Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

(Study Tips, Dealing With Stress, Maintaining a Social Life, Financial Aid, Internships, Bar Exam, Careers in Law . . . )
Rule11
Posts: 160
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2008 2:25 pm

Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby Rule11 » Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:30 am

Personally, I don't really care about test accommodations too much. Few people get them, from what I can tell.

I just find myself puzzled, however, at the portrayal of big law practice by several posters in this thread. Those who said that law school exams are nothing like big law--are you currently working in big law? Have you ever (summering emphatically does not count)?

Working under intense pressure, both in terms of time and otherwise, is a big part of the big law lifestyle. Your ability to perform under those conditions is a major component of your success in the workplace. Biglaw these days is generally not a slow grind at all. Many firms are understaffed, particularly at the junior levels. I don't know anybody at a large firm who spends his or her days doing doc review, or any other task that I would consider mindless, or that would otherwise not be affected by the attorney's attention level, ability to read quickly, or ability to think creatively and incisively under time constraints. That's just not really how it works anymore, for the most part. Clients don't want to pay $350 an hour for a doc reviewer from a big firm, when they can get the same service and pay a fraction of that cost for contract attorneys (who are, incidentally, often more experienced anyway).

It may be that accommodations are worth it, because some "disabled" students who would nonetheless flourish in legal practice would be left behind without such accommodations (the guy with typing problems is perhaps the most likely such candidate in this thread). But it is silly to pretend that, once you get to a firm, the skills tested by law school exams are no longer relevant. The abilities to quickly analyze novel problems, to retain and to synthesize large amounts of relevant information, and finally to articulate your thoughts quickly are ALL critical components of success in any area of legal practice.

09042014
Posts: 18282
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:47 pm

Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby 09042014 » Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:44 am

Rule11 wrote:Personally, I don't really care about test accommodations too much. Few people get them, from what I can tell.

I just find myself puzzled, however, at the portrayal of big law practice by several posters in this thread. Those who said that law school exams are nothing like big law--are you currently working in big law? Have you ever (summering emphatically does not count)?

Working under intense pressure, both in terms of time and otherwise, is a big part of the big law lifestyle. Your ability to perform under those conditions is a major component of your success in the workplace. Biglaw these days is generally not a slow grind at all. Many firms are understaffed, particularly at the junior levels. I don't know anybody at a large firm who spends his or her days doing doc review, or any other task that I would consider mindless, or that would otherwise not be affected by the attorney's attention level, ability to read quickly, or ability to think creatively and incisively under time constraints. That's just not really how it works anymore, for the most part. Clients don't want to pay $350 an hour for a doc reviewer from a big firm, when they can get the same service and pay a fraction of that cost for contract attorneys (who are, incidentally, often more experienced anyway).

It may be that accommodations are worth it, because some "disabled" students who would nonetheless flourish in legal practice would be left behind without such accommodations (the guy with typing problems is perhaps the most likely such candidate in this thread). But it is silly to pretend that, once you get to a firm, the skills tested by law school exams are no longer relevant. The abilities to quickly analyze novel problems, to retain and to synthesize large amounts of relevant information, and finally to articulate your thoughts quickly are ALL critical components of success in any area of legal practice.


But you'd never write a 20 page brief in 3 hours without doing any sort of research or break to think about it.

nymario
Posts: 239
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:57 pm

Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby nymario » Thu Jun 30, 2011 11:49 am

Skyhook wrote:So your problem is with the schools' and instructors' inability to come up with a suitable testing procedure.
So far no-one has countered my claim that these people do not have any real background in educational and testing theory. "Because this is the way I learned it so it must be the right way..." - I call bullshit.
***
Time constraints are arbitrary - the design of the law school exam is the problem.
***
Heard this type of statement before and I don't believe it.
Why don't you actually think about this carefully and see where the problems really are.
***
And think about this - testing and grading policies can be changed. Why not try to get fairer tests where so called special accommodations become moot?

nymario wrote:Better solutions? All take home exams?


In your vitriol, you completely ignore the fact that I'm asserting that take home exams solve your problems and mine. I strongly agree with you that the structure of the testing system is flawed. I support take home exams to level the playing field. I think time-concession is an inferior method of solving the problem (that we both acknowledge exists). Explain to my why your concerns are NOT vitiated by take home exams? (or perhaps, all day in class exams that are designed not to test time pressure)

Either time-pressure testing is valid and concessions are unfair (which I don't agree with) or time-pressure testing is invalid and you need to tell me why take home exams don't solve your problem with less chance of harm.

