Got an F - Dropping out....

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BruceWayne
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Re: Got an F - Dropping out....

Postby BruceWayne » Fri Jun 03, 2011 1:53 pm

dailygrind wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:
dailygrind wrote:
MTal wrote:Welcome to the legal field. You fuck up big enough even 1 time, in school or in practice, and your career is effectively over.


this is hardly unique to the law. you fuck up big enough in any field and your career is effectively over.



What are you talking about? Outside of egregious mistakes that reflect incompetence (like injuring a patient in residency or in medical school), one mistake in school no less, does not "end your career". A single exam written in a way that a professor subjectively dislikes, on a forced curve , could doom you in the legal field. That we're graded on a forced curve, and not our competency on the subject, as in every other educational field, automatically puts us in a uniquely tumultuous situation. In a lot of ways legal education is more like sports than it is any other educational field. We grade more on "talent" (and I'm being generous with that) and competition than on competency. That's not the model used in other fields until you get into the work force. And in that case you're at least being "graded" on objective results--what you can do for a client. On exams you're just getting graded on whatever it is that your professor wants/likes.
haus wrote:If this were true, hardly none of our national level politicians would be employed.

Heck, the CEO of the most valuable technical company was effectively kicked out of the company that he had founded, before having a successful comeback years later.


Exactly.


you know as well as i do how egregious an F is. i've never even heard of anyone getting anything less than a D on an exam they showed up for, and i think i've checked around 1000 grades looking at grade distribution patterns. frankly, the D's that I saw were extreme outliers already. an F doesn't reflect an exam that the professor subjectively dislikes - an F reflects an exam that has reached up, slapped the professor in the face, and then pissed in his cheerios (once again, this is why everyone has told this dude to fight it).



Mazrui and Tomiko Brown gave out multiple F's last spring alone. Jeffries, Geis, and Cohen give out multiple C's and C+s every term. They're not as uncommon as you think they are.

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dresden doll
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Re: Got an F - Dropping out....

Postby dresden doll » Fri Jun 03, 2011 1:55 pm

Desert Fox wrote:Would you retards stop trying to talk him out of dropping out. It's the right call.


Agreed. If he had no prospects outside of law, I might be persuaded into thinking that there's some value to sticking it out and shooting for something IBR-covered/non-grade conscious. But the guy has background in finance and a way of getting his old (probably relatively lucrative) job back. The rational choice here is to go back to it.

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dailygrind
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Re: Got an F - Dropping out....

Postby dailygrind » Fri Jun 03, 2011 1:59 pm

BruceWayne wrote:Mazrui and Tomiko Brown gave out multiple F's last spring alone. Jeffries, Geis, and Cohen give out multiple C's and C+s every term. They're not as uncommon as you think they are.


i've got the jeffries 2005 and 2006 data on a spreadsheet right in front of me, and he gives out less than 5% of his grades as C's and C+s, and from what i can tell he's more willing than most to give out low grades. i don't have the tomiko brown or mazrui data right in front of me, but i'd guess that if they gave F's, it was because people dropped out or cheated. you just don't get F's for nothing more than poor performance.

plum
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Re: Got an F - Dropping out....

Postby plum » Fri Jun 03, 2011 2:01 pm

BruceWayne wrote:Mazrui and Tomiko Brown gave out multiple F's last spring alone. Jeffries, Geis, and Cohen give out multiple C's and C+s every term. They're not as uncommon as you think they are.

i can understand if you were assigned these profs during 1L and had no choice, but there is absolutely no reason anyone should ever take an elective after seeing shit like this in the grade distributions published.

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itsirtou
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Re: Got an F - Dropping out....

Postby itsirtou » Fri Jun 03, 2011 2:02 pm

dailygrind wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:Mazrui and Tomiko Brown gave out multiple F's last spring alone. Jeffries, Geis, and Cohen give out multiple C's and C+s every term. They're not as uncommon as you think they are.


i've got the jeffries 2005 and 2006 data on a spreadsheet right in front of me, and he gives out less than 5% of his grades as C's and C+s, and from what i can tell he's more willing than most to give out low grades. i don't have the tomiko brown or mazrui data right in front of me, but i'd guess that if they gave F's, it was because people dropped out or cheated. you just don't get F's for nothing more than poor performance.


