told me she'd gone to John Marshall. John Marshall? TTTT? And she's working in my legal department?

So I don't know the answer anymore. But I'm feeling a bit humbled.

rangers0412
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Postby rangers0412 » Tue Jul 05, 2011 8:25 pm

not john marshal..... In your legal department??? I THOUGHT THERE WERE LAWS AGAINST THAT

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Bronte
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Re: Coming down from my Ivory Tower

Postby Bronte » Tue Jul 05, 2011 8:31 pm

I would give you all the reasons your logic is flawed (for example, that you really only have one recent data point, the young lady), but who cares? You're already at a T14. Just work hard to get a job.

flcath
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Re: Coming down from my Ivory Tower

Postby flcath » Tue Jul 05, 2011 8:33 pm

There are some obvious fallacies that would keep you from developing this conclusion much further than you have, but yeah, I also think TLS weights LS too heavily in the LS/grades equation.

I think it's because so much of the site is devoted to helping kids decide which LS to choose on the front end (prior to knowing what grades you'll have), in which it obviously makes sense to choose the best one possible.

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thesealocust
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Re: Coming down from my Ivory Tower

Postby thesealocust » Tue Jul 05, 2011 9:53 pm

flcath wrote:I think it's because so much of the site is devoted to helping kids decide which LS to choose on the front end (prior to knowing what grades you'll have), in which it obviously makes sense to choose the best one possible.


Exactly. This is something I think about a lot. When I give advice on TLS, I know I could be talking to the kid who stuns his profs in every class or the kid who despite being smart really struggles with how to approach law school. It's fine to put money on being the exception to the rule - it's romantic, it's exciting, it displays courage or bravado or whatever. But ex ante the numbers compel harsh advice to any given student considering law school.

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ndirish2010
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Re: Coming down from my Ivory Tower

Postby ndirish2010 » Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:58 pm

flcath wrote:There are some obvious fallacies that would keep you from developing this conclusion much further than you have, but yeah, I also think TLS weights LS too heavily in the LS/grades equation.

I think it's because so much of the site is devoted to helping kids decide which LS to choose on the front end (prior to knowing what grades you'll have), in which it obviously makes sense to choose the best one possible.


Exactly. You have to assume everyone you're talking to on here is going to be median wherever they're going.

lawgod
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Re: Coming down from my Ivory Tower

Postby lawgod » Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:13 pm

ndirish2010 wrote:
flcath wrote:There are some obvious fallacies that would keep you from developing this conclusion much further than you have, but yeah, I also think TLS weights LS too heavily in the LS/grades equation.

I think it's because so much of the site is devoted to helping kids decide which LS to choose on the front end (prior to knowing what grades you'll have), in which it obviously makes sense to choose the best one possible.


Exactly. You have to assume everyone you're talking to on here is going to be median wherever they're going.


I don't assume that. I assumed I would be in either the 1/3 or the bottom 1/3, since there are twice as many of them as the middle 1/3.
And I was correct.

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Grizz
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Re: Coming down from my Ivory Tower

Postby Grizz » Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:17 pm

People from TTTTs can get jobs you know.

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Bronte
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Re: Coming down from my Ivory Tower

Postby Bronte » Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:17 pm

lawgod wrote:
ndirish2010 wrote:
flcath wrote:There are some obvious fallacies that would keep you from developing this conclusion much further than you have, but yeah, I also think TLS weights LS too heavily in the LS/grades equation.

I think it's because so much of the site is devoted to helping kids decide which LS to choose on the front end (prior to knowing what grades you'll have), in which it obviously makes sense to choose the best one possible.


Exactly. You have to assume everyone you're talking to on here is going to be median wherever they're going.


I don't assume that. I assumed I would be in either the 1/3 or the bottom 1/3, since there are twice as many of them as the middle 1/3.
And I was correct.


Hmm.

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robotclubmember
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Re: Coming down from my Ivory Tower

Postby robotclubmember » Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:33 pm

flcath wrote:There are some obvious fallacies that would keep you from developing this conclusion much further than you have, but yeah, I also think TLS weights LS too heavily in the LS/grades equation.


maybe, but if its weighed too heavily, why would you need at least top 5% at a TTT for the same job opportunities as median at T14?

flcath
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Re: Coming down from my Ivory Tower

Postby flcath » Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:48 pm

My only point is that we say on TLS (obviously correctly):

"Definitely go to CCN w/ $ over BU w/ $$"

Which is correct, and no one here would dispute it. But I'm proposing that that paradigm get carried forward to the ex post evaluation a little too much. For example, I think I'd (narrowly) prefer to be top 20% at BU than median at CLS, based purely on job prospects.

