Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

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nymario
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Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby nymario » Fri Jul 01, 2011 12:00 pm

I would like to point out here that the opposing side has reduced their arguments to:

1. It is not provable that Law Review has any appreciable positive benefits on career prospects, therefore we should treat the assumption that it does as faulty. (confusion of an assumption/axiom with an assertion of fact)

2. Even if these benefits existed, very few people are affected by this, and their interest is inferior to those who stand to gain.

The others reasonably argue that law school testing is flawed. This is a more plausible argument and one which I don't choose to further contest. I do think it is a debatable point, but it is one where I have no experience or expertise to enter the discussion, so I concede it for the purpose of this thread.

09042014
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Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby 09042014 » Fri Jul 01, 2011 12:05 pm

nymario wrote:I would like to point out here that the opposing side has reduced their arguments to:

1. It is not provable that Law Review has any appreciable positive benefits on career prospects, therefore we should treat the assumption that it does as faulty. (confusion of an assumption/axiom with an assertion of fact)

2. Even if these benefits existed, very few people are affected by this, and their interest is inferior to those who stand to gain.

The others reasonably argue that law school testing is flawed. This is a more plausible argument and one which I don't choose to further contest. I do think it is a debatable point, but it is one where I have no experience or expertise to enter the discussion, so I concede it for the purpose of this thread.


I speak for all when I say that TTT students shouldn't summarize our arguments.

nymario
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Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby nymario » Fri Jul 01, 2011 12:06 pm

Agreed. I guess all of T1 outside of the T14 is TTT now, fair enough.

There are many many intelligent people who make very persuasive arguments on both sides of this issue. I happen to believe that the most recent arguments are not among them. Instead they (the good arguments) include the structure of the exams, the absolute reliance on grades that many employers live by and just other general discussions on the theory of accommodation. When people address those, they get thoughtful debate.

On the other hand, there is absolutely nothing to gain from attacking the person who presents one side. There is also no point in selectively avoiding very persuasive responses and simply attacking the opposing side on a generalized principle. I don't care if you're EIC at YLJ -- if you argue that way, you don't deserve any respect.

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birdlaw117
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Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby birdlaw117 » Fri Jul 01, 2011 3:29 pm

Think of it this way: If your school happens to not give an accommodation to a disabled student who deserved it, they would be forced to settle for a fairly substantial sum of money. The loss of a seven-figure sum by the school would probably impact a single student's job search to a greater extent than the loss of a single ranking (or 5% increment).

In conclusion: Maybe you should thank your school for being extra-generous with their accommodations, thereby increasing your job prospects :wink:

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Helmholtz
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Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby Helmholtz » Fri Jul 01, 2011 3:32 pm

Can a university really be sued by somebody with ADD if the school doesn't give the student extra time?

I don't really want to get involved in a big debate, but when there are only fifty people in your class, five people can get As according to the curve, and multiple people get extra time and subsequently ace the test........it annoys me.

firemed
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Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby firemed » Fri Jul 01, 2011 3:36 pm

BruceWayne wrote:It bothered me a lot more once I realized that many of the same people are the one's getting A's and A+s.



If this is really true I am going to get myself an ADD diagnosis next week.

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Mickey Quicknumbers
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Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby Mickey Quicknumbers » Fri Jul 01, 2011 3:39 pm

firemed wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:It bothered me a lot more once I realized that many of the same people are the one's getting A's and A+s.



If this is really true I am going to get myself an ADD diagnosis next week.

LOL I have a diagnosis for ADD, OCD, Tourette Syndrome and had stomach ulcers when I took the exam. I think I missed an opportunity there.

firemed
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Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby firemed » Fri Jul 01, 2011 3:50 pm

Mickey Quicknumbers wrote:
firemed wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:It bothered me a lot more once I realized that many of the same people are the one's getting A's and A+s.



If this is really true I am going to get myself an ADD diagnosis next week.

LOL I have a diagnosis for ADD, OCD, Tourette Syndrome and had stomach ulcers when I took the exam. I think I missed an opportunity there.


Slacker.

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birdlaw117
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Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby birdlaw117 » Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:15 pm

Helmholtz wrote:Can a university really be sued by somebody with ADD if the school doesn't give the student extra time?

I don't really want to get involved in a big debate, but when there are only fifty people in your class, five people can get As according to the curve, and multiple people get extra time and subsequently ace the test........it annoys me.

