Got an F - Dropping out.... Forum

[Moves like JAGger]

I would also speculate that if you're a 1L right now that you will be facing less competition upon graduation. About a year ago, I remember hearing that LS admissions were down 30% across the board. Imagine if this trend continues. There are fewer people going to law school and fewer people graduating each year which should mean fewer lawyers. The the number of available positions stays the same, there's going to be shorter supply and thus you will be more competitive. Obviously this is speculation but perhaps worth considering -- changes my be on the horizon.

I feel the need to add to this bit. Yeah it is true there are fewer people competing for the same jobs, but the recent BLS said the decline in NEED for legal jerbs is falling equally (there is a continuing statistic that says only 50% of you and your law school buds will get any legal job, period). Also add in that while a lot of unemployed grads on this website wash out or claim to, I know a LOT of c/0 2011-2013 peeps who working PT at volunteer legal clinics, doc review (until Recommind obliterates all of these jobs), and other stuff so as to make them competitive for entry level gigs. Yes there is arguably less competition for OCI and such... but if you notice these firms are also hiring WAY fewer SAs than before.

All I am sayin' is do not buy into the whole "fewer students = moar jobs for u guys" line that the deans are pushing on you. It is at best wrong and at worst a misrepresentation.

Indeed. There is a typo in my above quote -- should read "*If the number of available positions stays the same." I haven't reviewed data by the Bureau of Labor. Wishful thinking on my part. Too bad.

[conwaystern]

Don't be mentally weak. Fight back, finish what you start.

[Gorki]

Don't be mentally weak. Fight back, finish what you start.

-Unknown Minister advising Edward III, 1337

[Void]

I still feel like this thread is weaksauce without an explanation for the F. Did he fuck the professor's child or something?

[BlueLotus]

Don't be mentally weak. Fight back, finish what you start.

-Unknown Minister advising Edward III, 1337

Lulz.

[presidentk1]

One of my profs last semester gave out 3 Fs and 3 Ds in 1 class

[Cooleytruthsayer]

One of my profs last semester gave out 3 Fs and 3 Ds in 1 class

A fellow TTT I take it?

[presidentk1]

One of my profs last semester gave out 3 Fs and 3 Ds in 1 class

A fellow TTT I take it?

Yes, but honestly, rank aside ...i strongly disagree with dishing out grades like that unless the kid didn't turn in the exam

any good faith effort should get you at least a C

[Gorki]

One of my profs last semester gave out 3 Fs and 3 Ds in 1 class

A fellow TTT I take it?

Yes, but honestly, rank aside ...i strongly disagree with dishing out grades like that unless the kid didn't turn in the exam

any good faith effort should get you at least a C

Shitboomer marauders that run law schools do not care about good faith or efforts. That is why they make bank to intimidate groups of mostly 20-somethings with the Socratic method, while not knowing the answers to any of the questions themselves.

I dunno why they give out the low marks though. That grade, from a business perspective, is telling the consumer/student that the product/"education" is not worth it.

[haus]

One of my profs last semester gave out 3 Fs and 3 Ds in 1 class

A fellow TTT I take it?

Yes, but honestly, rank aside ...i strongly disagree with dishing out grades like that unless the kid didn't turn in the exam

any good faith effort should get you at least a C

So not knowing what you are doing deserves a C? Why not just have people submit a bunch of blank test books with their names in them, hand over the tuition money, and get inline for the degree?

[Gorki]

So not knowing what you are doing deserves a C? Why not just have people submit a bunch of blank test books with their names in them, hand over the tuition money, and get inline for the degree?

Because the student getting a C is not getting biglaw, gov't, or probably anything shy of mill/shit work (if they are lucky).

The student with the F will have to drop out of law school and remove it from their resume forever, and find some explanation for the semester/year gap.

No reason to add insult to injury. Employers understand the curve and know full well that C work in law school is fail; D-F work is a special place in hell reserved for candidates that are evidently dangerously dumb.

IMO there is a lot of legitimacy in arguing that law students are paying far too much to have that type of ruin on their meager lives. The "C" sufficiently punishes the student's performance without destroying them. Maybe I am wrong though.

[BlueLotus]

One of my profs last semester gave out 3 Fs and 3 Ds in 1 class

A fellow TTT I take it?

Yes, but honestly, rank aside ...i strongly disagree with dishing out grades like that unless the kid didn't turn in the exam

any good faith effort should get you at least a C

So not knowing what you are doing deserves a C? Why not just have people submit a bunch of blank test books with their names in them, hand over the tuition money, and get inline for the degree?

