Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

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dresden doll
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Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby dresden doll » Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:01 pm

bceagles182 wrote:I am extremely skeptical that any firm adjusts its billable rates for attorneys that have learning disabilities. Give me a break.


You apparently think that 1 hour in real time = 1 billable hour. This is patently wrong, but you can carry on as you wish.

As for the rest of your argument, partners can easily select the more efficient of associates for extremely time sensitive tasks. The fact of the matter is that people with disabilities can and do just fine in the real world and that your gripe really boils down to annoyance over the possibility that leveling the playing the field will allow them to outperform you on LS exams.

teo
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Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby teo » Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:06 pm

I got thumped in the head by a grenade, so now I have a bit of a struggle at times with things like empathy, patience,etc. One thing I have noted is that my math centers and drastically been reduced in efficacy. I bet if I cried and whined I could get some extra time on a test, but I am gonna give it a go first.

06162014123
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Postby 06162014123 » Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:07 pm

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Last edited by 06162014123 on Sun Jun 08, 2014 10:56 am, edited 2 times in total.

bmore
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Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby bmore » Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:22 pm

bceagles182 wrote:
bmore wrote:Bravo Fat Duck.!! I agree with accomodations. However there are some that take advantage. For ex. a classmate of mine had an untimed SAT. He said he finished in close to regulation time and then spent the rest of the time going over it again and again until he felt great about it. That is not how the test is designed. He did not need all that time to complete the test. I guess I feel that when you get to the point where you feel the playing field has been leveled, you should not proceed. Does that make sense?



You have an incredibly naive faith in humanity.



Naw, I know better. sigh... Just how I feel. I had health issues as a toddler and had casts on my legs. Mom had a temp handicap parking pass. If there was a spot open close to the front of the lot she would take it and leave the HP open for someone in worse shape. Guess we feel just cause you can, doesn't mean you should.

09042014
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Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby 09042014 » Wed Jun 29, 2011 12:27 pm

ADHD isn't a disability, and courts are split on that fact, but several recent cases pretty much say it has to be severe and not able to be treated by medication. Is it a disorder? Sure, but so is Myopia. If I were a law school, I wouldn't give ADHD accommodations to anyone who didn't get them on the LSAT.

I have no problem with someone with a true disability getting extra time. In fact, I'd demand it. IMO they should be given unlimited time and just have it graded off the curve (as to not fuck either the student or the rest of the class).

And lets not pretend that anyone with access to WedMD can't go get a false positive test at the doctors office and get a diagnosis for ADHD.

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ChiCity22
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Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby ChiCity22 » Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:19 pm

IMO If you have a serious learning disability, either overcome it or find another profession that isn't as intellectually intensive.

Its like a kid with a physical disability on a basketball team getting 5 free throws.

09042014
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Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby 09042014 » Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:35 pm

ChiCity22 wrote:IMO If you have a serious learning disability, either overcome it or find another profession that isn't as intellectually intensive.

Its like a kid with a physical disability on a basketball team getting 5 free throws.


I strongly disagree. Law exams are time crunched beyond all reason. In the real world someone could easily make up their disability by extra effort, but on a time crunched exam where writing less than 1K words an hour = below median they can't.

Nobody does law related work at the pace law exams are held.

But I also disagree that ADHD is a seriously learning disability.

rangers0412
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Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby rangers0412 » Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:42 pm

I can understand the extra help in elementary, high school, and even undergrad to an extent, as it gives everyone an opportunity to get their foot in the door when before they may not have had a chance. But extra accomodations in law school is like walking them through it. Eventually they are going to have to do things themselves.

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fatduck
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Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby fatduck » Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:44 pm

rangers0412 wrote:I can understand the extra help in elementary, high school, and even undergrad to an extent, as it gives everyone an opportunity to get their foot in the door when before they may not have had a chance. But extra accomodations in law school is like walking them through it. Eventually they are going to have to do things themselves.

this is like saying people in wheelchairs should really have figured out how to get up stairs by the time they're adults. i'm pretty sure people with ADHD are not the ones getting extra exam time. i know they don't at my school.

bartleby
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Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby bartleby » Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:51 pm

i don't think it's fair. who doesn't have ADHD these days...

all my friends know one certain doctor (i'm sure there are more) who loves giving people adderall or whatever the new ADHD drug is called because the drs get kickbacks from the pharm companies. it can be a dirty biz.

do the profs still grade it blindly though? or do they get a pile of "special' tests.

oh well, fuck.

luthersloan
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Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby luthersloan » Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:52 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
ChiCity22 wrote:IMO If you have a serious learning disability, either overcome it or find another profession that isn't as intellectually intensive.