Skyhook
Posts: 322
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:30 am

Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby Skyhook » Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:08 pm

nymario wrote:
Skyhook wrote:So your problem is with the schools' and instructors' inability to come up with a suitable testing procedure.
So far no-one has countered my claim that these people do not have any real background in educational and testing theory. "Because this is the way I learned it so it must be the right way..." - I call bullshit.
***
Time constraints are arbitrary - the design of the law school exam is the problem.
***
Heard this type of statement before and I don't believe it.
Why don't you actually think about this carefully and see where the problems really are.
***
And think about this - testing and grading policies can be changed. Why not try to get fairer tests where so called special accommodations become moot?

nymario wrote:Better solutions? All take home exams?


In your vitriol, you completely ignore the fact that I'm asserting that take home exams solve your problems and mine. I strongly agree with you that the structure of the testing system is flawed. I support take home exams to level the playing field. I think time-concession is an inferior method of solving the problem (that we both acknowledge exists). Explain to my why your concerns are NOT vitiated by take home exams? (or perhaps, all day in class exams that are designed not to test time pressure)

Either time-pressure testing is valid and concessions are unfair (which I don't agree with) or time-pressure testing is invalid and you need to tell me why take home exams don't solve your problem with less chance of harm.


You misrepresent what you posted!
Better solutuons? All take home exams? Blah Blah Blah?
I'm all for giving equal op. However....
What were you emphasizing in that paragraph?

You have presented several strawmen and the tone of your posts is one of NO accommodations, just deal with it.
Did you question the examination type?
Have you bothered to read what I wrote?

nymario
Posts: 239
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:57 pm

Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby nymario » Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:09 pm

bk1 wrote:
nymario wrote:No, people *do* have a problem with it. Law School is a zero sum game. Giving some students a boost is necessarily at the expense of the people that they displace.

You act like the number of people who get accommodations is actually significant enough to have a non-marginal effect on your job hunt (hint: it's not).


Wrong. First, I said that it hasn't affected me personally.

Second, and most importantly, if the premise holds that it is possible that an accommodated student will receive a boost over some number of students and that this boost is *ever* overcompensating for the disability, then it necessarily holds that some number of students will be ranked lower than they otherwise would have been. That usually (but not always) means that a student who was previously top x% becomes top x+n% (where n is the interval to the next ranking breakdown). You say it is negligible -- tell that to the student who moved from the student who was 39/399 (top 9.7%-> 10% on the resume) to 40/399 (top 10.02%, aka top 15% on their resume), especially at schools that do not rank individually. That is absolutely the difference between a job and no job at a lot of schools. It's certainly the difference between grading on at my school and having to try to write on for a handful of slots.

This has a negligible chance of happening to any given student, and certainly didn't happen to me in my 1L year. But it has a decidedly non-negligible chance of happening to some students.

nymario
Posts: 239
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:57 pm

Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby nymario » Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:13 pm

Skyhook wrote:
nymario wrote:Either time-pressure testing is valid and concessions are unfair (which I don't agree with) or time-pressure testing is invalid and you need to tell me why take home exams don't solve your problem with less chance of harm.


You misrepresent what you posted!
Better solutuons? All take home exams? Blah Blah Blah?
I'm all for giving equal op. However....
What were you emphasizing in that paragraph?

You have presented several strawmen and the tone of your posts is one of NO accommodations, just deal with it.
Did you question the examination type?
Have you bothered to read what I wrote?


I wrote a lot. Much of it becomes irrelevant under the solution I propose. That is that the best solution is take home exams. Tell me why that's not right, rather than re-telling me what you think I had to say.

I agree that the tone of my post is no accommodations. I explicitly stated that much and gave reasons for my position. You are simply repeating a logical step in my argument. I still say no accommodations because there is a possibility of prejudice and that a better solution exists.

I understand that you dispute my argument that accommodations can be prejudicial (despite a legion of people saying it is subject to abuse and my own assertion that it is impossibly difficult to arrive at a fair quantification) -- assuming that we agree to disagree on that portion of the argument, can you possibly move on to a proposed solution and explain why that doesn't give you everything you want?

Rule11
Posts: 160
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2008 2:25 pm

Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby Rule11 » Thu Jun 30, 2011 12:50 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Rule11 wrote:Personally, I don't really care about test accommodations too much. Few people get them, from what I can tell.

