Criminal law: attempted negligent homicide possible?

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saladfiend
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Criminal law: attempted negligent homicide possible?

Postby saladfiend » Thu May 12, 2011 1:49 pm

Intuitively I would think there can be no such thing as attempted negligent homicide. Is it possible under the MPC?

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Borhas
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Re: Criminal law: attempted negligent homicide possible?

Postby Borhas » Thu May 12, 2011 2:39 pm

attempted negligence is impossible

attempt requires purpose

purpose requires knowledge... negligence requires a lack of knowledge...

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Unitas
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Re: Criminal law: attempted negligent homicide possible?

Postby Unitas » Thu May 12, 2011 2:50 pm

Borhas wrote:attempted negligence is impossible

attempt requires purpose

purpose requires knowledge... negligence requires a lack of knowledge...


http://www.thedailynews.cc/Main.asp?Sec ... leID=38243
http://articles.petoskeynews.com/2007-0 ... y_24051186

Seems like the charge is quite possible. Dunno the instances behind them or if they are always some part of a plea deal.

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Borhas
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Re: Criminal law: attempted negligent homicide possible?

Postby Borhas » Thu May 12, 2011 3:03 pm

the journalist likely fucked up, the people in that article died, so it's probably just involuntary manslaughter or its equivalent

that or Michigan's crim laws are retarded

amonynous_ivdinidual
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Re: Criminal law: attempted negligent homicide possible?

Postby amonynous_ivdinidual » Thu May 12, 2011 3:06 pm

no. the hallmark of attempt crimes is mens rea. you need specific intent for attempt crimes. no such thing as attempted negligent homicide.

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Unitas
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Re: Criminal law: attempted negligent homicide possible?

Postby Unitas » Thu May 12, 2011 3:20 pm

People v. Hernadez, 614 P.2d 900 wrote:The determinative issue on this appeal is whether the offense of which defendant Tina Hernandez was convicted, “attempted criminally negligent homicide,” was legally cognizable in Colorado. We conclude that, under the applicable statutes, the charge was a logical and legal impossibility. Therefore, we reverse Hernandez' conviction of that offense.


Haha.

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DoubleChecks
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Re: Criminal law: attempted negligent homicide possible?

Postby DoubleChecks » Thu May 12, 2011 3:24 pm

yeah im pretty sure you cant have attempt for crimes like negligent or reckless manslaughter (or felony murder for that matter)

mens rea to conduct and result = purpose for attempt so...

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Unitas
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Re: Criminal law: attempted negligent homicide possible?

Postby Unitas » Thu May 12, 2011 3:35 pm

State v. Easley, 2008 WL 324406 wrote:Next, we address appellant's claim that he was entitled to an instruction on attempted negligent homicide in regards to the attempted murder charge. Although appellant provides no case law indicating the existence of the crime of attempted negligent homicide, we note that R.C. 2923.02 and its committee comments indicate that such a crime exists. R.C. 2903.05(A) defines “negligent homicide,” the underlying offense to attempted negligent homicide, and states that “[n]o person shall negligently cause the death of another or the unlawful termination of another's pregnancy by means of a deadly weapon or dangerous ordnance.” Attempted negligent homicide is a second-degree misdemeanor. R.C. 2903.05(B); 2923.02(E)(1).


2923.02 Attempt wrote:Purposely or knowingly attempting to commit a crime is sufficient to make the attempt an offense if the crime attempted requires knowledge, recklessness, or negligence for its commission.


It appears Ohio thinks it is a crime?
Maybe I read it too quick.

kaiser
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Re: Criminal law: attempted negligent homicide possible?

Postby kaiser » Thu May 12, 2011 3:41 pm

Asked my crim law professor just to confirm but attempted negligent homicide is a contrdiction in terms. You can't attempt something that by definition you don't know about. The very definition of the two words makes them mutually exclusive.

missinglink
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Re: Criminal law: attempted negligent homicide possible?

Postby missinglink » Thu May 12, 2011 3:53 pm

kaiser wrote:Asked my crim law professor just to confirm but attempted negligent homicide is a contrdiction in terms. You can't attempt something that by definition you don't know about. The very definition of the two words makes them mutually exclusive.

Agreed. I asked my Crim professor about this during the semester.