I'm actually at the school now in the library, I might look at grade distributions for these guys. Especially because I had TBN and now I'm a bit nervous.

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TheFutureLawyer
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Re: Got an F - Dropping out....

Postby TheFutureLawyer » Fri Jun 03, 2011 2:05 pm

dailygrind wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:Mazrui and Tomiko Brown gave out multiple F's last spring alone. Jeffries, Geis, and Cohen give out multiple C's and C+s every term. They're not as uncommon as you think they are.


i've got the jeffries 2005 and 2006 data on a spreadsheet right in front of me, and he gives out less than 5% of his grades as C's and C+s, and from what i can tell he's more willing than most to give out low grades. i don't have the tomiko brown or mazrui data right in front of me, but i'd guess that if they gave F's, it was because people dropped out or cheated. you just don't get F's for nothing more than poor performance.


maybe this should be asked in a seperate thread, but how common is cheating in law school? I'd imagine its extremely rare, mainly just because you only get one exam at the end and that's it. but I do hear that for LRW you're often given multiple assignments over the semester, do people often cheat on those?

btw, I'm not a cheater, though at my large public undergrad it seemed like about 1/4 of the students were chronic cheaters and got away with it.

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dresden doll
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Re: Got an F - Dropping out....

Postby dresden doll » Fri Jun 03, 2011 2:06 pm

if rumors at my school are correct, an F (or, rather, our equivalent of an F was given both in Contracts and Crim last year.

plum
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Re: Got an F - Dropping out....

Postby plum » Fri Jun 03, 2011 2:06 pm

itsirtou wrote:I'm actually at the school now in the library, I might look at grade distributions for these guys. Especially because I had TBN and now I'm a bit nervous.

i would def rather go with a prof that never hands out anything less than a B- (and even then only hands out a few B-). sure it means that less ppl might get As, but at least you can be relaxed of making median as long as you don't totally slack off, and it's actually not too bad to actually get an A in one of those classes if you really wanted to because usually most people put the least effort into such a class assuming they won't make above median, so that optical illusion can churn out an A, it's happened to me before and i'm by no means as hard-working or brilliant as others, it's just that in that particular class i think everyone thought they couldn't get above B+ because the prof hardly handed any out, but I probably spent most of my effort on that class just because i enjoyed the subject matter and would prefer to study it over something as killself as torts.

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dailygrind
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Re: Got an F - Dropping out....

Postby dailygrind » Fri Jun 03, 2011 2:08 pm

TheFutureLawyer wrote:
dailygrind wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:Mazrui and Tomiko Brown gave out multiple F's last spring alone. Jeffries, Geis, and Cohen give out multiple C's and C+s every term. They're not as uncommon as you think they are.


i've got the jeffries 2005 and 2006 data on a spreadsheet right in front of me, and he gives out less than 5% of his grades as C's and C+s, and from what i can tell he's more willing than most to give out low grades. i don't have the tomiko brown or mazrui data right in front of me, but i'd guess that if they gave F's, it was because people dropped out or cheated. you just don't get F's for nothing more than poor performance.


maybe this should be asked in a seperate thread, but how common is cheating in law school? I'd imagine its extremely rare, mainly just because you only get one exam at the end and that's it. but I do hear that for LRW you're often given multiple assignments over the semester, do people often cheat on those?

btw, I'm not a cheater, though at my large public undergrad it seemed like about 1/4 of the students were chronic cheaters and got away with it.


i've no idea. our lrw ungraded, and there's a fair amount of collaboration (discussing ideas) allowed, so it's not really possible to cheat. as for cheating on an exam, i honestly couldn't tell you. it's definitely not the sort of thing you'd want anybody to find out about, so if it exists, no one's telling me.

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itsirtou
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Re: Got an F - Dropping out....

Postby itsirtou » Fri Jun 03, 2011 2:08 pm

plum wrote:
itsirtou wrote:I'm actually at the school now in the library, I might look at grade distributions for these guys. Especially because I had TBN and now I'm a bit nervous.

i would def rather go with a prof that never hands out anything less than a B- (and even then only hands out a few B-).


unfortunately a lot of the professors he's talking about are required for 1L year

or at least TBN and Jeffries are (and I think Geis?), I didn't have the others

Oban
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Re: Got an F - Dropping out....

