0L-3L advice you regret taking?

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schooner
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0L-3L advice you regret taking?

Postby schooner » Wed May 25, 2011 2:43 pm

To the current 1L-3Ls -- what advice did you receive and followed about 0L-3L (particularly re: study habits and taking exams) that you now regret? Why did it turn out to be bad advice for you?

stephencolbert
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Re: 0L-3L advice you regret taking?

Postby stephencolbert » Wed May 25, 2011 2:58 pm

in before the first "you should go to law school" response...

09042014
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Re: 0L-3L advice you regret taking?

Postby 09042014 » Wed May 25, 2011 3:00 pm

Making my own outlines. I'm 100% sure this is a personal thing, but for me it doesn't work at all.

Whatever small benefit I got from making my own, was countered by the extreme amount of time it takes, and they the gaps I missed making it. This time could be better spent learning someone else's and doing hypos.

theantiscalia
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Re: 0L-3L advice you regret taking?

Postby theantiscalia » Wed May 25, 2011 3:06 pm

Desert Fox wrote:Making my own outlines. I'm 100% sure this is a personal thing, but for me it doesn't work at all.

Whatever small benefit I got from making my own, was countered by the extreme amount of time it takes, and they the gaps I missed making it. This time could be better spent learning someone else's and doing hypos.


I'm inclined to agree with this. I got an "A" in a class last semester I didn't have an outline (mine or anybody else's) for. I think an outline is the way most people organize information, but it really isn't necessary. I just tabbed up my books (which include heavy reliance on supplements) and go. For the classes I did have outlines for, I almost never looked at them on the exam.

I think briefing every case is extremely excessive. I know very few people who did it after about the second week, but during the first two weeks, it was what everybody did.

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I.P. Daly
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Re: 0L-3L advice you regret taking?

Postby I.P. Daly » Wed May 25, 2011 3:26 pm

Desert Fox wrote:Making my own outlines. I'm 100% sure this is a personal thing, but for me it doesn't work at all.

Whatever small benefit I got from making my own, was countered by the extreme amount of time it takes, and they the gaps I missed making it. This time could be better spent learning someone else's and doing hypos.


I agree with this.

Most of my professors obsessed about outlining. One professor advised me to try writing out court decisions that we read to learn how to apply the black letter law to a set of facts. That advice did not help me as much as doing hypos.

The advice that I did not get, but wish that I had received: do as many hypos as possible. Books like the Exam Pro series and the Q&A's are great for hypos. Second semester, I found that writing short answers to the questions presented in the Exam Pro books really helped me memorize and apply black letter law, and to spot issues on exams. Some of my friends were great at creating their own hypos/hypo answers, but I felt and still feel more comfortable using the above mentioned books for practice.

Doing hypos is probably a personal preference though.

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Kilpatrick
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Re: 0L-3L advice you regret taking?

Postby Kilpatrick » Wed May 25, 2011 6:48 pm

I made my own outlines first semester and thought it was mostly a waste of time. Second semester I used other peoples and just fixed and expanded them where need be. I did well first semester though and I have no idea how I did second semester, so we'll see if I regret taking the advice.

Most other advice I would have regretted - like quintuple highlighting and briefing cases - I knew was stupid before I even started law school.

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BarbellDreams
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Re: 0L-3L advice you regret taking?

Postby BarbellDreams » Wed May 25, 2011 7:49 pm

I am not at all exaggerating when I make this statement: I regret no advice I received from TLS. In a way I kinda feel sorry for people who dont read this site more to get valuable information about everything before law school starts. Pretty much all of the advice I have received here has been absolutely golden and has really helped my grades and overall experience in law school.

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Tim0thy222
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Re: 0L-3L advice you regret taking?

Postby Tim0thy222 » Wed May 25, 2011 8:44 pm

BarbellDreams wrote:I am not at all exaggerating when I make this statement: I regret no advice I received from TLS. In a way I kinda feel sorry for people who dont read this site more to get valuable information about everything before law school starts. Pretty much all of the advice I have received here has been absolutely golden and has really helped my grades and overall experience in law school.


That's because you were selective about the advice you received though, right? There's plenty of topics on here with people advising 2 or more opposing sides (such as 0L prep vs no 0L prep), so it seems like no matter what you do you are rejecting a good portion of the advice on here.

That said, I second the fact this site is golden. So far no regrets about following the advice here.

Geist13
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Re: 0L-3L advice you regret taking?

Postby Geist13 » Wed May 25, 2011 9:30 pm

I regret thinking that supplements were actually helpful. Freer was good for civpro. Other than that they were a waste of time. Rarely would they go into as much depth as my professors wanted. They didn't hurt me, but I would have had a little more down time first semester had I not read them. Second semester I found it much more beneficial to go over the cases or case notes again.

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gwuorbust
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Re: 0L-3L advice you regret taking?

Postby gwuorbust » Wed May 25, 2011 9:48 pm

Tim0thy222 wrote:
BarbellDreams wrote:I am not at all exaggerating when I make this statement: I regret no advice I received from TLS. In a way I kinda feel sorry for people who dont read this site more to get valuable information about everything before law school starts. Pretty much all of the advice I have received here has been absolutely golden and has really helped my grades and overall experience in law school.