I just find myself puzzled, however, at the portrayal of big law practice by several posters in this thread. Those who said that law school exams are nothing like big law--are you currently working in big law? Have you ever (summering emphatically does not count)?

Working under intense pressure, both in terms of time and otherwise, is a big part of the big law lifestyle. Your ability to perform under those conditions is a major component of your success in the workplace. Biglaw these days is generally not a slow grind at all. Many firms are understaffed, particularly at the junior levels. I don't know anybody at a large firm who spends his or her days doing doc review, or any other task that I would consider mindless, or that would otherwise not be affected by the attorney's attention level, ability to read quickly, or ability to think creatively and incisively under time constraints. That's just not really how it works anymore, for the most part. Clients don't want to pay $350 an hour for a doc reviewer from a big firm, when they can get the same service and pay a fraction of that cost for contract attorneys (who are, incidentally, often more experienced anyway).

It may be that accommodations are worth it, because some "disabled" students who would nonetheless flourish in legal practice would be left behind without such accommodations (the guy with typing problems is perhaps the most likely such candidate in this thread). But it is silly to pretend that, once you get to a firm, the skills tested by law school exams are no longer relevant. The abilities to quickly analyze novel problems, to retain and to synthesize large amounts of relevant information, and finally to articulate your thoughts quickly are ALL critical components of success in any area of legal practice.


But you'd never write a 20 page brief in 3 hours without doing any sort of research or break to think about it.


Before I respond, I just want to make sure I won't be attacking a straw man. Is it your claim that because law practice doesn't entail working under the exact same conditions as taking a law school exam, the skills required in biglaw aren't meaningfully analogous to those tested by law school exams?

N.B. that I reject your premise anyway--biglaw often involves tasks where you have to produce useful, refined work product within 3-hour time-frames, with the only part of your claim that tracks reality being that this generally doesn't happen with briefs that would span 20 pages. It certainly could happen with work product that is much more similar to a law school exam/answer than a brief would ever be.

(line-edited slightly for clarity.)

Skyhook
Posts: 322
Joined: Wed Jul 21, 2010 11:30 am

Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby Skyhook » Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:24 pm

nymario wrote:
Skyhook wrote:
nymario wrote:Either time-pressure testing is valid and concessions are unfair (which I don't agree with) or time-pressure testing is invalid and you need to tell me why take home exams don't solve your problem with less chance of harm.


You misrepresent what you posted!
Better solutuons? All take home exams? Blah Blah Blah?
I'm all for giving equal op. However....
What were you emphasizing in that paragraph?

You have presented several strawmen and the tone of your posts is one of NO accommodations, just deal with it.
Did you question the examination type?
Have you bothered to read what I wrote?


I wrote a lot. Much of it becomes irrelevant under the solution I propose. That is that the best solution is take home exams. Tell me why that's not right, rather than re-telling me what you think I had to say.

I agree that the tone of my post is no accommodations. I explicitly stated that much and gave reasons for my position. You are simply repeating a logical step in my argument. I still say no accommodations because there is a possibility of prejudice and that a better solution exists.

I understand that you dispute my argument that accommodations can be prejudicial (despite a legion of people saying it is subject to abuse and my own assertion that it is impossibly difficult to arrive at a fair quantification) -- assuming that we agree to disagree on that portion of the argument, can you possibly move on to a proposed solution and explain why that doesn't give you everything you want?


I haven't commented on take home exams. They seem reasonable to me. We are not at odds over that.
But you are not beating the drum over take home exams are you?
It seems that are you saying that no matter what the disability, you should get no accommodations on the typical timed exams. Is that right?

09042014
Posts: 18282
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:47 pm

Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby 09042014 » Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:25 pm

Rule11 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
Rule11 wrote:Personally, I don't really care about test accommodations too much. Few people get them, from what I can tell.

I just find myself puzzled, however, at the portrayal of big law practice by several posters in this thread. Those who said that law school exams are nothing like big law--are you currently working in big law? Have you ever (summering emphatically does not count)?

