FRCP Attack Outline?

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moandersen
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FRCP Attack Outline?

Postby moandersen » Sat Apr 16, 2011 10:48 am

I found a sweet FRCP outline for Civ Pro that I plan to try and cut down to around 50 pages (its currently over 70), but I was wondering if anyone knows of (or has) a good condensed attack outline of the FRCP to complement a longer, more detailed outline. I figure I will just make one myself, but I thought I would check here first before I spend a ton of time making one. Thanks.

mythosopher
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Re: FRCP Attack Outline?

Postby mythosopher » Sat Apr 16, 2011 6:50 pm

A FRCP outline that's 70 pages? Why don't you just bring in a copy of the rules? It'd be shorter.

cornellbeez
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Re: FRCP Attack Outline?

Postby cornellbeez » Sat Apr 16, 2011 9:31 pm

No. For Civ Pro, I literally memorized all the rules. I don't see the point of having a shorter outline when it's a statute-oriented class.

cornellbeez
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Re: FRCP Attack Outline?

Postby cornellbeez » Sat Apr 16, 2011 9:33 pm

mythosopher wrote:A FRCP outline that's 70 pages? Why don't you just bring in a copy of the rules? It'd be shorter.


Maybe he has explanations? I don't think I've ever used an outline shorter than 80 pages, except for maybe torts. (I'm a 2L, and I've taken tax, secured transactions, and classes like that.) In my experience, profs like to test the nitty-gritty for statute-focused classes. I'd recommend doing practice problems for civ pro though. I don't think I spent enough time learning how to apply the rules.
Last edited by cornellbeez on Sat Apr 16, 2011 9:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

BlueDiamond
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Re: FRCP Attack Outline?

Postby BlueDiamond » Sat Apr 16, 2011 9:38 pm

any chance youre willing to send this outline to me

the lantern
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Re: FRCP Attack Outline?

Postby the lantern » Sun Apr 17, 2011 12:34 am

I don't even get how you do this. I had a 1.5 page attack outline and a 10 page outline. How the hell do you make use of a 70 page outline (not that I really used my outline much at all anyways)?

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moandersen
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Re: FRCP Attack Outline?

Postby moandersen » Sun Apr 17, 2011 9:46 am

the lantern wrote:I don't even get how you do this. I had a 1.5 page attack outline and a 10 page outline. How the hell do you make use of a 70 page outline (not that I really used my outline much at all anyways)?


I have no idea - which is why Im cutting it down to around 50 pages. The outline has all the rules written out and the explanations for each section of the rule, so its really detailed.

Care to share the attack outline?

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romothesavior
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Re: FRCP Attack Outline?

Postby romothesavior » Sun Apr 17, 2011 10:01 am

the lantern wrote:I don't even get how you do this. I had a 1.5 page attack outline and a 10 page outline. How the hell do you make use of a 70 page outline (not that I really used my outline much at all anyways)?

+1. I got good grades last semester, and I don't think my three outlines combined to be 70 pages. I have never understood people like cornellbeez. But hey, if it works, more power to them.

mythosopher
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Re: FRCP Attack Outline?

Postby mythosopher » Sun Apr 17, 2011 11:14 am

romothesavior wrote:
the lantern wrote:I don't even get how you do this. I had a 1.5 page attack outline and a 10 page outline. How the hell do you make use of a 70 page outline (not that I really used my outline much at all anyways)?

+1. I got good grades last semester, and I don't think my three outlines combined to be 70 pages. I have never understood people like cornellbeez. But hey, if it works, more power to them.

I agree. If your outline is 50+ pages then you're not outlining, you're copying your notes, which is not synthesizing.

03121202698008
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Re: FRCP Attack Outline?

Postby 03121202698008 » Sun Apr 17, 2011 11:26 am

Eh, I have a 50 page outline for property. It is a basic synthesis of my notes with additional information added/explained. I leave short summaries of the cases in so as I'm studying the outline I can reference them to clarify/explain. I rarely use during the exam, but if i need to I have an index so a few extra pages doesn't slow me down. (I put the case summaries at the end of each section so I don't have to go through a ton to find an answer if I need one.)

My torts outline is like 20 pages. But for property we spent a lot of time covering the policy/rationale behind each hold and I want to be able to reference that if appropriate.

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BarbellDreams
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Re: FRCP Attack Outline?

Postby BarbellDreams » Sun Apr 17, 2011 12:24 pm

IMO outlines should be 8-10 with anything over 15 being counterproductive/irrelevant. I got good grades last semester and my outlines were all between 6-12 pages.

keg411
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Re: FRCP Attack Outline?

Postby keg411 » Sun Apr 17, 2011 12:41 pm

My large outlines were all around 20-30 pages, but I would make smaller outlines on top of those that were 10-15. But I used spacing between sections so I could read my outlines.

So far my outlines this semester seem longer. I need to fix that.

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Re: FRCP Attack Outline?

Postby 03121202698008 » Sun Apr 17, 2011 12:42 pm

BarbellDreams wrote:IMO outlines should be 8-10 with anything over 15 being counterproductive/irrelevant. I got good grades last semester and my outlines were all between 6-12 pages.


And clearly what works for you must work for everyone else. How do you outline something like Ks in 10 pages? You'd essentially just have the index of the restatement with nothing else.