I wouldn't think ADD, but there are other disabilities being discussed ITT. I don't like when people abuse the system, that's very annoying. But I do think there are definitely situations where accommodations should be made. It's a touchy subject, but I don't think a school would be making a wise business decision to push the issue of allowing fewer accommodations and risking lawsuits versus giving a few unnecessary accommodations but protecting themselves from that.

But yeah, I understand the annoyance, and I suspect I will feel that way as well. But at some point you have to pick your battles, and this one just isn't worth it.

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Helmholtz
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Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby Helmholtz » Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:21 pm

birdlaw117 wrote:But yeah, I understand the annoyance, and I suspect I will feel that way as well. But at some point you have to pick your battles, and this one just isn't worth it.


Yeah, I'm not going to go try to battle over this or anything, but when you're fighting for the chance to get a well-paying job after graduation and others are getting a serious advantage on the curve because of a "disability," it becomes something you personally may worry about. I just don't understand. We're all going out and competing for the same jobs. Yeah, the person with the "disability" might be getting time and a half, but wtf is going to happen when the partners are wanting him to bill 2500 hrs/yr? Is he going to try to argue for 1750 because he's "disabled"? Is he going to bill the 2500 hrs/yr but argue that the hours shouldn't have to have been as productive as others at the firm?

09042014
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Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby 09042014 » Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:27 pm

Helmholtz wrote:
birdlaw117 wrote:But yeah, I understand the annoyance, and I suspect I will feel that way as well. But at some point you have to pick your battles, and this one just isn't worth it.


Yeah, I'm not going to go try to battle over this or anything, but when you're fighting for the chance to get a well-paying job after graduation and others are getting a serious advantage on the curve because of a "disability," it becomes something you personally may worry about. I just don't understand. We're all going out and competing for the same jobs. Yeah, the person with the "disability" might be getting time and a half, but wtf is going to happen when the partners are wanting him to bill 2500 hrs/yr? Is he going to try to argue for 1750 because he's "disabled"? Is he going to bill the 2500 hrs/yr but argue that the hours shouldn't have to have been as productive as others at the firm?


Or C he'll bill 2100 like everyone else and nobody will care if he was less productive because they get DAT Cash for his hours anyway?

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birdlaw117
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Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby birdlaw117 » Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:29 pm

Helmholtz wrote:
birdlaw117 wrote:But yeah, I understand the annoyance, and I suspect I will feel that way as well. But at some point you have to pick your battles, and this one just isn't worth it.


Yeah, I'm not going to go try to battle over this or anything, but when you're fighting for the chance to get a well-paying job after graduation and others are getting a serious advantage on the curve because of a "disability," it becomes something you personally may worry about. I just don't understand. We're all going out and competing for the same jobs. Yeah, the person with the "disability" might be getting time and a half, but wtf is going to happen when the partners are wanting him to bill 2500 hrs/yr? Is he going to try to argue for 1750 because he's "disabled"? Is he going to bill the 2500 hrs/yr but argue that the hours shouldn't have to have been as productive as others at the firm?

Exactly. But at the same time, you don't want to take away potential job opportunities from those who have the ability to be as productive in certain areas despite their disability. The issue is far too complicated for a blanket policy to be effective for every case. You can either add a whole bunch of bureaucracy to the system, or accept the inherent problems with the current one. Either way, I don't think there is a solid option.

Also, for those who were calling for a different testing format, there is still always the possibility for accommodations being needed. If the testing format changes to a take-home test or all day test, the accommodations can't go away if they are deemed necessary. That's just the way the law is.

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birdlaw117
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Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby birdlaw117 » Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:31 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:
birdlaw117 wrote:But yeah, I understand the annoyance, and I suspect I will feel that way as well. But at some point you have to pick your battles, and this one just isn't worth it.


Yeah, I'm not going to go try to battle over this or anything, but when you're fighting for the chance to get a well-paying job after graduation and others are getting a serious advantage on the curve because of a "disability," it becomes something you personally may worry about. I just don't understand. We're all going out and competing for the same jobs. Yeah, the person with the "disability" might be getting time and a half, but wtf is going to happen when the partners are wanting him to bill 2500 hrs/yr? Is he going to try to argue for 1750 because he's "disabled"? Is he going to bill the 2500 hrs/yr but argue that the hours shouldn't have to have been as productive as others at the firm?


Or C he'll bill 2100 like everyone else and nobody will care if he was less productive because they get DAT Cash for his hours anyway?