TLS offers school-selection advice to 0Ls, but it also offers job advice to 1L/2L/3Ls. I'm proposing that it does the former far more effectively than the latter.

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Bronte
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Re: Coming down from my Ivory Tower

Postby Bronte » Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:53 pm

flcath wrote:My only point is that we say on TLS (obviously correctly):

"Definitely go to CCN w/ $ over BU w/ $$"

Which is correct, and no one here would dispute it. But I'm proposing that that paradigm get carried forward to the ex post evaluation a little too much. For example, I think I'd (narrowly) prefer to be top 20% at BU than median at CLS, based purely on job prospects.

TLS offers school-selection advice to 0Ls, but it also offers job advice to 1L/2L/3Ls. I'm proposing that it does the former far more effectively than the latter.


I think it's moving towards more effective job advice. (Why am I always defending this website?) It's still a fairly young forum so the population of law students / lawyers is relatively low.

flcath
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Re: Coming down from my Ivory Tower

Postby flcath » Wed Jul 06, 2011 12:06 am

Bronte wrote:
flcath wrote:My only point is that we say on TLS (obviously correctly):

"Definitely go to CCN w/ $ over BU w/ $$"

Which is correct, and no one here would dispute it. But I'm proposing that that paradigm get carried forward to the ex post evaluation a little too much. For example, I think I'd (narrowly) prefer to be top 20% at BU than median at CLS, based purely on job prospects.

TLS offers school-selection advice to 0Ls, but it also offers job advice to 1L/2L/3Ls. I'm proposing that it does the former far more effectively than the latter.


I think it's moving towards more effective job advice. (Why am I always defending this website?) It's still a fairly young forum so the population of law students / lawyers is relatively low.

My theory as well.

Danteshek
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Re: Coming down from my Ivory Tower

Postby Danteshek » Wed Jul 06, 2011 12:07 am

This would be a great website if it were purged of some trolls and troll moderators

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thesealocust
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Re: Coming down from my Ivory Tower

Postby thesealocust » Wed Jul 06, 2011 12:20 am

Danteshek wrote:This would be a great website if it were purged of some trolls and troll moderators


Suffer not the witch to live.

flcath
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Re: Coming down from my Ivory Tower

Postby flcath » Wed Jul 06, 2011 12:29 am

thesealocust wrote:
Danteshek wrote:This would be a great website if it were purged of some trolls and troll moderators


Suffer not the witch to live.

Your avatar adds a whole new subtext to this dialogue.

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JusticeHarlan
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Re: Coming down from my Ivory Tower

Postby JusticeHarlan » Wed Jul 06, 2011 7:17 am

thesealocust wrote:
Danteshek wrote:This would be a great website if it were purged of some trolls and troll moderators


Suffer not the witch to live.

--ImageRemoved--

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ndirish2010
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Re: Coming down from my Ivory Tower

Postby ndirish2010 » Wed Jul 06, 2011 4:25 pm

flcath wrote:My only point is that we say on TLS (obviously correctly):

"Definitely go to CCN w/ $ over BU w/ $$"

Which is correct, and no one here would dispute it. But I'm proposing that that paradigm get carried forward to the ex post evaluation a little too much. For example, I think I'd (narrowly) prefer to be top 20% at BU than median at CLS, based purely on job prospects.

TLS offers school-selection advice to 0Ls, but it also offers job advice to 1L/2L/3Ls. I'm proposing that it does the former far more effectively than the latter.


Not sure I agree with the 20% BU vs median CLS statement but I agree with the general point. When you choose CCN over T2 $$$, it's with the expectation of- median CCN = biglaw..median T25 = I hope I get a job. However, top 10% T25 and the whole calculus changes. This is probably why you get so many people saying that they'll take the money and then 'work hard' to get top 10%. Doesn't work since only 10% of the people are in the top 10%.

flcath
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Re: Coming down from my Ivory Tower

Postby flcath » Wed Jul 06, 2011 5:40 pm

ndirish2010 wrote:
flcath wrote:My only point is that we say on TLS (obviously correctly):

"Definitely go to CCN w/ $ over BU w/ $$"

Which is correct, and no one here would dispute it. But I'm proposing that that paradigm get carried forward to the ex post evaluation a little too much. For example, I think I'd (narrowly) prefer to be top 20% at BU than median at CLS, based purely on job prospects.

TLS offers school-selection advice to 0Ls, but it also offers job advice to 1L/2L/3Ls. I'm proposing that it does the former far more effectively than the latter.


Not sure I agree with the 20% BU vs median CLS statement but I agree with the general point. When you choose CCN over T2 $$$, it's with the expectation of- median CCN = biglaw..median T25 = I hope I get a job. However, top 10% T25 and the whole calculus changes. This is probably why you get so many people saying that they'll take the money and then 'work hard' to get top 10%. Doesn't work since only 10% of the people are in the top 10%.