IMO theres a difference between an outline and an attack/quick reference outline.

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BarbellDreams
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Re: FRCP Attack Outline?

Postby BarbellDreams » Sun Apr 17, 2011 12:54 pm

blowhard wrote:
BarbellDreams wrote:IMO outlines should be 8-10 with anything over 15 being counterproductive/irrelevant. I got good grades last semester and my outlines were all between 6-12 pages.


And clearly what works for you must work for everyone else. How do you outline something like Ks in 10 pages? You'd essentially just have the index of the restatement with nothing else.

IMO theres a difference between an outline and an attack/quick reference outline.


I did K's in 12 pages. Open book exam with entire restatement and UCC at the end of book so all I needed was to put the # in the outline so I could find it in the book quickly if needed and not actually write out the entire thing inside the outline itself.

My point was that while I agree different things work for different people, I dont see a logical explanation of a 50+ page outline working for anyone, ever. At that point you may as well just print out and bring your notes for the semester in as your "outline" cause you're not going to be able to flip through 50+ pages during a test anyway.

Also, there is a difference between attack outlines and regular outlines. My attack outlines were 2 pages.

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romothesavior
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Re: FRCP Attack Outline?

Postby romothesavior » Sun Apr 17, 2011 7:23 pm

BarbellDreams wrote:IMO outlines should be 8-10 with anything over 15 being counterproductive/irrelevant. I got good grades last semester and my outlines were all between 6-12 pages.

+1. I think my outlines last semester were too long, and my longest was like 25 pages. My con law one this semester will probably be a 5-6 page "attack" style outline with these flow chart/checklist things. Maybe different people learn differently, but I don't feel like just copying and pasting notes into this big messy word doc is really all that helpful. I can't stand when I open an outline on our school's outline database and the thing is just a long, incoherent, unorganized rambling. It's like, that's not an outline.

the lantern
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Re: FRCP Attack Outline?

Postby the lantern » Mon Apr 18, 2011 1:03 pm

10 page contracts outline (got an A, we don't have A+) Textbook: Farnsworth
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid= ... MzZm&hl=en

8 page civ pro outline (got an A-) -- ONE SEMESTER CIV PRO, didn't really use a textbook
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid= ... MTRj&hl=en

1) sorry they are pdfs, but that is how I made them.
2) For civ pro I also used the little FRCP rulebook that I got from my Westlaw rep
For contracts I also used my UCC statute book and a UCC 2-207 flowchart that my study group made
3) I initially made attack outlines for these classes as well, but I have a really good memory and I pretty much memorized where everything was in my outline and found the attack outlines to be useless on practice exams, so I never ended up using them
4) YMMV, these work for me

03121202698008
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Re: FRCP Attack Outline?

Postby 03121202698008 » Mon Apr 18, 2011 2:18 pm

the lantern wrote:10 page contracts outline (got an A, we don't have A+) Textbook: Farnsworth
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid= ... MzZm&hl=en

8 page civ pro outline (got an A-) -- ONE SEMESTER CIV PRO, didn't really use a textbook
https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid= ... MTRj&hl=en

1) sorry they are pdfs, but that is how I made them.
2) For civ pro I also used the little FRCP rulebook that I got from my Westlaw rep
For contracts I also used my UCC statute book and a UCC 2-207 flowchart that my study group made
3) I initially made attack outlines for these classes as well, but I have a really good memory and I pretty much memorized where everything was in my outline and found the attack outlines to be useless on practice exams, so I never ended up using them
4) YMMV, these work for me


Those look nice but not sure they'd help me that much. I don't reference back to my outline much but when I do I need more info/clarification than what I get from those. Turning a page doesn't take a lot of time either, so I find I'm better to use normal size text, bolder headings, and use color to indicate really important things/elements to be addresses. I don't see the benefit in cramming everything into 10 pages.

To each their own I guess.

Like my Crim from last semester:
https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B7xpj6bbLLfxOTUxMGNlYmYtNzAzOC00YmQ2LTlhZGQtYjg5OTAxMDQwODE3&hl=en&authkey=CJW69rQB

I could have made it shorter but I preferred the charts comparing CL/MPC directly, etc.

the lantern
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Re: FRCP Attack Outline?

Postby the lantern » Mon Apr 18, 2011 4:39 pm

Yeah the reason I put everything in such small type is because I rarely, if ever, look at my outlines during exams. I pretty much just memorize where everything is (photographic memory) and can find anything I need quickly by memory + bold headings. Can definitely see how your way would work though, I just couldn't memorize as well with 20+ pages. I think I might put some of your crim law outline to good use though since I have crim law this semester. Cheers!

keg411
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Re: FRCP Attack Outline?

Postby keg411 » Mon Apr 18, 2011 6:07 pm

blowhard wrote:Those look nice but not sure they'd help me that much. I don't reference back to my outline much but when I do I need more info/clarification than what I get from those. Turning a page doesn't take a lot of time either, so I find I'm better to use normal size text, bolder headings, and use color to indicate really important things/elements to be addresses. I don't see the benefit in cramming everything into 10 pages.


FWIW, I do the same thing. Give me bold text, organization, and something functional any day. The exam where I memorized my outline was my worst exam grade. The "conventional wisdom" doesn't always work for everyone.




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