Help me drop out of law school

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vamedic03
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Re: Help me drop out of law school

Postby vamedic03 » Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:31 pm

flcath wrote:
vamedic03 wrote:OP, you need to take some time to do a little bit of 'soul searching.' If you want to be a doctor, then you shouldn't be in law school. You need to figure out what you want to do, but you also need to realize that life is not a binary decision - there are professions outside of law and medicine.
No, I really want to do medicine; it was law that was the crappy, arbitrary, default decision. I was in a position where I knew I wouldn't get into MS, but I took the stupid fucking LSAT (also w/o prep), and--since law requires neither any pre-requisite classes OR a good gpa in the classes you do take--and realized that, omg, I can get into prestigious schools w/o doing anything. At least I didn't go to Cornell, where I'd be racking up $50K/yr. in debt.

vamedic03 wrote:(1) MCAT of 34 won't get you into Harvard, but it will get you into plenty of allopathic medicine programs - even with a 3.2.
I think I'd have to retake it (3 year expiration), but I'm sure I could match it or beat it with some prep. I seriously don't see any program in the nation, MD or DO, admitting me w/ my GPA. This matches what I've been told by adcomms and advisors.

vamedic03 wrote:(2) Carefully research your postbac options - a lot of postbacs are designed for people without hard science backgrounds rather than just low GPA's.
Yeah, but some are designed for me. Penn, for example, has both programs.

vamedic03 wrote:(3) Consider applying to osteopathic medicine programs. DO's are still licensed physicians, and while you might not get as prestigious of residencies, I know plenty of DO's who are anesthesiologists, radiologists, and (though a non ROAD specialty) a couple of DO cardiac surgeons.
I'd do it if it meant I could apply now and get in, or if I was ever in a situation where I could get into DO but not MD. However, right now I couldn't get either, and after a post-bacc I'd probably be able to get both.



I know plenty of DO's / DO students with crap GPAs and lower MCATs and funky undergrads.

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Lawquacious
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Re: Help me drop out of law school

Postby Lawquacious » Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:32 pm

flcath wrote:medicine is not a shit profession populated by losers who possess no actual skills and who will all be unemployed when they graduate


:lol: Bitter are we?

Not intending to laugh at your misfortune, and I don't feel like I have clear-cut advice for you, but I do wonder if maybe your attitude is making things more difficult for you. If I were in your position I imagine I may try to stick with it and then just add an MD to JD, but if you are truly realizing that you have no interest in law and started law school for the wrong reasons then maybe cutting your losses now is the right thing to do. However, if it is just out of fear that you will be outside of the top 10% after this semester (which admittedly I am afraid of myself), then I personally don't think that is a good enough reason to drop out.

keg411
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Re: Help me drop out of law school

Postby keg411 » Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:39 pm

flcath wrote:(a) It'd be two years, since I'm already locked in for the rest of 1L.
(b) Regret aversion
(c) Risk aversion
(d) As immoral as this sounds (b/c it makes it seem like I don't care at all where my family's money goes): just b/c they'll pay for education, doesn't mean they'd give me the money. Part in parcel with that--at least if I want them to keep paying for it (not necessary for MS, but always desirable)--is the fact that they have to be satisfied with my 'progress', i.e., not think of me as a 'quitter' (which maybe I am, but that still doesn't make honoring sunk costs a logical decision). Yeah, this is immature, juvenile, adults can't be living for their parents, blah, blah, but it's the facts if I want to avoid the debt.


Honestly, it sounds like you shouldn't have gone to law school at all. You are in law school and regret not going to med school; and you think if you decide to go to med school you will regret not finishing law school. You are going to have to choose one.

As for your parents; if you are really concerned what they think... ask them about it and tell them what you are thinking. Especially if they are paying for your education.

But in the end, you have to make a decision for you. If you really want to be a doctor, then drop out of law school and start preparing for med school. If you want to be a lawyer, then stay in law school. As for the "lay prestige" factor; I doubt med school admissions are going to care that you went to ND Law school. In fact, they will probably wonder why you got a JD and did nothing with it and are now applying to med school.

flcath
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Re: Help me drop out of law school

Postby flcath » Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:40 pm

Lawquacious wrote:
flcath wrote:medicine is not a shit profession populated by losers who possess no actual skills and who will all be unemployed when they graduate


:lol: Bitter are we?