I think I'm more optimistic than you. I think ND (and BU) will end up placing ~30% of the c/o 2013 into Biglaw/Art. 3. And bear in mind, while that's considered optimistic for around here, it's actually less than we placed for c/o 2010. (I agree that they'll drop a little more for c/o 2012.)

And while both ranks are at the bottom of their respective school's realistic BL marketability range, I think I'd rather be out their trying to sell top 20% BU creds than median CLS creds. I wonder if ppl who'd favor the latter do it for some vague 'down the road' benefits like academia placement (Lol... why not POTUS?) or consulting.

lawgod
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Re: Coming down from my Ivory Tower

Postby lawgod » Fri Jul 08, 2011 7:22 pm

lawgod wrote:Reading TLS, I get the impression that only T14s and top students from other schools get jobs.

In my school, NU, they estimate 60% of us will get jobs through OCI, which means 40% will not. To me that seems like the market is not interested in 40% of my class.

But. I'm working in a large corporation this summer, and all the attorneys who work there went to much worse schools. Kent, Depaul, Missouri, etc. There is nobody there from a T14 or even close. So first I thought it's because they got their jobs a while ago, and the market changed.
The kicker was today when a young lady walked in from another office across the country, and told me she'd gone to John Marshall. John Marshall? TTTT? And she's working in my legal department?

So I don't know the answer anymore. But I'm feeling a bit humbled.


So I found out today that she is doing a job that doesn't require a JD to be hired for.
I'm back to my tower. (Gee; I wonder what all those peasants are doing in law school.)

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driftwood6
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Re: Coming down from my Ivory Tower

Postby driftwood6 » Fri Jul 08, 2011 7:42 pm

lawgod wrote:
lawgod wrote:Reading TLS, I get the impression that only T14s and top students from other schools get jobs.

In my school, NU, they estimate 60% of us will get jobs through OCI, which means 40% will not. To me that seems like the market is not interested in 40% of my class.

But. I'm working in a large corporation this summer, and all the attorneys who work there went to much worse schools. Kent, Depaul, Missouri, etc. There is nobody there from a T14 or even close. So first I thought it's because they got their jobs a while ago, and the market changed.
The kicker was today when a young lady walked in from another office across the country, and told me she'd gone to John Marshall. John Marshall? TTTT? And she's working in my legal department?

So I don't know the answer anymore. But I'm feeling a bit humbled.


So I found out today that she is doing a job that doesn't require a JD to be hired for.
I'm back to my tower. (Gee; I wonder what all those peasants are doing in law school.)


how did you get a job?

lawgod
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Re: Coming down from my Ivory Tower

Postby lawgod » Fri Jul 08, 2011 7:45 pm

driftwood6 wrote:
lawgod wrote:
lawgod wrote:Reading TLS, I get the impression that only T14s and top students from other schools get jobs.

In my school, NU, they estimate 60% of us will get jobs through OCI, which means 40% will not. To me that seems like the market is not interested in 40% of my class.

But. I'm working in a large corporation this summer, and all the attorneys who work there went to much worse schools. Kent, Depaul, Missouri, etc. There is nobody there from a T14 or even close. So first I thought it's because they got their jobs a while ago, and the market changed.
The kicker was today when a young lady walked in from another office across the country, and told me she'd gone to John Marshall. John Marshall? TTTT? And she's working in my legal department?

So I don't know the answer anymore. But I'm feeling a bit humbled.


So I found out today that she is doing a job that doesn't require a JD to be hired for.
I'm back to my tower. (Gee; I wonder what all those peasants are doing in law school.)


how did you get a job?


It's a 1L job. Not particularly hard to get.

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GeePee
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Re: Coming down from my Ivory Tower

Postby GeePee » Fri Jul 08, 2011 7:56 pm

Danteshek wrote:This would be a great website if it were purged of some trolls and troll moderators

--ImageRemoved--

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Glock
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Re: Coming down from my Ivory Tower

Postby Glock » Fri Jul 08, 2011 7:59 pm

Oh, people will get jobs. Will people get jobs good enough to justify three years lost and $200k in non-discharable debt from their TTT? Different question entirely.

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Re: Coming down from my Ivory Tower

Postby Zazelmaf » Fri Jul 08, 2011 8:03 pm

I realized I had nothing to worry about when I started reading the flawed logic of T14 Paradise. Conspiracy theories have been around since the beginning of time, and many people are either scaring themselves into doing well, or just buying the logic of those who don't know.

Work hard, do your best, and even from a TTTT you can find a good job.




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