Postby Oban » Fri Jun 03, 2011 2:08 pm

It's possible this guy is a flame. However I know that several professors essentially failed kids first semester here at woostl. We aren't on a 4.0 scale, but a 70-100 point scheme. Below a 77 Is failing if i recall correctly. I looked at all of the grade distributions from first semester profs, and there were a handful of 74s-75s, and I even heard someone got a 70, though I cannot confirm that as it was anecdotal.

Luckily at wustl you don't get a zero on your transcript but a 74, looks much better than an F, even it it is the same.

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Re: Got an F - Dropping out....

Postby plum » Fri Jun 03, 2011 2:09 pm

TheFutureLawyer wrote:maybe this should be asked in a seperate thread, but how common is cheating in law school? I'd imagine its extremely rare, mainly just because you only get one exam at the end and that's it. but I do hear that for LRW you're often given multiple assignments over the semester, do people often cheat on those?

btw, I'm not a cheater, though at my large public undergrad it seemed like about 1/4 of the students were chronic cheaters and got away with it.

i have heard people joke in their post-exam drunken haze about how they totally googled exam answers etc. it's appalling, but i'm not surprised it happens since it's probably difficult to get caught doing it if you really were bent on it. at a school with a serious honor code such people should be expelled and never allowed to practice law. it's disgusting, but i guess it does happen.

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Re: Got an F - Dropping out....

Postby nickwar » Fri Jun 03, 2011 2:10 pm

TheFutureLawyer wrote:
dailygrind wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:Mazrui and Tomiko Brown gave out multiple F's last spring alone. Jeffries, Geis, and Cohen give out multiple C's and C+s every term. They're not as uncommon as you think they are.


i've got the jeffries 2005 and 2006 data on a spreadsheet right in front of me, and he gives out less than 5% of his grades as C's and C+s, and from what i can tell he's more willing than most to give out low grades. i don't have the tomiko brown or mazrui data right in front of me, but i'd guess that if they gave F's, it was because people dropped out or cheated. you just don't get F's for nothing more than poor performance.


maybe this should be asked in a seperate thread, but how common is cheating in law school? I'd imagine its extremely rare, mainly just because you only get one exam at the end and that's it. but I do hear that for LRW you're often given multiple assignments over the semester, do people often cheat on those?

btw, I'm not a cheater, though at my large public undergrad it seemed like about 1/4 of the students were chronic cheaters and got away with it.



Cheating won't help you in law school -- this isn't Geography. You're better off learning the material and doing it the straight way.


Also -- how exactly do you google exam answers? Our testing software locks down our computers, and I can't imagine googling an "answer" (which there probably isn't one) on your cell phone is a good way to spend testing time.

From the people I have heard of who cheat (and have been caught) -- not a single one did very well on exams. Cheating takes way too much time that could be better spent with a working knowledge of the material throwing down exam answers.

And why would you cheat on LRW assignments? You literally have no idea how other people will do. LRW, at least at our school, was a complete waste of time and a grading crap shoot, anyway. Turns out when you give 50 people with comparable intellects 8 pages to sum up 5 cases they all return virtually identical briefs.

If it's a take-home test, I'd imagine it's either ok to use google or that simply using google isn't going to be nearly enough to do well.
Last edited by nickwar on Fri Jun 03, 2011 2:14 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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dresden doll
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Re: Got an F - Dropping out....

Postby dresden doll » Fri Jun 03, 2011 2:11 pm

I really don't think Fs are as uncommon as people make them out to be. Then again, UChi is a place where Cs are given out as a matter of course, so perhaps my perspective is a bit skewed.

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Re: Got an F - Dropping out....

Postby flexityflex86 » Fri Jun 03, 2011 2:12 pm

On the front of people who failed repeatedly in power - you are permitted to fail once you have the power as long as you take responsibility. You just can't fail before you hit the entry level mark.

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dresden doll
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Re: Got an F - Dropping out....

Postby dresden doll » Fri Jun 03, 2011 2:13 pm

nickwar wrote:Cheating won't help you in law school -- this isn't Geography. You're better off learning the material and doing it the straight way.