It seems like OP (and the bumper) did a lot more than submit a blank testbook with their name on it for the exams they failed.

Regardless, in the wake of this nightmarish situation, it looks like they both made a decision they were happy with, and I wish them well.

[Cooleytruthsayer]

So not knowing what you are doing deserves a C? Why not just have people submit a bunch of blank test books with their names in them, hand over the tuition money, and get inline for the degree?

Because the student getting a C is not getting biglaw, gov't, or probably anything shy of mill/shit work (if they are lucky).

The student with the F will have to drop out of law school and remove it from their resume forever, and find some explanation for the semester/year gap.

No reason to add insult to injury. Employers understand the curve and know full well that C work in law school is fail; D-F work is a special place in hell reserved for candidates that are evidently dangerously dumb.

IMO there is a lot of legitimacy in arguing that law students are paying far too much to have that type of ruin on their meager lives. The "C" sufficiently punishes the student's performance without destroying them. Maybe I am wrong though.

I can see that argument, but that is a complaint that those "Evil boomer employers" tend to have is that new hires tend to expect a reward just for showing up. "give me something, I earned it by not dieing when I went poo at lunch"

[BlueLotus]

new hires tend to expect a reward just for showing up. "give me something, I earned it by not dieing when I went poo at lunch"

typical shitboomer stereotype of millennials.

[Cooleytruthsayer]

new hires tend to expect a reward just for showing up. "give me something, I earned it by not dieing when I went poo at lunch"

typical shitboomer stereotype of millennials.

pretty much just quoting the opinions on this thread.

"but they turned in something" "but what about points for effort"

translation: where is my participation trophy coach? we lost the game, we still get a reward right?

[A. Nony Mouse]

Grading on a curve, as is done in law school, requires artificially placing students along a continuum. In most schools, most of the time, especially given the way that admissions clusters students along narrow GPA/LSAT bands, the student who gets the lowest grade in a given class has not turned failing-quality work. There's no good reason to artificially assign the bottom 2-3 students in a class Fs just to signal their place in the class when assigning Cs or C-s fulfills the same purpose. Now, if a student literally doesn't complete the exam, or turns in gibberish, sure, fail away. But at most law schools (especially those toward the top of the food chain), even the lowest-scored exam in a class is going to be reasonably competent in an absolute sense.

Besides, grades have different meanings in different contexts. In many Ph.D. programs, a B is a sign that something is seriously wrong and you should consider whether you're in the right place. Someone with a C average from a T14 is getting the same message. Again, Fs aren't necessary. (Keep in mind that at T1 law schools there's virtually no forced attrition.)

[Cooleytruthsayer]

Grading on a curve, as is done in law school, requires artificially placing students along a continuum. In most schools, most of the time, especially given the way that admissions clusters students along narrow GPA/LSAT bands, the student who gets the lowest grade in a given class has not turned failing-quality work. There's no good reason to artificially assign the bottom 2-3 students in a class Fs just to signal their place in the class when assigning Cs or C-s fulfills the same purpose. Now, if a student literally doesn't complete the exam, or turns in gibberish, sure, fail away. But at most law schools (especially those toward the top of the food chain), even the lowest-scored exam in a class is going to be reasonably competent in an absolute sense.

Besides, grades have different meanings in different contexts. In many Ph.D. programs, a B is a sign that something is seriously wrong and you should consider whether you're in the right place. Someone with a C average from a T14 is getting the same message. Again, Fs aren't necessary. (Keep in mind that at T1 law schools there's virtually no forced attrition.)

I know. Been there done that. Doesn't change my point on how people FEEL about it.

[Cooleytruthsayer]

the student who gets the lowest grade in a given class has not turned failing-quality work..)

Sometimes yes, yes they have. If a teacher feels the need to give it, there tends to be a reason. (especially when in despite of the factors you gave)

Are we to believe that no one in law school is capable of just plain turning in a shitty paper? Try that in a real court. You'll lose your case, your job, and possibly your license.

[cinephile]

the student who gets the lowest grade in a given class has not turned failing-quality work..)

Sometimes yes, yes they have. If a teacher feels the need to give it, there tends to be a reason. (especially when in despite of the factors you gave)

Are we to believe that no one in law school is capable of just plain turning in a shitty paper? Try that in a real court. You'll lose your case, your job, and possibly your license.