Its like a kid with a physical disability on a basketball team getting 5 free throws.


I strongly disagree. Law exams are time crunched beyond all reason. In the real world someone could easily make up their disability by extra effort, but on a time crunched exam where writing less than 1K words an hour = below median they can't.

Nobody does law related work at the pace law exams are held.

But I also disagree that ADHD is a seriously learning disability.



But that does not answer the core question, after all someone with poor grades because of lack of ablility might be able to make up for it by putting in more effort in the real world, but we do not know if they will or not. It seems the only way the it would make sense to give extra time is one could be sure that the person with the LD would in fact put in a greater level of effort (and that their doing so would be fesable). Think about it this way, if a firm has a choice it would rather hire those who will be more efficent, rather then less efficent, because at bottom your cost to the firm is a fixed sum (or very close to one) but your revenue generation (i.e. number of hours billed, which they cannot really gross up because you are slower) is not. Perhaps the ideal model would be to require the school to disclose the speical accomidation, that would provide more accurate data then the grade with the speical time and no explination, but also possible be more informative then the grade without the exception, since it might well be the case than you can do the work if given the time.

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bk1
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Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby bk1 » Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:55 pm

Bronte wrote:I'm not necessarily against the policy, but I think the empathy argument is a little misguided. What's the difference between providing extra time to someone with ADHD and providing extra time to someone who is innately less intelligence (e.g., has a lower IQ)? Most of our traits are innate and out of our control, yet most systems are still merit-based. In short, life isn't fair.

The world isn't as much a meritocracy as we like to think it is (my favorite example being wealth distribution).

rangers0412
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Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby rangers0412 » Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:55 pm

I dont agree with the analogy at all. Being able to move around, which is a necesity to live for the most part, and the ability to get extra time at a professional school that is not for everyone, regardless of disability; are two completely different and incomparable things.

punctuation is probably wrong but meh

jarofsoup
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Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby jarofsoup » Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:57 pm

This is super retarded. I proctored final exams at law schools and they often double book exam times so your class mates have to have an exam at a different time because they have classes with the same exam time.

Some do have accommodations. Maybe your class mate is a bit blind or something who knows...

slacker
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Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby slacker » Wed Jun 29, 2011 2:58 pm

Not a law student (yet) but my problem with this throughout my education has been that people without disabilities are generally pressed for time and people given accommodations are given enough time (sometimes an untimed test) so that that is never a problem. Time management is generally supposed to be a factor in test taking. At least I assume it is based on the amount of time given to most students.

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eandy
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Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby eandy » Wed Jun 29, 2011 3:06 pm

I know someone at a different school than the one I attend who got extra time and openly told people that he took a lot of outlines into the exam and used the extra time to basically avoid having to learn the material--he had plenty of time to thumb through the several outlines he brought(that he didn't write himself). :roll: Everyone loved it when he made good grades, I'm sure.

There is no easy way to regulate who has a disability and who doesn't, who should get extra time and who shouldn't. Honestly, it sucks when people abuse the system, but for the people who do need the accommodation, it is worth it to let the few who abuse it get through the cracks.

Suck it up.

09042014
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Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby 09042014 » Wed Jun 29, 2011 3:11 pm

eandy wrote:I know someone at a different school than the one I attend who got extra time and openly told people that he took a lot of outlines into the exam and used the extra time to basically avoid having to learn the material--he had plenty of time to thumb through the several outlines he brought(that he didn't write himself). :roll: Everyone loved it when he made good grades, I'm sure.

There is no easy way to regulate who has a disability and who doesn't, who should get extra time and who shouldn't. Honestly, it sucks when people abuse the system, but for the people who do need the accommodation, it is worth it to let the few who abuse it get through the cracks.

Suck it up.


I really doubt that strategy worked very well. You won't issue spot for shit if you don't know what to look for.

nymario
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Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby nymario » Wed Jun 29, 2011 3:36 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
ChiCity22 wrote:IMO If you have a serious learning disability, either overcome it or find another profession that isn't as intellectually intensive.

Its like a kid with a physical disability on a basketball team getting 5 free throws.


I strongly disagree. Law exams are time crunched beyond all reason. In the real world someone could easily make up their disability by extra effort, but on a time crunched exam where writing less than 1K words an hour = below median they can't.

Nobody does law related work at the pace law exams are held.

But I also disagree that ADHD is a seriously learning disability.


The whole thing is that a MAJOR point of the law school exam structure is to test under pressure. Those who take it in the time limit are graded in the context of that time pressure. It simply isn't fair to remove that axis of the equation.