Working under intense pressure, both in terms of time and otherwise, is a big part of the big law lifestyle. Your ability to perform under those conditions is a major component of your success in the workplace. Biglaw these days is generally not a slow grind at all. Many firms are understaffed, particularly at the junior levels. I don't know anybody at a large firm who spends his or her days doing doc review, or any other task that I would consider mindless, or that would otherwise not be affected by the attorney's attention level, ability to read quickly, or ability to think creatively and incisively under time constraints. That's just not really how it works anymore, for the most part. Clients don't want to pay $350 an hour for a doc reviewer from a big firm, when they can get the same service and pay a fraction of that cost for contract attorneys (who are, incidentally, often more experienced anyway).

It may be that accommodations are worth it, because some "disabled" students who would nonetheless flourish in legal practice would be left behind without such accommodations (the guy with typing problems is perhaps the most likely such candidate in this thread). But it is silly to pretend that, once you get to a firm, the skills tested by law school exams are no longer relevant. The abilities to quickly analyze novel problems, to retain and to synthesize large amounts of relevant information, and finally to articulate your thoughts quickly are ALL critical components of success in any area of legal practice.


But you'd never write a 20 page brief in 3 hours without doing any sort of research or break to think about it.


Before I respond, I just want to make sure I won't be attacking a straw man. Is it your claim that because law practice doesn't entail working under the exact same conditions as taking a law school exam, the skills required in biglaw aren't meaningfully analogous to those tested by law school exams?

N.B. that I reject your premise anyway--biglaw often involves tasks where you have to produce useful, refined work product within 3-hour time-frames, with the only part of your claim that tracks reality being that this generally doesn't happen with briefs that would span 20 pages. It certainly could happen with work product that is much more similar to a law school exam/answer than a brief would ever be.

(line-edited slightly for clarity.)


I mean that practice doesn't entail working under the exact same conditions. The reason extra timing is given is because small variation in time produces wildly different exam answers. Not that the skills don't match, because I'll take your word that it does.

It seems to me that it's taking something that is done at a quick pace (practice) and turning it into a mad dash.

Some, who for example can only type 10 words per minute, probably wouldn't have a problem keeping up with you in practice. But they'd get pwnd on an exam.

That extra time crunch is disproportionately effecting them because of their disability.

Rule11
Posts: 160
Joined: Mon Sep 15, 2008 2:25 pm

Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby Rule11 » Thu Jun 30, 2011 1:57 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Rule11 wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
Rule11 wrote:Personally, I don't really care about test accommodations too much. Few people get them, from what I can tell.

I just find myself puzzled, however, at the portrayal of big law practice by several posters in this thread. Those who said that law school exams are nothing like big law--are you currently working in big law? Have you ever (summering emphatically does not count)?

Working under intense pressure, both in terms of time and otherwise, is a big part of the big law lifestyle. Your ability to perform under those conditions is a major component of your success in the workplace. Biglaw these days is generally not a slow grind at all. Many firms are understaffed, particularly at the junior levels. I don't know anybody at a large firm who spends his or her days doing doc review, or any other task that I would consider mindless, or that would otherwise not be affected by the attorney's attention level, ability to read quickly, or ability to think creatively and incisively under time constraints. That's just not really how it works anymore, for the most part. Clients don't want to pay $350 an hour for a doc reviewer from a big firm, when they can get the same service and pay a fraction of that cost for contract attorneys (who are, incidentally, often more experienced anyway).

It may be that accommodations are worth it, because some "disabled" students who would nonetheless flourish in legal practice would be left behind without such accommodations (the guy with typing problems is perhaps the most likely such candidate in this thread). But it is silly to pretend that, once you get to a firm, the skills tested by law school exams are no longer relevant. The abilities to quickly analyze novel problems, to retain and to synthesize large amounts of relevant information, and finally to articulate your thoughts quickly are ALL critical components of success in any area of legal practice.


But you'd never write a 20 page brief in 3 hours without doing any sort of research or break to think about it.


Before I respond, I just want to make sure I won't be attacking a straw man. Is it your claim that because law practice doesn't entail working under the exact same conditions as taking a law school exam, the skills required in biglaw aren't meaningfully analogous to those tested by law school exams?

N.B. that I reject your premise anyway--biglaw often involves tasks where you have to produce useful, refined work product within 3-hour time-frames, with the only part of your claim that tracks reality being that this generally doesn't happen with briefs that would span 20 pages. It certainly could happen with work product that is much more similar to a law school exam/answer than a brief would ever be.

(line-edited slightly for clarity.)


I mean that practice doesn't entail working under the exact same conditions. The reason extra timing is given is because small variation in time produces wildly different exam answers. Not that the skills don't match, because I'll take your word that it does.