That's because you were selective about the advice you received though, right? There's plenty of topics on here with people advising 2 or more opposing sides (such as 0L prep vs no 0L prep), so it seems like no matter what you do you are rejecting a good portion of the advice on here.

That said, I second the fact this site is golden. So far no regrets about following the advice here.


umm, no. I feel like often where there are "two sides," one side is the TLSers who know what the fuck they are talking about (usually have 1k posts each and would say 0L prep is worthless) and the other side, which is 0Ls spouting off shit they have no idea what they are talking about. I also believe that most of the advice I've gotten from this site has been extremely valuable.

aliarrow
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Re: 0L-3L advice you regret taking?

Postby aliarrow » Wed May 25, 2011 9:53 pm

gwuorbust wrote:
Tim0thy222 wrote:
BarbellDreams wrote:I am not at all exaggerating when I make this statement: I regret no advice I received from TLS. In a way I kinda feel sorry for people who dont read this site more to get valuable information about everything before law school starts. Pretty much all of the advice I have received here has been absolutely golden and has really helped my grades and overall experience in law school.


That's because you were selective about the advice you received though, right? There's plenty of topics on here with people advising 2 or more opposing sides (such as 0L prep vs no 0L prep), so it seems like no matter what you do you are rejecting a good portion of the advice on here.

That said, I second the fact this site is golden. So far no regrets about following the advice here.


umm, no. I feel like often where there are "two sides," one side is the TLSers who know what the fuck they are talking about (usually have 1k posts each and would say 0L prep is worthless) and the other side, which is 0Ls spouting off shit they have no idea what they are talking about. I also believe that most of the advice I've gotten from this site has been extremely valuable.


I just don't think this is true with the 0L prep issue at least. I've seen very qualified posters on both sides of the issue (top of class at a solid school).

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Pizon
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Re: 0L-3L advice you regret taking?

Postby Pizon » Wed May 25, 2011 9:57 pm

I don't really regret anything, but if I had to pick something I'd say listening to my professor who advised us to "sit with" an 8-hour take home exam for an hour or two before writing anything. I did that, and had to rush my ass off at the end.

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kurla88
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Re: 0L-3L advice you regret taking?

Postby kurla88 » Wed May 25, 2011 10:01 pm

Desert Fox wrote:Making my own outlines. I'm 100% sure this is a personal thing, but for me it doesn't work at all.

Whatever small benefit I got from making my own, was countered by the extreme amount of time it takes, and they the gaps I missed making it. This time could be better spent learning someone else's and doing hypos.


+1

Although now that I have embraced using old outlines, I keep taking classes that have never been taught before or something. >.< Fail, self.

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Kilpatrick
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Re: 0L-3L advice you regret taking?

Postby Kilpatrick » Wed May 25, 2011 10:03 pm

aliarrow wrote:
gwuorbust wrote:
Tim0thy222 wrote:
BarbellDreams wrote:I am not at all exaggerating when I make this statement: I regret no advice I received from TLS. In a way I kinda feel sorry for people who dont read this site more to get valuable information about everything before law school starts. Pretty much all of the advice I have received here has been absolutely golden and has really helped my grades and overall experience in law school.


That's because you were selective about the advice you received though, right? There's plenty of topics on here with people advising 2 or more opposing sides (such as 0L prep vs no 0L prep), so it seems like no matter what you do you are rejecting a good portion of the advice on here.

That said, I second the fact this site is golden. So far no regrets about following the advice here.


umm, no. I feel like often where there are "two sides," one side is the TLSers who know what the fuck they are talking about (usually have 1k posts each and would say 0L prep is worthless) and the other side, which is 0Ls spouting off shit they have no idea what they are talking about. I also believe that most of the advice I've gotten from this site has been extremely valuable.


I just don't think this is true with the 0L prep issue at least. I've seen very qualified posters on both sides of the issue (top of class at a solid school).


Yeah I agree. I mean, nobody says you should take intensive 0L prep classes but some people recommend light prep like just reading the E&Es 0L summer, while others say you shouldn't study any substantive law at all. (FWIW I am in the latter camp but I have less than 1,000 posts so clearly no one should listen to me.)

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gwuorbust
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Re: 0L-3L advice you regret taking?

Postby gwuorbust » Wed May 25, 2011 10:14 pm

@ above posters. Reading Getting to Maybe is all the 0L prep that needs to be done.

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YourCaptain
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Re: 0L-3L advice you regret taking?

Postby YourCaptain » Wed May 25, 2011 10:28 pm

gwuorbust wrote:@ above posters. Reading Getting to Maybe is all the 0L prep that needs to be done.


No. I've steadily come to the conclusion that GTM is one of the larger ripoffs. You don't need it (and it's not even that helpful); if you know the material as well as you should by the time exams roll around the advice GTM gives you should be second nature.

You see an issue - could be A, looks like A, but is it? Good arguments on both side for A and not A. Argue both; someone smart and thoughtful will simply "show their work" and get the grade.