You could presumably figure out an amount of "handicap" to give to each student to account for the extra time they need. However, there's no normalization of this quantity to achieve a fair result. The line is arbitrarily moved some amount, which defeats the professor's carefully (one would hope) constructed environment.

In golf or bowling, you develop a handicap based on past performance, and it fluctuates. In Law School, you're giving a handicap based on mere speculation. Also, at the highest level of golf or bowling, you don't get to have a handicap.

My analogy is as follows: You are disadvantaged at golf because you can hit the ball only 90% as far as normal golfers, due to a muscular disability. This is measurable, and you'll receive a handicap that accounts for this -- maybe it costs you 3 strokes every 18 holes, perhaps calculated by computer models of some sort. Anything else (like you simply suck, poor stroke, bad putting touch) comes into your handicap too, but since it's not disability related, we're not including it here (no extra time for just being "dumb" in law school). That's fine for golf, because we calculated it intelligibly.

This does NOT follow for law school. In law school, we decide that any golfer that has a muscular disability that costs you 3 strokes or more (sorry ADHD, that's 1 stroke and doesn't qualify) will receive a 5 stroke handicap on the exam (an extra 2 hours, for example). the -3 golfers are getting 2 free strokes that they don't deserve. Maybe the 5 is fair for others, but it's far to arbitrary and too susceptible to prejudicing the scratch golfers.

Solution is simple -- accommodated golfers cannot be used to construct the curve. We can figure out what their score is, but it shouldn't be read as anything other than an approximation, as if winning skins with buddies. You golfed an 87 at Pebble Beach? Great -- With your 18 handicap, you shot a 69 in the US Open -- but you're not getting a trophy, or knocking Tiger any further down the money list.

Furthermore, the GPA of students afforded these accommodations should not be used in fashioning class rank. After ranks are determined, they certainly may indicate where they would have fallen. But it's an insult to the structure of the time limited examination that an administrator could arbitrarily control for learning disabilities without overcompensating at times.
Last edited by nymario on Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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fatduck
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Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby fatduck » Wed Jun 29, 2011 3:37 pm

do we have any evidence beyond the assertion of one michigan 1L that students with ADHD get extra time on exams?

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eandy
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Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby eandy » Wed Jun 29, 2011 3:55 pm

fatduck wrote:do we have any evidence beyond the assertion of one michigan 1L that students with ADHD get extra time on exams?

I know someone at my school who does for ADHD. He is MEGA ADHD, though, if that makes any difference to anyone.

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shepdawg
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Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby shepdawg » Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:10 pm

One of the dumbest people I've ever met had a D- average after 1st semester, because he took the exams with the rest of the class. He was afraid of getting kicked out, so he went to a doctor and complained he had ADHD. He was able to get 3 extra hours on every exam, and get extra time on his appellate brief for 2nd semester. He ended up doing well enough to bring his average up to C+.

One of the smartest people I've met "got" ADHD during undergrad. He got extra time all exams and ended up #1 in the class.

Giddy-Up
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Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby Giddy-Up » Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:11 pm

I know someone at my school who does for ADHD. He is MEGA ADHD, though, if that makes any difference to anyone.


It makes a difference to me. It makes me think of a transformer with ADHD.

AnyRandChangedmylife
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Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby AnyRandChangedmylife » Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:16 pm

I honestly thought they slept in, skipped, forgot, or chicken'd out.

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Moxie
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Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby Moxie » Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:17 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
ChiCity22 wrote:IMO If you have a serious learning disability, either overcome it or find another profession that isn't as intellectually intensive.

Its like a kid with a physical disability on a basketball team getting 5 free throws.


I strongly disagree. Law exams are time crunched beyond all reason. In the real world someone could easily make up their disability by extra effort, but on a time crunched exam where writing less than 1K words an hour = below median they can't.

Nobody does law related work at the pace law exams are held.

But I also disagree that ADHD is a seriously learning disability.


+1 to DF's post. I have a limited amount of space in my brain to care about things, and other students getting extended exam times is not something I concern myself with.

Skyhook
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Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby Skyhook » Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:33 pm

I doubt very much that a majority of law professors have any background in testing or educational theory.

Question the validity of the test.
What is it designed to show and what does it actually show?
Why is time an important factor?
How does the test relate to the professional world, given that law school is a professional school?
Would students with disabilities get accommodations in the professional world?

You get stressed in a testing situation? Well, you'd get stressed in the outside world.
At some point you need to show you can do the job.

Now, with a physical disability such as a muscular problem that inhibits your ability to write/type, accommodations are reasonable because this could be overcome with dictation software.

My feeling is that if a test is designed correctly no accommodations are needed.




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