It seems to me that it's taking something that is done at a quick pace (practice) and turning it into a mad dash.

Some, who for example can only type 10 words per minute, probably wouldn't have a problem keeping up with you in practice. But they'd get pwnd on an exam.

That extra time crunch is disproportionately effecting them because of their disability.


Ok, it sounds to me like you're saying that although the skills tested may be the same (or same enough), the differentiation is more pronounced on law school exams (and the consequences of that differentiation are more significant). Is that right?

So my response comes in two parts. First, I don't disagree with the idea that sometimes accommodations may make sense. The goal of law school exams should be to differentiate students on the axis of lawyerly aptitude--if accommodations make exams more accurate in this regard, then, well, great. I concede that I'm skeptical, but I'm open-minded about it. After all, I know some brilliant people with learning disabilities. (Then again, not all of them seem like they would be able to thrive in a big law environment, though they sure can thrive in places where I couldn't.)

Where we disagree is in your premise that practice is not a "mad dash." I agree that the exact conditions of a law school exam (partner walks into your office with a fact pattern and says "I need well-organized analysis in three hours, don't consult the internet") are somewhat uncommon (though even that situation doesn't sound particularly far-fetched to me), but situations where the same skills are in play are routine. In the transactional context, this may mean, for example, conforming the "boilerplate" in three complex but rather different agreements within the next hour and a half because your clients are bankers and they don't care if you sleep. One can do that well, or one can do that poorly (or one can black out from the stress). There is most certainly a difference, and it definitely feels like a "mad dash" either way. Note that these are among the few moments where you have a chance to stand out and excel. You can of course survive without standing out, but then again people with ADHD (or trouble typing) can "survive" without being above median.

To me, this sounds a lot like law school exams. You get a short time-frame in which to demonstrate your abilities and your value. If you do poorly, the partner may not want to work with you again at all (note that in many cases, depending on how cruel the partner, this can be a much worse fate than losing a couple of points on your GPA). To reiterate: not every moment of practice is like this, but neither is every moment of law school. The important comparison is between the moments of each where scrutiny is highest (and most consequential). To put it another way, borrowing vernacular from 7th grade biology, advancement at law schools and a law firms alike looks more like punctuated equilibrium than evolution.

I'd be more inclined to conclude that this is a problem with big law practice than it is a problem with law school exams.

User avatar
bk1
Posts: 18406
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby bk1 » Thu Jun 30, 2011 2:04 pm

nymario wrote:
bk1 wrote:
nymario wrote:No, people *do* have a problem with it. Law School is a zero sum game. Giving some students a boost is necessarily at the expense of the people that they displace.

You act like the number of people who get accommodations is actually significant enough to have a non-marginal effect on your job hunt (hint: it's not).


Wrong. First, I said that it hasn't affected me personally.

Second, and most importantly, if the premise holds that it is possible that an accommodated student will receive a boost over some number of students and that this boost is *ever* overcompensating for the disability, then it necessarily holds that some number of students will be ranked lower than they otherwise would have been. That usually (but not always) means that a student who was previously top x% becomes top x+n% (where n is the interval to the next ranking breakdown). You say it is negligible -- tell that to the student who moved from the student who was 39/399 (top 9.7%-> 10% on the resume) to 40/399 (top 10.02%, aka top 15% on their resume), especially at schools that do not rank individually. That is absolutely the difference between a job and no job at a lot of schools. It's certainly the difference between grading on at my school and having to try to write on for a handful of slots.

This has a negligible chance of happening to any given student, and certainly didn't happen to me in my 1L year. But it has a decidedly non-negligible chance of happening to some students.


The chance of it happening is not negligible the effect it will have is negligible. And you're really trying to argue that the difference a 5% difference in class rank is the difference between a job and no job at all? I'll take a hit of that fine ass shit you're smoking.

nymario
Posts: 239
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:57 pm

Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby nymario » Thu Jun 30, 2011 2:58 pm

bk1 wrote:
The chance of it happening is not negligible the effect it will have is negligible. And you're really trying to argue that the difference a 5% difference in class rank is the difference between a job and no job at all? I'll take a hit of that fine ass shit you're smoking.


I'm sorry, but I disagree. LR vs. no-LR makes a huge difference. Are you arguing that someone prejudiced by this system should be ok taking an inferior job? Think specifically of the guy who now has to report top 15% instead of 10% and missed out on the last LR slot? What are you going to tell him/her?