Not intending to laugh at your misfortune, and I don't feel like I have clear-cut advice for you, but I do wonder if maybe your attitude is making things more difficult for you. If I were in your position I imagine I may try to stick with it and then just add an MD to JD, but if you are truly realizing that you have no interest in law and started law school for the wrong reasons then maybe cutting your losses now is the right thing to do. However, if it is just out of fear that you will be outside of the top 10% after this semester (which admittedly I am afraid of myself), then I personally don't think that is a good enough reason to drop out.

The academic study of law is fine; it's a lot more interesting than biochem. But I have no particular interest in practicing (it's not my dream to be a lawyer), there's an absurd surplus of us competing for an ever-shrinking pool of jobs, we aren't respected, needed or wanted by the public, the culture is atrocious, and the work isn't meaningful.

I really feel like when I'm 80 years old I'll look back on where I am now and wonder why I chose to dedicate my life to something okay (if one is even charitable enough to describe law as that) when I could have had something great.

Plan2008
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Re: Help me drop out of law school

Postby Plan2008 » Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:51 pm

flcath wrote:The academic study of law is fine; it's a lot more interesting than biochem. But I have no particular interest in practicing (it's not my dream to be a lawyer), there's an absurd surplus of us competing for an ever-shrinking pool of jobs, we aren't respected, needed or wanted by the public, the culture is atrocious, and the work isn't meaningful.

I really feel like when I'm 80 years old I'll look back on where I am now and wonder why I chose to dedicate my life to something okay (if one is even charitable enough to describe law as that) when I could have had something great.



I was doing law to ADD meaning. Of fuck, what do I do now? You ruined it for me. :evil:

I was watching an episode of Chicago Hope about 10 years ago and the heart surgeon guy brings his little girl to work. She is talking to this little boy who needs heart surgery and her dad walks in. She tells the dad to tell the boy that he's the best--so the dad reluctantly tells the boy, "yeah, I'm the best." Well the dad is not the boys dr. but the girl asks him to help with the surgery in front of the scared little boy, and again, he reluctantly agrees. The last scene of the show, the dr. walks into his darkened office in his bloodied scrubs and the little girl is sitting in his huge chair pulling the switch on the tiny desk lamp off and on. She flicks it on as he enters and she says, "you saved him didn't you daddy?," He pauses for a couple seconds and says, "Yeah, I saved him."


Go be a doctor, if that is your passion. Don't waste one more minute.

plum
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Re: Help me drop out of law school

Postby plum » Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:58 pm

flcath wrote:why I chose to dedicate my life to something okay (if one is even charitable enough to describe law as that) when I could have had something great.

i don't necessarily think doing colonoscopies or whatever is "great"... i mean yeah obviously it's vital, we all need a doctor when we're sick, but we just as well need a lawyer when we're facing serious legal problems. both careers obviously demand a severe amount of time and dedication and if you don't like the thing that you'll be spending 90% of your time doing then yah you will be miserable doing it. but i don't see how spending that time doing medicine is any better or worse than law. the only bitterness seems to be coming from the job potentials, job market etc. but if you are near the top of your class that shouldn't be a concern. and if it's about the difference in earning potential between lawyers and doctors, then that's legit, i guess if you are concerned with maximizing income that's a valid factor to consider. but against I don't think someone who graduated at the top of their class will be impoverished. i dunno. i was admitted into med schools but decided to go to law school because i just wasn't interested in spending all my time learning science and anatomy and what not, it wasn't exactly fascinating and given that i wasn't sure how i would survive putting in sooooo much time and energy into it my whole life. and for what? at least if i did law i would be spending that time/energy studying/writing/thinking about stuff that's actually remotely intellectually interesting to me. this is a highly subjective and personal decision. if you feel like you would absolutely prefer to be a doctor and spend your time studying medicine etc., then you should totally go for it and not waste your time torturing yourself with law school and doing something you dislike.