Yeah, those clients probably won't care... And they'll definitely continue to use the same firm that takes 1.5 times the hours to complete the same work as others... :wink:

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fatduck
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Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby fatduck » Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:41 pm

i'm getting the impression that a lot of people in this thread fundamentally disagree with the basic tenets of the ADA/ADAAA. interesting.

edit: i should note that i don't think ADD is a disability, and i seriously doubt that testing accommodations for ADD/ADHD are widespread, except perhaps in extreme cases.
Last edited by fatduck on Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

firemed
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Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby firemed » Fri Jul 01, 2011 4:56 pm

fatduck wrote:i'm getting the impression that a lot of people in this thread fundamentally disagree with the basic tenets of the ADA/ADAAA. interesting.


I agree with the fundamental tenets. Hell, I even support accomidation for testing ( a friend of mine needed accomidation and still became- to the best of my knowledge- a perfectly good attorney)... but I also think that accomidation can go too far. If you have no arms and want to be a firefighter... that just isn't realistic. Ditto for people who have dyslexia and want to be lawyers. 80+% of the damn job involves reading and writing incredibly dense boring stuff (as far as I can tell).

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Heartford
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Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby Heartford » Fri Jul 01, 2011 5:10 pm

The crappy thing is that, much like the LSAT, pretty much the most difficult thing about law school exams is the time limit. It's not like those of us without disabilities are breezing through the 3 hour exam at a leisurely pace- the whole damn point is that you have a limited amount of time to process a shitload of information. If you take away the time factor, then you just have to process a shitload of information, and anybody can do that. For this reason I think that the format of law school exams should change- there should be no time limit. If everyone is not constrained by time, then those with learning/processing disabilities should be able to take the same test, under the same conditions, as everyone else.

Kaves
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Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby Kaves » Fri Jul 01, 2011 5:40 pm

Here is an interesting question for people.

Would you game the system and get 3 extra hours if you could and you knew it would add 5% to your class rank?

09042014
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Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby 09042014 » Fri Jul 01, 2011 5:46 pm

Kaves wrote:Here is an interesting question for people.

Would you game the system and get 3 extra hours if you could and you knew it would add 5% to your class rank?


3 extra hours would only add 5% if you were already top 6%.

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BriaTharen
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Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby BriaTharen » Fri Jul 01, 2011 6:02 pm

birdlaw117 wrote:
Helmholtz wrote:Can a university really be sued by somebody with ADD if the school doesn't give the student extra time?

I don't really want to get involved in a big debate, but when there are only fifty people in your class, five people can get As according to the curve, and multiple people get extra time and subsequently ace the test........it annoys me.

I wouldn't think ADD, but there are other disabilities being discussed ITT. I don't like when people abuse the system, that's very annoying. But I do think there are definitely situations where accommodations should be made. It's a touchy subject, but I don't think a school would be making a wise business decision to push the issue of allowing fewer accommodations and risking lawsuits versus giving a few unnecessary accommodations but protecting themselves from that.

But yeah, I understand the annoyance, and I suspect I will feel that way as well. But at some point you have to pick your battles, and this one just isn't worth it.


I agree wholeheartedly that there are situations where extra time is completely appropriate. 1-2 people my year have physical disabilities that make their extra time necessary. There are also a couple people with severe ADD/ADHD that need the extra time. But really, the "jump" in the number of people that take tests without accommodations to those who take it with going from the fall to the spring semester is really telling.

People who game the system are really annoying not only for people who don't take accommodated time, but for the actually need the time. There are people who don't take the time that the legitimately deserve because they don't want the stigma.
But maybe there is some kind of social commentary to be made in all of this. Almost everyone that struts into law school thinks they are going to be hot shit. But there is a reason why it's called the "top" 10%-- someone has to be in the other 90%. So two options- (1) either accept that you are not top 10% and see if there is anything study wise you can do differently, or (2) OMG I MUST BE DISABLED! Maybe not exactly like that, but whatever.

Like I said before, I would have absolutely no problem with it whatsoever if they reported accommodated testing on your transcript like they do the LSAT. Maybe the same people would keep the accommodation, but who knows. But maybe a notation on the transcript would make others that are going to the system think twice since there is now documentation that employers can see.

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Heartford
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Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby Heartford » Fri Jul 01, 2011 6:31 pm

Kaves wrote:Here is an interesting question for people.