Also -- how exactly do you google exam answers? Our testing software locks down our computers, and I can't imagine googling an "answer" (which there probably isn't one) on your cell phone is a good way to spend testing time.

If it's a take-home test, I'd imagine it's either ok to use google or that simply using google isn't going to be nearly enough to do well.


Completely agreed. Unless exam is closed book, I don't get how people would even profit from cheating.

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BruceWayne
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Re: Got an F - Dropping out....

Postby BruceWayne » Fri Jun 03, 2011 2:14 pm

dresden doll wrote:if rumors at my school are correct, an F (or, rather, our equivalent of an F was given both in Contracts and Crim last year.


I definitely believe that UChicago would do it. With their whole emphasis on rigor and their numerical grading system (which makes it harder for the uniformed to really understand what grade someone is getting) they are probably pretty apt to give them. And for all those taking note--no one at a school of the quality of UChicago is "not putting any semblance of effort" into an exam--especially in this economy. 0L's need a reality check about this whole "low grades don't happen unless you don't try" schtick being passed off. It's dangerous.


dailygrind wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:Mazrui and Tomiko Brown gave out multiple F's last spring alone. Jeffries, Geis, and Cohen give out multiple C's and C+s every term. They're not as uncommon as you think they are.


i've got the jeffries 2005 and 2006 data on a spreadsheet right in front of me, and he gives out less than 5% of his grades as C's and C+s, and from what i can tell he's more willing than most to give out low grades. i don't have the tomiko brown or mazrui data right in front of me, but i'd guess that if they gave F's, it was because people dropped out or cheated. you just don't get F's for nothing more than poor performance.


Jeffries gave out 4 C's, multiple C+s, and multiple B-s last semester alone.

flexityflex86
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Re: Got an F - Dropping out....

Postby flexityflex86 » Fri Jun 03, 2011 2:14 pm

plum wrote:
TheFutureLawyer wrote:maybe this should be asked in a seperate thread, but how common is cheating in law school? I'd imagine its extremely rare, mainly just because you only get one exam at the end and that's it. but I do hear that for LRW you're often given multiple assignments over the semester, do people often cheat on those?

btw, I'm not a cheater, though at my large public undergrad it seemed like about 1/4 of the students were chronic cheaters and got away with it.

i have heard people joke in their post-exam drunken haze about how they totally googled exam answers etc. it's appalling, but i'm not surprised it happens since it's probably difficult to get caught doing it if you really were bent on it. at a school with a serious honor code such people should be expelled and never allowed to practice law. it's disgusting, but i guess it does happen.

or they could just take away wireless internet. i can understand the temptation in a poor job market, and it can become like steroids in baseballs. in this sense, by not cheating you are damaging your career. cheating is still incorrect, but at the end of the day only the honest are penalized.

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Re: Got an F - Dropping out....

Postby nickwar » Fri Jun 03, 2011 2:16 pm

dresden doll wrote:
nickwar wrote:Cheating won't help you in law school -- this isn't Geography. You're better off learning the material and doing it the straight way.


Also -- how exactly do you google exam answers? Our testing software locks down our computers, and I can't imagine googling an "answer" (which there probably isn't one) on your cell phone is a good way to spend testing time.

If it's a take-home test, I'd imagine it's either ok to use google or that simply using google isn't going to be nearly enough to do well.


Completely agreed. Unless exam is closed book, I don't get how people would even profit from cheating.



Exactly. I personally hope there are as many people as possible in my classes cheating instead of working. None of them do very well and if they have to rely on google for their answers, they're probably screwed.

I've also never been one of these people who believed the "cheating is appalling" mentality the honor code tries to shove down everyone's throats. I don't cheat, but I realize it's a part of life. Plus it's true -- cheaters rarely get ahead in a profession such as ours -- and if they do, they eventually get caught.

Plus -- I truly don't understand how cheating, minus a few exceptional circumstances (fill in the blank exam?) could EVER help you in law school.

The cost/benefit just isn't there when you consider how much even a cheating allegation kills you.
Last edited by nickwar on Fri Jun 03, 2011 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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dresden doll
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Re: Got an F - Dropping out....