BeenDidThat
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Re: Help me drop out of law school

Postby BeenDidThat » Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:59 pm

flcath wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:
flcath wrote:medicine is not a shit profession populated by losers who possess no actual skills and who will all be unemployed when they graduate


:lol: Bitter are we?

Not intending to laugh at your misfortune, and I don't feel like I have clear-cut advice for you, but I do wonder if maybe your attitude is making things more difficult for you. If I were in your position I imagine I may try to stick with it and then just add an MD to JD, but if you are truly realizing that you have no interest in law and started law school for the wrong reasons then maybe cutting your losses now is the right thing to do. However, if it is just out of fear that you will be outside of the top 10% after this semester (which admittedly I am afraid of myself), then I personally don't think that is a good enough reason to drop out.

The academic study of law is fine; it's a lot more interesting than biochem. But I have no particular interest in practicing (it's not my dream to be a lawyer), there's an absurd surplus of us competing for an ever-shrinking pool of jobs, we aren't respected, needed or wanted by the public, the culture is atrocious, and the work isn't meaningful.

I really feel like when I'm 80 years old I'll look back on where I am now and wonder why I chose to dedicate my life to something okay (if one is even charitable enough to describe law as that) when I could have had something great.


You need to get out of law school. I don't know what else you should do with yourself, but you should get out of law school. You're ripping on the profession, and you obviously don't want to be a lawyer. I don't know what else you should do. Maybe you need more real world experience to figure out what you want to do, or maybe you already know that you want to be a doctor. That's up to you. But you need to get out of law school.

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LLB2JD
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Re: Help me drop out of law school

Postby LLB2JD » Sat Feb 05, 2011 7:09 pm

You'd get into plenty (I mean PLENTY) of med schools (MD or DO) with your current credentials. As a matter of fact, with money in some places. Anybody on here who says otherwise does not know what s/he is talking about.

nonprofit-prophet
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Re: Help me drop out of law school

Postby nonprofit-prophet » Sat Feb 05, 2011 7:12 pm

keg411 wrote:If you want to be a doctor, why are you in law school at all? And why didn't you try to find a way to get into med school with your grades earlier than this? I don't know if I trust this post-Bacc thing because I know a High MCAT/low GPA med friend who couldn't get into US MD programs (however, she is from another country with well-respected med programs, i.e. NOT the islands, and was able to do that). If she could have just done a post-BACC to get her GPA up and acceptances to US schools, I'm sure she would have. (She was a BME major at Hopkins, so it's not like she didn't have the pedigree minus the GPA).

Med/Law are totally different professions. I don't get the overlap or how going to one school would "help" one get into another in any way.


So because your friend didn't do it, you don't think it's an option? Wow...

Well my brother is doing one at an Ivy and it absolutely helps your science GPA. He has raised his considerably. Some of his friends that did it the year before him raised their science GPAs enough to get into top-10 med schools. It isn't an easy program at all, but if you put the effort in, it will open doors.

flcath
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Re: Help me drop out of law school

Postby flcath » Sat Feb 05, 2011 7:22 pm

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Last edited by flcath on Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

plum
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Re: Help me drop out of law school

Postby plum » Sat Feb 05, 2011 7:31 pm

flcath wrote:the mundane aspects of medicine excite me and still seem meaningful to me, while those of law (doc review, brief drafting and proof-reading) do not.

i think this is a really key insight, and it's great that you are having it! i wish more people would think in these terms instead of the "glamorous" aspects. if you are ok doing the mundane aspects of something then chances are it is a good choice. i would say bottom line we all have to realize how many hours of our lives will be put into our careers and should aim to choose something that won't make us miserable for all of those hours. if we can find that then it's a win.

rose711
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Re: Help me drop out of law school

Postby rose711 » Sat Feb 05, 2011 7:34 pm

So the real reason you don't drop out of law school is because you can't get into medical school or a school you want to be in? But you want to be a doctor.
Man, you need to step back and read all that your are writing here, you clearly do not want to be a lawyer -for that reason alone you should leave school.
Law really isn't a back-up plan for life.