Would you game the system and get 3 extra hours if you could and you knew it would add 5% to your class rank?


This question is only interesting because it shows how the system, not the participants, is really the problem. When facebook exposes all of your personal data, you don't get upset at the individual identity thieves in Nigeria- you get upset at facebook. Of course most people will game the system to improve their lot, which is why the system should be made less game-able.

bigtttymer
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Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby bigtttymer » Fri Jul 01, 2011 6:53 pm

.

nymario
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Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby nymario » Fri Jul 01, 2011 7:00 pm

I am a little reluctant to post this because I think everyone can agree that the main problem everyone has is abuse. It is especially insidious for law school, because the people who don't get exactly what they want are the most likely to try to sue the pants off their school. Have a look at Spychalsky v. Sullivan (2003 WL 22071602).

In that case, a St. Johns law school grad received every accommodation he asked for. He had extra time (time and a half). He also had professors instructed not to consider spelling errors grading his examinations. The only thing he didn't get was a waiver of his Tax requirement. He was denied full participation in educational activities because a requirement wasn't waived for him (though he received his usual accommodations when he sat for that examination). In his complaint, he argues that he was discriminated against because he had to start exams an hour and a half early. He got what he wanted, but he included the fact that he had to get up earlier (rather than get to stay later) as part of the basis for his lawsuit. He also complained that he had difficulty locating the rooms assigned for his exam (though he never alleged he was at all late for an exam because of it). He complained that when he screwed up and filled out two scantron sheets with 100 answers each instead of one sheet with all 200, a secretary transcribed his answers from the second sheet to the first sheet for him, and he wasn't allowed to go back and check his work. The suit, rightfully, was tossed out.

So I do want to apologize to the people who are genuinely and reasonably upset at the hostile attitudes that some of us have towards accommodations. I wanted to share this because everyone should understand that this hostility is not without reasonable foundation.

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Bronte
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Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby Bronte » Fri Jul 01, 2011 7:51 pm

firemed wrote:
fatduck wrote:i'm getting the impression that a lot of people in this thread fundamentally disagree with the basic tenets of the ADA/ADAAA. interesting.


I agree with the fundamental tenets. Hell, I even support accomidation for testing ( a friend of mine needed accomidation and still became- to the best of my knowledge- a perfectly good attorney)... but I also think that accomidation can go too far. If you have no arms and want to be a firefighter... that just isn't realistic. Ditto for people who have dyslexia and want to be lawyers. 80+% of the damn job involves reading and writing incredibly dense boring stuff (as far as I can tell).


David Boies has dyslexia. I have a feeling he didn't get extra time though. He definitely didn't cop to it in his memoirs.

delusional
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Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby delusional » Fri Jul 01, 2011 7:55 pm

Reading this topic has been fun. Most of what I feel on the subject has already been mentioned by others, but there are two things that struck me, one one each side of the coin.

1. Accommodated testing is sketch to me because the accommodation doesn't directly address the disability, which opens it to abuse. If a guy is vision-impaired, and someone reads the question, that's a reasonable accommodation. If a guy has one leg, and therefore gets an extra two hours, well, that's exactly the type of benefit you'd offer if "not as qualified" was a disability. Does extra time negate the ADHD? The people I know who are ADHD would just be fidgeting, distracted, etc. for an extra couple hours, while filling in proportionally greater amounts. I don't know the answer for people with genuine ADHD, etc. but unless the accommodation directly addresses the disability, I think it's misguided.

2. The anal retentive anxiety about this is typical TLS. Yes, there are theoretical consequences for able test takers, but in order to have actual real world consequences, you'd need to have a pretty perfect storm. Law review may be important, top 10%, above median, etc. But none of them, on their own, are going to take a guy from Wachtell to unemployment.

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Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby Kobe_Teeth » Fri Jul 01, 2011 8:05 pm

BruceWayne wrote:It bothered me a lot more once I realized that many of the same people are the one's getting A's and A+s.


I've noticed this too.

Also want to add, I believe learning disabilities exist. However, I think we do a shit job diagnosing them. I think a sizable portion of the people who get extra time don't deserve it. I know at least 4 people at my school who get meds from prescriptions written by close or intermediate family members. 1 of them gets extra time on exams. The other 3 who don't are quite open about the fact that they don't really need it. What's worse is that they share their meds with other people.

I read about 3 pages of this thread. Sorry if I missed similar examples.




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