By definition, if you didn't mean to do it (i.e. involuntary manslaughter, criminal negligent homicide), you can't have had the intent (purpose or knowledge) to commit the crime.

But then again, prosecutors are wily as hell, so I wouldn't be surprised if there were instances of someone trying. :mrgreen:

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vamedic03
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Re: Criminal law: attempted negligent homicide possible?

Postby vamedic03 » Thu May 12, 2011 4:11 pm

Borhas wrote:attempted negligence is impossible

attempt requires purpose

purpose requires knowledge... negligence requires a lack of knowledge...


Tell that to Colorado:

People v. Thomas, 729 P.2d 972

"We granted certiorari to determine whether attempted reckless manslaughter is a cognizable crime in the state of Colorado. We conclude that it is, and hold that the court of appeals erred in reversing the defendant's conviction for that crime." Id. at 973.

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Borhas
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Re: Criminal law: attempted negligent homicide possible?

Postby Borhas » Thu May 12, 2011 4:15 pm

what's up with all these dumbass states, can't tell if it's just a really inelegant way to punish novel situations or if they just don't "get it"

keg411
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Re: Criminal law: attempted negligent homicide possible?

Postby keg411 » Thu May 12, 2011 4:23 pm

vamedic03 wrote:
Borhas wrote:attempted negligence is impossible

attempt requires purpose

purpose requires knowledge... negligence requires a lack of knowledge...


Tell that to Colorado:

People v. Thomas, 729 P.2d 972

"We granted certiorari to determine whether attempted reckless manslaughter is a cognizable crime in the state of Colorado. We conclude that it is, and hold that the court of appeals erred in reversing the defendant's conviction for that crime." Id. at 973.


Not going to read that whole case, but maybe the "reckless manslaughter" in CO was some kind of version of voluntary manslaughter? Because intent is necessary for voluntary manslaughter.

I'd say 99% of the time the answer is "no", but in cases like that OH statute above and possibly CO, it's probably a good idea to read the applicable statute first, just in case the legislature appears to intend this type of thing to be a crime (how, I don't really know, but whatever).

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quiver
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Re: Criminal law: attempted negligent homicide possible?

Postby quiver » Thu May 12, 2011 4:43 pm

common law: majority view is that it isn't possible

MPC: conduct requires purpose and result requires purpose or "belief" (MPC 5.01). Our professor explained "belief" to be basically the same as knowledge. Therefore, theoretically, negligent homicide shouldn't be possible under the MPC either

Of course some states might be weird.
Last edited by quiver on Thu May 12, 2011 4:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Grizz
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Re: Criminal law: attempted negligent homicide possible?

Postby Grizz » Thu May 12, 2011 4:45 pm

Majority view is no, though a minority view is that you can attempt/intend your reckless or negligent conduct basically. That's why my prof told me.

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quiver
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Re: Criminal law: attempted negligent homicide possible?

Postby quiver » Thu May 12, 2011 4:46 pm

rad law wrote:Majority view is no, though a minority view is that you can attempt/intend your reckless or negligent conduct basically. That's why my prof told me.
Yeah, same. The dissent in one of the cases we read argued this; the majority thought it was BS though.

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Grizz
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Re: Criminal law: attempted negligent homicide possible?

Postby Grizz » Thu May 12, 2011 4:51 pm

quiver wrote:
rad law wrote:Majority view is no, though a minority view is that you can attempt/intend your reckless or negligent conduct basically. That's why my prof told me.
Yeah, same. The dissent in one of the cases we read argued this; the majority thought it was BS though.

I think so too, but hey, what do I know?

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vanwinkle
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Re: Criminal law: attempted negligent homicide possible?

Postby vanwinkle » Thu May 12, 2011 4:53 pm

vamedic03 wrote:
Borhas wrote:attempted negligence is impossible

attempt requires purpose

purpose requires knowledge... negligence requires a lack of knowledge...

Tell that to Colorado:

People v. Thomas, 729 P.2d 972

"We granted certiorari to determine whether attempted reckless manslaughter is a cognizable crime in the state of Colorado. We conclude that it is, and hold that the court of appeals erred in reversing the defendant's conviction for that crime." Id. at 973.

I'm glad you had the cite ready, it means I didn't have to go dig up my old Crim Law outline to find it. This was what came to mind for this, but if I remember right, Colorado is one of like two states that allow this charge. It's definitely the minority view.




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