The thing is you asked for people to help you drop out and when they do, you argue with them.

So, I will just wish you well.

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sanjola
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Re: Help me drop out of law school

Postby sanjola » Sat Feb 05, 2011 7:36 pm

flcath wrote:I just finished first semester at my T22 school around top 15% (estimated, ND doesn't rank). With similar performance this year I'd estimate I'll be on the bubble for both law review and getting a job through OCI. I get about 75% off on tuition here, and my family pays the remaining ~$10K; I will graduate with around $35K in debt, maybe less.

I went to an average sTTTate school for UG, majored in biochem, and finished with around a 3.2 (just over a 3.0 in science GPA). I took the MCAT (the med school test) w/o prep and got a 34, which is slightly below the median for Hopkins/Harvard-type places and certainly a fine score for most places. Unfortunately--as medicine is not a shit profession populated by losers who possess no actual skills and who will all be unemployed when they graduate--even a great MCAT cannot overcome a sub-par science GPA.

I am now set on entering a post-bacc program to raise my science GPA and go to med school: these programs are abundant (they exist at top schools like Harvard, Hopkins, Penn, et al.), immensely successful in their placement rates (70-90% is not unusual), and last 1-2 years. I am also the prime candidate for these programs, since by their nature they don't demand a high GPA, but instead use the MCAT as the primary vetting criterion.

My main question is should I finish out law school first? I'm meeting with the ND pre-med ppl next Friday, but I'm guessing that they won't tell me to drop out of LS (too risky as advice). Also, as much as this might seem like a no-brainer, there are very real benefits to staying in law school:
(a) risk-aversion: it appears I have a decent back-up, particularly if I can land something at OCI... also, my UG pedigree is obviously not very good
(b) soft factor: it sounds stupid, and it isn't in line with the prestige perceptions on TLS, but a JD from ND sounds very impressive and interesting to med school adcomms (LAY PRESTIGE FTW!)
(c) time: though it may seem counter-intuitive, I'd actually be better off applying after a few years, to let my initial grades 'cool off'... there is actually data to suggest that this is more effective (it makes sense, when you step back and realize that med school admissions are about finding the best doctors, not finding the best statistics to inflate your rankings in a for-profit magazine)

Please advise.



Yeah, like everyone else said, get out now. Do you really want to add 2 1/2 more years of school on top of 6+ years in medical school?

I would mention this situation in your application. I would think med adcomms would find it impressive.

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vamedic03
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Re: Help me drop out of law school

Postby vamedic03 » Sat Feb 05, 2011 7:36 pm

flcath wrote:
LLB2JD wrote:You'd get into plenty (I mean PLENTY) of med schools (MD or DO) with your current credentials. As a matter of fact, with money in some places. Anybody on here who says otherwise does not know what s/he is talking about.

While I really do appreciate (and am surprised by) the unusual optimism ITT, I gotta tell you that I think you all are delusional. First of all, you basically can't even apply to public schools other than the ones in your own state, due to extremely strict regs on OOS med students (the stats on OOS admits to UF are similar to Harvard students). Secondly, there's an LSN for med students, as well as data from the horse's mouth (LinkRemoved) that say I won't get in. These match what pre-med advisors and actual adcomms (at FSU med, which is both very low-ranked and my alma mater) have told me.

I apologize for "trashing" the profession (except for the practical, job-getting part, which completely deserves to be trashed), but the fact is that while the 'glamorous' aspects of both professions (surgery, arguing a jury trial) appeal to me, the mundane aspects of medicine excite me and still seem meaningful to me, while those of law (doc review, brief drafting and proof-reading) do not.


Your "data from the horse's mouth" indicates that you're within an SD of both the mean MCAT and GPA for matriculants which supports our 'optimism'.

Also, I think you are delusion as to the mundane aspects of healthcare. Personally, I would rather do doc review and due diligence all day than deal with the crappy aspects of medicine.

plum
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Re: Help me drop out of law school

Postby plum » Sat Feb 05, 2011 7:48 pm

vamedic03 wrote:Also, I think you are delusion as to the mundane aspects of healthcare. Personally, I would rather do doc review and due diligence all day than deal with the crappy aspects of medicine.

i personally agree with this, but i respect if OP comes out differently on the matter.

keg411
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Re: Help me drop out of law school

Postby keg411 » Sat Feb 05, 2011 7:50 pm

nonprofit-prophet wrote:So because your friend didn't do it, you don't think it's an option? Wow...