(Ignore the job/no job dichotomy -- total straw man argument -- but OCI success vs. OCI strike out IS a real risk of falling that one place...)

User avatar
Mickey Quicknumbers
Posts: 2177
Joined: Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:22 pm

Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby Mickey Quicknumbers » Thu Jun 30, 2011 3:03 pm

nymario wrote:
bk1 wrote:
The chance of it happening is not negligible the effect it will have is negligible. And you're really trying to argue that the difference a 5% difference in class rank is the difference between a job and no job at all? I'll take a hit of that fine ass shit you're smoking.


I'm sorry, but I disagree. LR vs. no-LR makes a huge difference.

I'd love for you to prove there is a causal benefit of LR instead of just a correlation to high grades that would get hired anyways, which is not significantly diminished by 1-2 people in the class moving in front of you.

nymario
Posts: 239
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:57 pm

Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby nymario » Thu Jun 30, 2011 3:06 pm

Mickey Quicknumbers wrote:
nymario wrote:
bk1 wrote:
The chance of it happening is not negligible the effect it will have is negligible. And you're really trying to argue that the difference a 5% difference in class rank is the difference between a job and no job at all? I'll take a hit of that fine ass shit you're smoking.


I'm sorry, but I disagree. LR vs. no-LR makes a huge difference.

I'd love for you to prove there is a causal benefit of LR instead of just a correlation to high grades that would get hired anyways, which is not significantly diminished by 1-2 people in the class moving in front of you.


Is it your position that missing out on LR will cause no cognizable harm to that person? None? Really?

(my position is that even a little harm that is due to overcompensation is unacceptable -- I was under the presumption that nobody would reasonably claim that missing LR would not cause career harm. I'm still a little flabbergasted that someone actually took a contrary position to that)

09042014
Posts: 18282
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:47 pm

Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby 09042014 » Thu Jun 30, 2011 3:34 pm

Mickey Quicknumbers wrote:
nymario wrote:
bk1 wrote:
The chance of it happening is not negligible the effect it will have is negligible. And you're really trying to argue that the difference a 5% difference in class rank is the difference between a job and no job at all? I'll take a hit of that fine ass shit you're smoking.


I'm sorry, but I disagree. LR vs. no-LR makes a huge difference.

I'd love for you to prove there is a causal benefit of LR instead of just a correlation to high grades that would get hired anyways, which is not significantly diminished by 1-2 people in the class moving in front of you.


It would be interesting to look at schools that don't have grade on LR, and see the differences in outcomes.

User avatar
rayiner
Posts: 6184
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:43 am

Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby rayiner » Thu Jun 30, 2011 5:45 pm

Is it your claim... the skills required in biglaw aren't meaningfully analogous to those tested by law school exams?


Yes.

Skills required in biglaw:

1) Patience
2) Attention to detail
3) Anal-retentiveness

Law school exams don't test anything remotely similar to the skills required at a firm.

User avatar
rayiner
Posts: 6184
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:43 am

Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby rayiner » Thu Jun 30, 2011 5:48 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Mickey Quicknumbers wrote:
nymario wrote:
bk1 wrote:
The chance of it happening is not negligible the effect it will have is negligible. And you're really trying to argue that the difference a 5% difference in class rank is the difference between a job and no job at all? I'll take a hit of that fine ass shit you're smoking.


I'm sorry, but I disagree. LR vs. no-LR makes a huge difference.

I'd love for you to prove there is a causal benefit of LR instead of just a correlation to high grades that would get hired anyways, which is not significantly diminished by 1-2 people in the class moving in front of you.


It would be interesting to look at schools that don't have grade on LR, and see the differences in outcomes.


Like NU? LR at NU seems much less correlated with biglaw hiring because grades only contribute 50% of your score.

09042014
Posts: 18282
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:47 pm

Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby 09042014 » Thu Jun 30, 2011 6:08 pm

rayiner wrote:
Like NU? LR at NU seems much less correlated with biglaw hiring because grades only contribute 50% of your score.


Exactly like NU. But it is still hard to tell.

User avatar
BriaTharen
Posts: 750
Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2009 5:17 pm

Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby BriaTharen » Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:03 pm

Desert Fox wrote:
Mickey Quicknumbers wrote:
nymario wrote:
bk1 wrote:
The chance of it happening is not negligible the effect it will have is negligible. And you're really trying to argue that the difference a 5% difference in class rank is the difference between a job and no job at all? I'll take a hit of that fine ass shit you're smoking.