I think the E&Es are pretty big wastes of money; they're good for passive learning but because they constantly stress isolated issues (which is rare) you get accustomed to looking for isolated issues, and they're generally not terribly sophisticated in what they're looking for.

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gwuorbust
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Re: 0L-3L advice you regret taking?

Postby gwuorbust » Wed May 25, 2011 10:32 pm

YourCaptain wrote:
gwuorbust wrote:@ above posters. Reading Getting to Maybe is all the 0L prep that needs to be done.


No. I've steadily come to the conclusion that GTM is one of the larger ripoffs. You don't need it (and it's not even that helpful); if you know the material as well as you should by the time exams roll around the advice GTM gives you should be second nature.

You see an issue - could be A, looks like A, but is it? Good arguments on both side for A and not A. Argue both; someone smart and thoughtful will simply "show their work" and get the grade.

I think the E&Es are pretty big wastes of money; they're good for passive learning but because they constantly stress isolated issues (which is rare) you get accustomed to looking for isolated issues, and they're generally not terribly sophisticated in what they're looking for.


I never said it was a magic bullet. I could take it or leave it. but besides, possibly, GTM, I do not think that there are any resources that will help 0Ls. But hey, if they want to spend their summer memorizing the UCC more power to them. Not my time they're wasting.

dakatz
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Re: 0L-3L advice you regret taking?

Postby dakatz » Wed May 25, 2011 10:35 pm

The biggest mistake I made and what I regret the most is stupidly thinking that 0L prep was a good idea. Despite all the people who told me what a waste of time it was, my arrogance and hubris was just too great. I assumed I could get a leg up and learn some of the law in advance. Figured it could only help. It hurt much more than it helped. Its not the advice I regret since the TLS overwhelming majority opinion was to stay away from 0L prep. I regret not following the advice that was wisely given to me, and stupidly ignored. Worst of all, it took time away from actually getting an edge by doing things guaranteed to give me a leg up on my classmates, like networking, writing cover letters, really studying up on the structure of law school exams, etc.

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YourCaptain
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Re: 0L-3L advice you regret taking?

Postby YourCaptain » Wed May 25, 2011 10:41 pm

here's pro 0l advice: either stay at your job and save money, find a decent summer job, or relax and kick back.

make sure to purchase your casebooks & hornbooks/whatever and stick them in the trunk of your car so that you "kind of" feel like you've done 0l prep.

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thecilent
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Re: 0L-3L advice you regret taking?

Postby thecilent » Wed May 25, 2011 10:43 pm

dakatz wrote:really studying up on the structure of law school exams, etc.

plz explain best resources for this. tyia

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dood
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Re: 0L-3L advice you regret taking?

Postby dood » Wed May 25, 2011 11:22 pm

everything i read on TLS about doing well in law school. things in the lounge are cool, i like some people on this site too. but remember: 97% of the u the advice u get on TLS is from a 0L or 1L.

xyzbca
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Re: 0L-3L advice you regret taking?

Postby xyzbca » Wed May 25, 2011 11:30 pm

I'll get some pushback for this but I think E+E's are vastly overrated (with Civ. Pro. being the exception). I think they are too simplistic and I don't like them.

I'm top 10% at a T1.

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BruceWayne
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Re: 0L-3L advice you regret taking?

Postby BruceWayne » Wed May 25, 2011 11:43 pm

The biggest thing I would change would make is that I would have ignored the whole "not doing 0L prep". Looking back on it, it can only help you. Further, the students who were at the tip top of the class at my school overwhelmingly did 0L prep. The reality is that each semester in law school is very brief, and you don't have much time. Spending a lot of the semester learning black letter law puts you behind the ball. Knowing the black letter law isn't enough to even get you a D. You should be spending as much time as possible researching the professor's tendencies and preferences, researching the cutting edge arguments and policies in the law, and taking practice exams. This is how you make an exam shine. Simply applying law to fact and arguing both sides (which is, contrary to what many posters like to say, what almost everyone does--it's not some big secret) might be enough to get you a B or a B-. I also wish I had boosted up my typing speed. I had no idea how important this was. Frankly, if you type less than 50-60 WPM do not expect to receive grades higher than a B or B+ on traditional 1L exams. For the most part, quantity (as long as it's decent/on point) is the name of the game.

Oh and I truly believe that making outlines from scratch is a complete waste of time for most people, I did it first semester and it turned out horribly. I prefer using other people's outlines but focusing on class notes and reading notes. Just combine your class notes and reading notes and study from those. Use other people's outlines to check for anything that you've missed.
Last edited by BruceWayne on Wed May 25, 2011 11:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

DAJ_Summer
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Re: 0L-3L advice you regret taking?

Postby DAJ_Summer » Wed May 25, 2011 11:46 pm

thecilent wrote:
dakatz wrote:really studying up on the structure of law school exams, etc.

plz explain best resources for this. tyia


The best stuff are long posts or discussions on TLS. Not even GTM really gets to the heart of it.

jkay
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Re: 0L-3L advice you regret taking?

Postby jkay » Thu May 26, 2011 12:16 am

xyzbca wrote: ... I think E+E's are vastly overrated ... they are too simplistic ...

I'm top 10% at a T1.


They're not for you, bro.




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