Well my brother is doing one at an Ivy and it absolutely helps your science GPA. He has raised his considerably. Some of his friends that did it the year before him raised their science GPAs enough to get into top-10 med schools. It isn't an easy program at all, but if you put the effort in, it will open doors.


I just have never heard of it and figured it would have been an avenue she would pursue. Maybe it's just not that well known and she didn't know about it. I dunno, I never looked into med admissions; all I know is that she got a high MCAT and had a low uGPA and couldn't get into any US MD programs (she also did 2 years in the Peace Corps).

flcath
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Re: Help me drop out of law school

Postby flcath » Sat Feb 05, 2011 7:58 pm

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Last edited by flcath on Mon Nov 21, 2011 3:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Borhas
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Re: Help me drop out of law school

Postby Borhas » Sat Feb 05, 2011 8:13 pm

sounds like you've made your decision, though it seems like you are only staying through 1L because you can chill out and have your COL covered (which I admit sounds pretty cushy)

in any case... god speed, brother

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northwood
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Re: Help me drop out of law school

Postby northwood » Sat Feb 05, 2011 8:19 pm

it is clear that you want to leave law school, and try your hand at medical school. Give medical school your best shot, and see how it goes. You may end up in it, or you may not make it. Either way, its clear that you dont want to be a lawyer. So going to law school would not be for you. The thing to focus on is leaving ND without slamming nad locking the door shut. that way you can go back if it doesnt work out.

best of luck

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Lonagan
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Re: Help me drop out of law school

Postby Lonagan » Sun Feb 06, 2011 4:28 pm

OP thinks he's too good for law school. OP will not be happy until he drops out and tries something he feels is worthy of him. Good luck.

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ResolutePear
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Re: Help me drop out of law school

Postby ResolutePear » Sun Feb 06, 2011 4:30 pm

Lonagan wrote:OP thinks he's too good for law school. OP will not be happy until he drops out and tries something he feels is worthy of him. Good luck.


If only we could all feel the same way, the world would be a much more productive place.

flcath
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Re: Help me drop out of law school

Postby flcath » Mon Feb 07, 2011 2:22 am

Lonagan wrote:OP thinks he's too good for law school. OP will not be happy until he drops out and tries something he feels is worthy of him. Good luck.

Sorry if it seems that way, FRIEND.

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Veyron
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Re: Help me drop out of law school

Postby Veyron » Mon Feb 07, 2011 2:29 am

If you finish, even with 75% tuition, you will still have 100k of debt after COA expenses. PBPM + Med school will give you another 350k at minimum. Just saying, JD --> MD is probably not the credited idea.

flcath
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Re: Help me drop out of law school

Postby flcath » Mon Feb 07, 2011 2:35 am

Veyron wrote:If you finish, even with 75% tuition, you will still have 100k of debt after COA expenses. PBPM + Med school will give you another 350k at minimum. Just saying, JD --> MD is probably not the credited idea.

Average med school debt was $139K as of 2007 (according to AMA). And I'll have less debt after LS than many folks have from college. Not that this justifies staying, of course.

I have decision paralysis. At least I have the rest of this semester (and summer, I guess) to think about it.

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Veyron
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Re: Help me drop out of law school

Postby Veyron » Mon Feb 07, 2011 2:44 am

flcath wrote:
Veyron wrote:If you finish, even with 75% tuition, you will still have 100k of debt after COA expenses. PBPM + Med school will give you another 350k at minimum. Just saying, JD --> MD is probably not the credited idea.

Average med school debt was $139K as of 2007 (according to AMA). And I'll have less debt after LS than many folks have from college. Not that this justifies staying, of course.

I have decision paralysis. At least I have the rest of this semester (and summer, I guess) to think about it.


1/4 million dollars then, not nearly as bad.




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