I'm sorry, but I disagree. LR vs. no-LR makes a huge difference.

I'd love for you to prove there is a causal benefit of LR instead of just a correlation to high grades that would get hired anyways, which is not significantly diminished by 1-2 people in the class moving in front of you.


It would be interesting to look at schools that don't have grade on LR, and see the differences in outcomes.

LSU doesn't have a grade on either. I'm really curious to see who makes it on.

User avatar
glitter178
Posts: 771
Joined: Sun Mar 07, 2010 8:21 pm

Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby glitter178 » Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:04 pm

beachbum wrote:
fatduck wrote:
nymario wrote:
uvahooo wrote:Your an idiot for not understanding what having a learning disability is.


You're an idiot because you don't know the difference between "your" and "you're".

he has a learning disability, you insensitive fuck


I lol'ed


me too.

User avatar
leobowski
Posts: 511
Joined: Mon Mar 09, 2009 2:11 am

Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby leobowski » Thu Jun 30, 2011 8:59 pm

Mickey Quicknumbers wrote:I'd love for you to prove there is a causal benefit of LR instead of just a correlation to high grades that would get hired anyways, which is not significantly diminished by 1-2 people in the class moving in front of you.



Are you freakin kidding me? Umad? Of course there's a causal relationship. Given two candidates with all else equal, and one has LR, who do you think has a leg up? A lot of times someone with coif+LR is going to be in a better position than someone at the very top of the class with no LR.

ColomboHeat
Posts: 83
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 2010 6:14 pm

Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby ColomboHeat » Thu Jun 30, 2011 9:15 pm

this thread is just ridiculous... if you really think a small handful of disabled students in your law class are going to prevent you from securing gainful employment by out ranking you with extended time on tests... you're hopeless from the start. life is just going to eat you up and spit you out. your insecurities probably make for a mighty fine dressing over all that cry baby salad.

not to mention... if you're going to hate on someone for incorrect grammar... the punctuation would need to go inside of the quotation mark.


also:

theyseemerollintheyhatin.jpg


if you've seen it, you know what i'm talking about.

09042014
Posts: 18282
Joined: Wed Oct 14, 2009 10:47 pm

Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby 09042014 » Fri Jul 01, 2011 11:29 am

leobowski wrote:
Mickey Quicknumbers wrote:I'd love for you to prove there is a causal benefit of LR instead of just a correlation to high grades that would get hired anyways, which is not significantly diminished by 1-2 people in the class moving in front of you.



Are you freakin kidding me? Umad? Of course there's a causal relationship. Given two candidates with all else equal, and one has LR, who do you think has a leg up? A lot of times someone with coif+LR is going to be in a better position than someone at the very top of the class with no LR.


X is true because of course X is true.

User avatar
fatduck
Posts: 4186
Joined: Mon Sep 13, 2010 10:16 pm

Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby fatduck » Fri Jul 01, 2011 11:31 am

Desert Fox wrote:
leobowski wrote:
Mickey Quicknumbers wrote:I'd love for you to prove there is a causal benefit of LR instead of just a correlation to high grades that would get hired anyways, which is not significantly diminished by 1-2 people in the class moving in front of you.



Are you freakin kidding me? Umad? Of course there's a causal relationship. Given two candidates with all else equal, and one has LR, who do you think has a leg up? A lot of times someone with coif+LR is going to be in a better position than someone at the very top of the class with no LR.


X is true because of course X is true.

modus pwned

luthersloan
Posts: 342
Joined: Thu May 27, 2010 6:43 pm

Re: Exams - Anyone else notice classmates missing?

Postby luthersloan » Fri Jul 01, 2011 11:48 am

fatduck wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:
leobowski wrote:
Mickey Quicknumbers wrote:I'd love for you to prove there is a causal benefit of LR instead of just a correlation to high grades that would get hired anyways, which is not significantly diminished by 1-2 people in the class moving in front of you.



Are you freakin kidding me? Umad? Of course there's a causal relationship. Given two candidates with all else equal, and one has LR, who do you think has a leg up? A lot of times someone with coif+LR is going to be in a better position than someone at the very top of the class with no LR.


X is true because of course X is true.

modus pwned


The highest form of argument.




Return to “Forum for Law School Students”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider] and 2 guests