I don't get it. The C student is never getting a legal job anyway, so the real world legal problems don't matter. And for what it's worth, I know someone who turned in a written assignment containing only an introduction and no substance - he got a C+. That's what law school is all about. That's why people are so interested in this student's experience of getting an F, he must've insulted the professor in some way or committed plagiarism because Fs are unprecedented.

[mettasutta]

the student who gets the lowest grade in a given class has not turned failing-quality work..)

Sometimes yes, yes they have. If a teacher feels the need to give it, there tends to be a reason. (especially when in despite of the factors you gave)

Are we to believe that no one in law school is capable of just plain turning in a shitty paper? Try that in a real court. You'll lose your case, your job, and possibly your license.

I don't get it. The C student is never getting a legal job anyway, so the real world legal problems don't matter. And for what it's worth, I know someone who turned in a written assignment containing only an introduction and no substance - he got a C+. That's what law school is all about. That's why people are so interested in this student's experience of getting an F, he must've insulted the professor in some way or committed plagiarism because Fs are unprecedented.[/quote]

Certainly not at Cooleytruthsayer's school, which, instead of holding respectable admissions standards, has the audacity of flunking 1/3 of the class after 1L.

[BlueLotus]

the student who gets the lowest grade in a given class has not turned failing-quality work..)

Sometimes yes, yes they have. If a teacher feels the need to give it, there tends to be a reason. (especially when in despite of the factors you gave)

Are we to believe that no one in law school is capable of just plain turning in a shitty paper? Try that in a real court. You'll lose your case, your job, and possibly your license.

The C student is never getting a legal job anyway, so the real world legal problems don't matter.

Meh, I wouldn't say this is necessarily true. It seems like most "non-prestigious" public interest (i.e. legal aid) don't even ask for transcripts...the focus is more on demonstrated commitment to public service through internships, externships, clinics, foreign language ability, etc. NOT that these positions are easy to get or a "back-up plan" thanks to budget cuts, sequester, etc.--far from it. Just sayin that the hiring criteria is dramatically different.

[SEngland]

This thread is over 2 years old? Why the hell do people keep replying?

[Gorki]

This thread is over 2 years old? Why the hell do people keep replying?

IIRC it was bumped in 2012 by some diff student in similar circumstance, and then a few months ago when some dude at Tulane gave the most recent dood an "F" in civil procedure (it made it to AboveTheLaw).

More to the point just a lot of decent advice about when to avoid the sunken-cost fallacies. TheSeaLocust has a thread on this too going.

[nealric]

the student who gets the lowest grade in a given class has not turned failing-quality work..)

Sometimes yes, yes they have. If a teacher feels the need to give it, there tends to be a reason. (especially when in despite of the factors you gave)

Are we to believe that no one in law school is capable of just plain turning in a shitty paper? Try that in a real court. You'll lose your case, your job, and possibly your license.

People file low quality work with courts all the time. Ask anybody who has clerked. Poor quality isn't going to cost you your license unless you have a long history of malpractice level quality. Even in big law, one poor quality assignment probably won't cost you your job.

[Gorki]

the student who gets the lowest grade in a given class has not turned failing-quality work..)

Sometimes yes, yes they have. If a teacher feels the need to give it, there tends to be a reason. (especially when in despite of the factors you gave)

Are we to believe that no one in law school is capable of just plain turning in a shitty paper? Try that in a real court. You'll lose your case, your job, and possibly your license.

People file low quality work with courts all the time. Ask anybody who has clerked. Poor quality isn't going to cost you your license unless you have a long history of malpractice level quality. Even in big law, one poor quality assignment probably won't cost you your job.

This. It sounds like Cooleytruthsayer may not have had much practice with court filings... even from biglaw, unless its a major case I have seen some pretty janky "work product" come through my office from big firms. So much so as to include references to non-existent paragraghs on a pleadings or paragraphs of irrelevant citations---obv the dood was just using a form.

Sometimes I think state district courts give the same leniency to a filing by a lawyer as they would to a pro se party (and they will submit anywhere for a 2 clause run-on sentence to a 560 page complaint of pure nonsense).

Nobody gives a shit unless it becomes your SOP.

Thus, I stand by my point. "F" should not be given unless there is plagiarism, the student commits fraud or criminal conduct in the course of the class, or the student outright refuses to participate and their final exam is the equivalent of a two-word "fuck this" answer.