Postby dresden doll » Fri Jun 03, 2011 2:21 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
dresden doll wrote:if rumors at my school are correct, an F (or, rather, our equivalent of an F was given both in Contracts and Crim last year.


I definitely believe that UChicago would do it. With their whole emphasis on rigor and their numerical grading system (which makes it harder for the uniformed to really understand what grade someone is getting) they are probably pretty apt to give them. And for all those taking note--no one at a school of the quality of UChicago is "not putting any semblance of effort" into an exam--especially in this economy. 0L's need a reality check about this whole "low grades don't happen unless you don't try" schtick being passed off. It's dangerous.


One of my profs in 1L was a believer in Cs too. He can only do so much on a fixed curve, but he definitely pummels those 2L and 3L kids brave enough to take his courses.

I agree that the 'low grades don't happen unless you don't try' shtick is a little dangerous.

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dailygrind
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Re: Got an F - Dropping out....

Postby dailygrind » Fri Jun 03, 2011 2:22 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
dailygrind wrote:i've got the jeffries 2005 and 2006 data on a spreadsheet right in front of me, and he gives out less than 5% of his grades as C's and C+s, and from what i can tell he's more willing than most to give out low grades. i don't have the tomiko brown or mazrui data right in front of me, but i'd guess that if they gave F's, it was because people dropped out or cheated. you just don't get F's for nothing more than poor performance.


Jeffries gave out 4 C's, multiple C+s, and multiple B-s last semester alone.


how many is multiple? even if its like 5, his average number of C's given out from the available data would probably be around 7%. the worst grade anyone has ever gotten in his class is a C, from what we can tell. unless you're going to tell me that nobody tries to skate by in crim, that tells us that a C is pretty much the grade he gives to people who skate by.

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Re: Got an F - Dropping out....

Postby uvahooo » Fri Jun 03, 2011 2:30 pm

dailygrind wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:
dailygrind wrote:i've got the jeffries 2005 and 2006 data on a spreadsheet right in front of me, and he gives out less than 5% of his grades as C's and C+s, and from what i can tell he's more willing than most to give out low grades. i don't have the tomiko brown or mazrui data right in front of me, but i'd guess that if they gave F's, it was because people dropped out or cheated. you just don't get F's for nothing more than poor performance.


Jeffries gave out 4 C's, multiple C+s, and multiple B-s last semester alone.


how many is multiple? even if its like 5, his average number of C's given out from the available data would probably be around 7%. the worst grade anyone has ever gotten in his class is a C, from what we can tell. unless you're going to tell me that nobody tries to skate by in crim, that tells us that a C is pretty much the grade he gives to people who skate by.


Add Mahoney... he gives out a lot of c+....

plum
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Re: Got an F - Dropping out....

Postby plum » Fri Jun 03, 2011 2:30 pm

yes taking away wireless internet or blocking software that is used at other schools would be great, but at UVA we rely on an "honor code", hilarious.

uvahooo
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Re: Got an F - Dropping out....

Postby uvahooo » Fri Jun 03, 2011 2:32 pm

plum wrote:yes taking away wireless internet or blocking software that is used at other schools would be great, but at UVA we rely on an "honor code", hilarious.


How is it hilarious? People actually follow the honor code. Why would anyone NOT FOLLOW IT? It's better than having all those annoying software. I would much rather type in word then some other document.

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BruceWayne
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Re: Got an F - Dropping out....

Postby BruceWayne » Fri Jun 03, 2011 2:34 pm

plum wrote:yes taking away wireless internet or blocking software that is used at other schools would be great, but at UVA we rely on an "honor code", hilarious.


And ITE if people don't think cheating has stepped up then they're dreaming. Oh and for those who don't think it 's possible to cheat on an open book exam in a meaningful way--it's called copying and pasting--the most helpful way to cheat whether the exam is open book or not. The biggest hurdle on any law school exam is time; copying and pasting gives you a critical advantage in that regard.


uvahooo wrote:
plum wrote:yes taking away wireless internet or blocking software that is used at other schools would be great, but at UVA we rely on an "honor code", hilarious.


How is it hilarious? People actually follow the honor code. Why would anyone NOT FOLLOW IT? It's better than having all those annoying software. I would much rather type in word then some other document.


Lol that's cute.




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